Author Topic: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done  (Read 2275 times)

Offline doug s.

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2020, 01:32:36 PM »
you can take my name off the list.  i have just listened to the first 7 songs of the marc cohn album; no way i could sit and listen to this even once, let alone the twice or more, necessary to do a meaningful comparison.  just not my cuppa.

thanks anyway,

doug s.

Offline malloy

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2020, 08:59:27 PM »
]The OWC Elite Pro is one of the best sounding drive enclosures available.  So says my digital guru Eric Hider.  He has listened to everything and the OWC is his choice due to the controller.  It does sound better than what I was using...

Hi Dave,

Is the matching OWC optical drive ok as well? I keep hearing some Pioneer model (that doesn't fit the OWC) as being great as well. Or is the choice of optical drive not as critical as the controller of the enclosure?

Then there is the question of the power supply and usb connection to the drive, correct?

Paul

Offline TrueAudio

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2020, 09:00:20 PM »
  Is this not what a music server does. Rips to bit perfect then to a SSD like the Innuos Server.

charles
That's the entire point of this thread that I started:

"99% of the copied CDs sound worse than the original when played on a quality Hi-Fi system. Is it the fault of digital extraction? How to know? Knowing whether the file has been extracted to the nearest bit 100% identical to that of the original audio CD is impossible, failing to be able to compare with the file of the master tape. Error analysis tools are simple indicators. Counting errors C2 is only an index which measures imperfections, approximations, but which does not predict musicality."

"The particular music lover lacks a tool of comparison, of reference. Only those who navigate the music industry can listen to master files to compare with their commercial CDs. Wanting to evaluate what we have extracted with what others have extracted from the same CD is in no way a guarantee of accuracy (see service accurate ripp). Getting the same number will simply mean that others have done the same and got the same. Alas the law of the greatest number is not the guarantee of a perfect extraction especially if one is looking for something as difficult to measure as the notion of musicality."

The field of ripping, digital audio extraction (DAE in English) has always been neglected, because we mistakenly believed to have identified all the parameters. This blissful self-satisfaction was so firmly anchored in people's minds that the DAE remained frozen, untouched by any innovation that took into account what really mattered, namely musicality, far beyond the illusory "Bit perfect" or other "Accurate rip ".

He's saying that there's unmeasureable (by any test equipment/software analysis, but the ear can hear the improvements) analog components of the ripped WAV file that are part of every "bit perfect" rip.  Any website that specializes in computer DAE (i.e. hydrogenaudio) will relegate such talk completely to the loony bin, but this guy set out to take his drive apart and divorce it from its factory power supply, created his own batter power supply, (IMO I think you could get great results with a 'good' supply plugged into a Digibuss, but his could be better, who knows) and constructed an elaborate vibrational dissipation system, created a faraday shield around the drive electronics within his custom chassis, as well as somehow utilizing magnets as he described.  I would hazard a guess and say that with these implementations, the ripped WAV file would be less damaged because he "created a blacker background (environment)" so-to-speak in which the digital data was extracted and laid down in its new form as magnetic storage.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2020, 09:06:09 PM by TrueAudio »

Offline P.I.

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2020, 09:40:33 PM »
you can take my name off the list.  i have just listened to the first 7 songs of the marc cohn album; no way i could sit and listen to this even once, let alone the twice or more, necessary to do a meaningful comparison.  just not my cuppa.

thanks anyway,

doug s.
OK.  Too bad... 😔. If you want to send me two copies (preferably from the same production lot) of preferred music Iíll be happy to do my thing to them and send them back.  Just let me know.
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline P.I.

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2020, 09:52:10 PM »
]The OWC Elite Pro is one of the best sounding drive enclosures available.  So says my digital guru Eric Hider.  He has listened to everything and the OWC is his choice due to the controller.  It does sound better than what I was using...

Hi Dave,

Is the matching OWC optical drive ok as well? I keep hearing some Pioneer model (that doesn't fit the OWC) as being great as well. Or is the choice of optical drive not as critical as the controller of the enclosure?

Then there is the question of the power supply and usb connection to the drive, correct?

Paul
I have no knowledge of their optical drives.  Iíll ask my guy and let you know what he knows.
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Offline P.I.

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2020, 09:53:52 PM »
  Is this not what a music server does. Rips to bit perfect then to a SSD like the Innuos Server.

charles
That's the entire point of this thread that I started:

"99% of the copied CDs sound worse than the original when played on a quality Hi-Fi system. Is it the fault of digital extraction? How to know? Knowing whether the file has been extracted to the nearest bit 100% identical to that of the original audio CD is impossible, failing to be able to compare with the file of the master tape. Error analysis tools are simple indicators. Counting errors C2 is only an index which measures imperfections, approximations, but which does not predict musicality."

"The particular music lover lacks a tool of comparison, of reference. Only those who navigate the music industry can listen to master files to compare with their commercial CDs. Wanting to evaluate what we have extracted with what others have extracted from the same CD is in no way a guarantee of accuracy (see service accurate ripp). Getting the same number will simply mean that others have done the same and got the same. Alas the law of the greatest number is not the guarantee of a perfect extraction especially if one is looking for something as difficult to measure as the notion of musicality."

The field of ripping, digital audio extraction (DAE in English) has always been neglected, because we mistakenly believed to have identified all the parameters. This blissful self-satisfaction was so firmly anchored in people's minds that the DAE remained frozen, untouched by any innovation that took into account what really mattered, namely musicality, far beyond the illusory "Bit perfect" or other "Accurate rip ".

He's saying that there's unmeasureable (by any test equipment/software analysis, but the ear can hear the improvements) analog components of the ripped WAV file that are part of every "bit perfect" rip.  Any website that specializes in computer DAE (i.e. hydrogenaudio) will relegate such talk completely to the loony bin, but this guy set out to take his drive apart and divorce it from its factory power supply, created his own batter power supply, (IMO I think you could get great results with a 'good' supply plugged into a Digibuss, but his could be better, who knows) and constructed an elaborate vibrational dissipation system, created a faraday shield around the drive electronics within his custom chassis, as well as somehow utilizing magnets as he described.  I would hazard a guess and say that with these implementations, the ripped WAV file would be less damaged because he "created a blacker background (environment)" so-to-speak in which the digital data was extracted and laid down in its new form as magnetic storage.
The differences in SQ back in the day with rips from CDs were largely influenced by the software being used.  Just making a copy from another disc produced tons of errors and they were quite obvious.

A whole new world opened up for me whan I got a Cary 306 CD player to replace my Rotel 990.  The level of detail was amazing and I could easily hear all of the SQ rip differences that the 990 had obscured.

I started doing mods to my ripping system and I built a Mini-ITX computer with a bare bones Windows XP operating system.  I started trying to get better SQ from rips when I bought a Plextor drive that was much better than the generic one in my PC.  Then rips got much better when Exact Audio Copy (EAC) came along. I built a linear supply for the Plextor and an enclosure out of Baltic birch that I damped with automotive sound deadening sheets.  Those two mods combined with shielding the ribbon cable were eye opening for me.

Then I left the Dark Side and got a late 2012 Core I7 Mac mini w/16G RAM and a Mach 2 software package. That was a completely different animal.  The mini, without a jungle of cables running around inside, produced superior results.  The Mach 2 software was revelatory.  It was like several layers of veils were removed from the recordings.  The noise floor is non-existent.  The decay of notes was amazing.  Mach 2 went away and the developer of that software package did a new build for Eric Hider (dB Audio Labs).  That package is a 'bit' better and I see no reason to move on from this.

Like I noted before drive cases has always been a place to readily hear differences.  This is due to the quality of the controller.  Presently I am using a 1TB SSD in the mini for ultimate playback and use an WD 6TB drive as mass storage.  The quality and types of cables used between the CD drive - a Mac SuperDrive - and the min as well as the WD drive is very important.  I use a TWL/PI Discreet from the SuperDrive to the mini and a Firewire 800 cable from the WD to the mini.

Some things are a tad blurry in the time domain of what happened when in my journey, but at least I hit the high points.  At 72 some things seem like they happened yesterday and somethings are iffy in order.

For streaming I have no qualms stateing that playing from files is still superior.  No, I have plan to buying a streamer that sells for the price of a good used car.  I use Tidal for general listening and when I want to preview something I might want a hard copy for.  It is just too easy.

Finally:  I have little use for hi-rez.  There are millions of titles in Redbook out there.  I have about 4 TB of them.  It is a fact that we are still getting better at getting ALL of the data encoded on disc.  Ripping at 88.2 is superior in SQ.  96kHz has decimation problems that are audible in the terms of hardness in the highs to my ears.

« Last Edit: July 24, 2020, 11:10:00 AM by P.I. »
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Offline TrueAudio

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #36 on: July 25, 2020, 08:49:31 AM »
Here's good info on the subject of Audio CD's:

https://www.cdrfaq.org/faq02.html

Offline doug s.

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #37 on: July 25, 2020, 12:26:08 PM »
hi!

i appreciate your willingness to do this for me.  but i am still confused about what you'd be doing.  why two copies?  aren't you going to be copying one w/your special procedure, and then going to send me the original and the copy?

thanks!

doug s.
you can take my name off the list.  i have just listened to the first 7 songs of the marc cohn album; no way i could sit and listen to this even once, let alone the twice or more, necessary to do a meaningful comparison.  just not my cuppa.

thanks anyway,

doug s.
OK.  Too bad... 😔. If you want to send me two copies (preferably from the same production lot) of preferred music Iíll be happy to do my thing to them and send them back.  Just let me know.

Offline P.I.

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #38 on: July 25, 2020, 02:58:36 PM »
hi!

i appreciate your willingness to do this for me.  but i am still confused about what you'd be doing.  why two copies?  aren't you going to be copying one w/your special procedure, and then going to send me the original and the copy?

thanks!

doug s.
you can take my name off the list.  i have just listened to the first 7 songs of the marc cohn album; no way i could sit and listen to this even once, let alone the twice or more, necessary to do a meaningful comparison.  just not my cuppa.

thanks anyway,

doug s.
OK.  Too bad... 😔. If you want to send me two copies (preferably from the same production lot) of preferred music Iíll be happy to do my thing to them and send them back.  Just let me know.
From the first page, typos and all:

"I would be willing to buy 2 CDí, do the treatment burn a black CDand send it out to the group IF people here agree to treat them with kid gloves so everyone can hear (or not) the differences in protocols."

I wasn't very clear in what I wrote about the 2 CD thing.  One CD will be the control, the second will be treated and the black one is just to demonstrate the differences in the black media and the standard clear media.  They are all different and it is up to the listener to choose which one has the best SQ on his system.  We are all interested in superior SQ, right?
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline TrueAudio

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #39 on: July 25, 2020, 05:13:21 PM »
Here are pics (not the best quality) of the guys mod/rebuilding of the drive-custom power supply and chassis (double shell)--pretty elaborate:



Here's some more text I translated with google translate from:  http://api.guide.free.fr/blog/archive026.htm

He's noting actual sound quality differences between different optical drives:


"(*) The CDAD listening report read on the CD-SACD Phi Audiophile living room turntable will be read on the update

(**) When listening to the same ripped audio file, the Benq drive is less analytical than the Samsung. Samsung is more neutral, more detailed, cleaner. The Benq would seem more messy, its extreme bass is less varied, a little inflated. The Benq accentuates the lower midrange and the upper bass a little ... But it is its flaws that make it so charming, a charm made up of life, flesh, spontaneity, energy ... this is the illustration even the art of lying-truth ... and which earned him the note 9.5 in my ear. We can tell it's a bit colorful, but it's such a treat that we don't care about neutrality. The Benq has the advantage over the Samsung that it can be easily implemented even for less DIY enthusiasts.

(***) To benefit both from its precision, from its analytical power and at the same time from the same vitality as the Benq, the Samsung drive requires a lot of reconstruction work. But it's really worth it since in its final version it subjectively reaches a higher score, at 9.8.

(****) The comments on the final version (click) will be read on the update "91-power-ripp.htm file"

The two drives after transformation come together to give a very close sound reproduction, while very far at the start. As soon as we approach a certain perfection the differences fade in favor of an increased proximity with the damn original audio, the master tape. The final difference will be a personal musical choice, a more analytical sound rendering or a warmer sound rendering (the feeling will of course be much more subtle and nuanced than these coarse qualifiers). It can also be a practical choice if you find a used Benq drive. The DIY part will then be reduced."

He has a table where he documents his observations per each level of modification, where each series of mods, he notes improvements, rated on a scale of 1-10 (put the link into google translate to see the actual table).


"Match of old and new: DAE compared to external USB2 or internal UC CD-DVD drives / burners

Power supply 12v, 5v, original

With external power supply + Silmic2 filtering

With external power supply + Silmic2 filtering + cocooning + Pharos

With external power supply + Silmic2 filtering + cocooning + drive mounted in the audiophile Phi box, without then with Pharos, finally in its final version in a double shell case."
« Last Edit: July 25, 2020, 05:16:01 PM by TrueAudio »

Offline doug s.

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #40 on: July 26, 2020, 11:46:47 AM »
ok, so i was not getting that a regular cd that was "treated" would sound better than a regular untreated cd.  i was assuming that it was the ripping process - and doing it using a black cd - that was effecting the improvements. 

so, inquiring minds want to know - which sounds better (in your opinion) - the treated regular cd, or the specially ripped and treated (if other treatments are done) black cd?

i guess i should g back and re-read what, exactly, it is you're doing?  or is it not really clear?  hah!  😁

thanks,

doug s.
From the first page, typos and all:

"I would be willing to buy 2 CDí, do the treatment burn a black CDand send it out to the group IF people here agree to treat them with kid gloves so everyone can hear (or not) the differences in protocols."

I wasn't very clear in what I wrote about the 2 CD thing.  One CD will be the control, the second will be treated and the black one is just to demonstrate the differences in the black media and the standard clear media.  They are all different and it is up to the listener to choose which one has the best SQ on his system.  We are all interested in superior SQ, right?

Offline P.I.

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #41 on: July 26, 2020, 04:22:12 PM »
ok, so i was not getting that a regular cd that was "treated" would sound better than a regular untreated cd.  i was assuming that it was the ripping process - and doing it using a black cd - that was effecting the improvements. 

so, inquiring minds want to know - which sounds better (in your opinion) - the treated regular cd, or the specially ripped and treated (if other treatments are done) black cd?

i guess i should g back and re-read what, exactly, it is you're doing?  or is it not really clear?  hah!  😁

thanks,

doug s.
From the first page, typos and all:

"I would be willing to buy 2 CDí, do the treatment burn a black CDand send it out to the group IF people here agree to treat them with kid gloves so everyone can hear (or not) the differences in protocols."

I wasn't very clear in what I wrote about the 2 CD thing.  One CD will be the control, the second will be treated and the black one is just to demonstrate the differences in the black media and the standard clear media.  They are all different and it is up to the listener to choose which one has the best SQ on his system.  We are all interested in superior SQ, right?
Like I said, Iím not going to pollute the data pool by making direct statements that will effect expectation or confirmation bias.  That is what this entire exercise is all about.  Demonstrations of differences.
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Offline P.I.

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #42 on: July 26, 2020, 06:25:11 PM »
ok, so i was not getting that a regular cd that was "treated" would sound better than a regular untreated cd.  i was assuming that it was the ripping process - and doing it using a black cd - that was effecting the improvements. 

so, inquiring minds want to know - which sounds better (in your opinion) - the treated regular cd, or the specially ripped and treated (if other treatments are done) black cd?

i guess i should g back and re-read what, exactly, it is you're doing?  or is it not really clear?  hah!  😁

thanks,

doug s.
From the first page, typos and all:

"I would be willing to buy 2 CDí, do the treatment burn a black CDand send it out to the group IF people here agree to treat them with kid gloves so everyone can hear (or not) the differences in protocols."

I wasn't very clear in what I wrote about the 2 CD thing.  One CD will be the control, the second will be treated and the black one is just to demonstrate the differences in the black media and the standard clear media.  They are all different and it is up to the listener to choose which one has the best SQ on his system.  We are all interested in superior SQ, right?
OK, Doug.  Letís make this easy.  Iíll treat my copy of SKIP, HOP & WOBBLE, burn a black CD and send them both to you.  I will want to get my copy of that CD back from you.  Once you listen to yours, mine and the burned copy PM or email me with your thoughts.  DO NOT post your findings until the experiment is over.

OK?
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline P.I.

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #43 on: July 28, 2020, 03:33:41 PM »
ok, so i was not getting that a regular cd that was "treated" would sound better than a regular untreated cd.  i was assuming that it was the ripping process - and doing it using a black cd - that was effecting the improvements. 

so, inquiring minds want to know - which sounds better (in your opinion) - the treated regular cd, or the specially ripped and treated (if other treatments are done) black cd?

i guess i should g back and re-read what, exactly, it is you're doing?  or is it not really clear?  hah!  😁

thanks,

doug s.
From the first page, typos and all:

"I would be willing to buy 2 CDí, do the treatment burn a black CDand send it out to the group IF people here agree to treat them with kid gloves so everyone can hear (or not) the differences in protocols."

I wasn't very clear in what I wrote about the 2 CD thing.  One CD will be the control, the second will be treated and the black one is just to demonstrate the differences in the black media and the standard clear media.  They are all different and it is up to the listener to choose which one has the best SQ on his system.  We are all interested in superior SQ, right?
OK, Doug.  Letís make this easy.  Iíll treat my copy of SKIP, HOP & WOBBLE, burn a black CD and send them both to you.  I will want to get my copy of that CD back from you.  Once you listen to yours, mine and the burned copy PM or email me with your thoughts.  DO NOT post your findings until the experiment is over.

OK?
All I have here is crickets  🦗🦗🦗
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Offline doug s.

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #44 on: July 28, 2020, 03:37:43 PM »
hi dave, lemme quote what you said prior, and maybe you'll understand a bit of my confusion:

For the highest quality rip here is what I do. Iím still using DB Poweramp...

Cryo the CD (yes, it matters)
Demag the CD
Demag a black CD
Burn with error correction enabled
Demag it again
Copy to the SSD
Transfer to the archive drive

Yes, every step makes an audible difference.

The real interesting aspects are cryo and demagnetizing.


so, what i got out of that is that, while a commercial cd that's cryo'd and demag'd may sound better than a commercial cd that's never been treated, what really sounds the best is a ripped black cd that's been cryo'd and demag'd.

so, if what i think is correct - that the best sound is coming from the ripped treated black cd - even better than the treated commercial cd, then all i really would need/want is the ripped/treated black cd.

in my own comparison quite a few years back, a plain old ordinary black cd ripped on a plain old ordinary pc sounded better than the commercial iteration (and patricia barber cd's re done up pretty well imo.)

if a commercial treated cd is better than a standard cd, i don't really care, if the treated ripped black cd is better still.

and just so i'm understanding exactly what you're doing -
- 1st, you cryo and demag a commercial cd. 
- then, you copy the commercial cryo'd/demag'd cd to your computer/burner set up.
- then, from your computer/burner set-up, you burn the copy on a (cryo'd/demag'd?) black cd.
- then you demag (and cryo?) the black cd again.

if the above is what your doing, (or close to it? - hah!), then all you need to do for me is to send me the special-sauce black cd copy.  i'll trust you that your treated commercial copy is better than the untreated commercial cd, but i'm only really interested in the best one, which is the black cd, as i'm understanding it.

thanks for your patience.   :mrgreen:

doug s.
ps - sorry for taking a while to respond - my injury means i'm not on the computer frequently, and forget about trying to answer from my cell-phone.   :?

ok, so i was not getting that a regular cd that was "treated" would sound better than a regular untreated cd.  i was assuming that it was the ripping process - and doing it using a black cd - that was effecting the improvements. 

so, inquiring minds want to know - which sounds better (in your opinion) - the treated regular cd, or the specially ripped and treated (if other treatments are done) black cd?

i guess i should g back and re-read what, exactly, it is you're doing?  or is it not really clear?  hah!  😁

thanks,

doug s.
From the first page, typos and all:

"I would be willing to buy 2 CDí, do the treatment burn a black CDand send it out to the group IF people here agree to treat them with kid gloves so everyone can hear (or not) the differences in protocols."

I wasn't very clear in what I wrote about the 2 CD thing.  One CD will be the control, the second will be treated and the black one is just to demonstrate the differences in the black media and the standard clear media.  They are all different and it is up to the listener to choose which one has the best SQ on his system.  We are all interested in superior SQ, right?
OK, Doug.  Letís make this easy.  Iíll treat my copy of SKIP, HOP & WOBBLE, burn a black CD and send them both to you.  I will want to get my copy of that CD back from you.  Once you listen to yours, mine and the burned copy PM or email me with your thoughts.  DO NOT post your findings until the experiment is over.

OK?
« Last Edit: July 28, 2020, 03:40:18 PM by doug s. »