Author Topic: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done  (Read 2269 times)

Offline P.I.

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2020, 07:46:41 PM »
Dave:
I'll spring for the cds since your doing a lot of dollar value work on this project.
Just let me know. We are talking regular cd right not mega buck ones.
I will suggest Blues Singer by Buddy Guy. Still blows me away when I hear it.

Nit
Not that Nit, The other Nit.
Don, you are on!  Iíll order the CDs tomorrow.  I want to make sure they come from the same production lot. 

All I ask is for the participants to treat them with love and handle them properly... by the edges.

Participants need to not exceed 5 days from time they get them until they send them to the next victim.

Sound good?

Start adding your name to the list and weíll make it happen.   :thumb:
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline doug s.

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2020, 08:52:08 PM »
i'm a bit confused here.  wouldn't you be able to recognize the difference between a store-bought cd and one burned on a black cd-r?

for a choice of music, i'd recommend these:

- skip, hop & wobble
jerry douglas, russ barenberg, edgar meyer

- talking timbuktu
ry cooder & ali farka tourť

- pontiac
lyle lovett

- the coryells
larry, julian & murali coryell
(great chesky recording)

- cafe blue
patricia barber
(nice recording)

- burbon & rosewater
jerry douglas, edgar meyer & vishwa mohan bhatt
(nice water lily acoustics recording)

besides these all being fantastic albums, i am very familiar with them, which would be helpful to me.   :mrgreen:  (altho i have pontiac and cafe blue on vinyl only. and my "the coryells" disc is a burned copy.)  if i need to buy one of the above cd's to get it included, lemme know.

doug s.
If so, suggest a recording and I will do this thing again.  The store bought CDs will be labeled #1 and #2.  Only and one other person of my choosing will know which is which.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2020, 08:53:58 PM by doug s. »

Offline Nick B

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2020, 11:17:37 PM »
To reiterate part of what I quoted:

"- 1 pendulum system with double weights is placed on the external cage (principle inaugurated on the previous Audiophile Phi≤)
- 1 pendulum system with offset mass on a semi-flexible aluminum blade & copper / lead weight is now added internally
- 1 mixed box of bamboo charcoal / pure quartz sand is added internally to the drive -
- the drive plate and certain other parts are treated with carbon black
- 2 ferrite magnets are added on either side of the rotating CD
- 2 small pure copper sponges are inserted in the double shell at the drive"

So, as you can see, this guy made a custom enclosure for his ripping drive, also utilizing different types of dampening materials.  Also, quartz? which I think would have some RFI absorbing ability--not sure what the bamboo charcoal does, nor the ferrite magnets around the rotating disc.  The copper sponges sounds to me like he made a faraday cage/shield around the drive inside the custom enclosure (there's so much crap in the air that this totally makes sense).  Sounds to me like this project was a labor of love to this guy, I wonder how long he experimented with this concept before he got a working prototype.  ALso notice that he made a battery power supply for this, so its not getting fed at all by the factory power supply (smps):  "a large power supply or a large inverter is no longer used for ripp drive

He's also privvy to the digital pollution from other devices, this guy is awake:

Of course when listening in SARD ++ on a good living room hi-fi system, the PC's Wifi must be switched off, the ADSL box must be switched off, the mobile telephones must be switched off, the DECT telephones in the home must be switched off and removed from their base.

I wonder how much he charges for one of these to be built, and if there's a way to get a hold of him and if he speaks English.  Of course, one could embark on trying to implement something like this yourself if you were so inclined.

This is so interesting to me because it is REALLY addressing the source, which could have unbelievable results if designed and build well.

This is exactly the stuff that makes people scoff at audiophiles AND exactly the stuff I've been looking for!!! :!: :!: I am assuming the kind of cd drive also makes a difference? I thought I read something somewhere about Plextor drives being very good?  I've been wanting to buy an external drive dedicated to ripping as I don't trust my PC's drive, but this is very thorough.

Dave's additional steps of cryo and demag should take it to another level.

Ha...thatís why we call this place home, Paul. I had a Plextor drive at one time. Worked flawlessly. That was back in the Windows OS days...
I am thinking of picking up one of these
https://www.amazon.com/Apple-MD564LL-A-USB-SuperDrive/dp/B011K4XZQ0/ref=ice_ac_b_dpb?dchild=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMImODvzprg6gIVHz2tBh3FOwpuEAAYASAAEgJa8fD_BwE&hvadid=153657847429&hvdev=t&hvlocphy=9029965&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=1523329449314557044&hvtargid=kwd-34236776292&hydadcr=18032_9433277&keywords=apple+usb+superdrive&qid=1595398533&sr=8-3&tag=googhydr-20
I was also looking at this. Itís intriguing as I already have a dedicated power supply for my Auralic streamer. If so, Iíd order thru Charles
https://www.tweekgeek.com/zen-mini-mk3/?sku=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgrD42Zvg6gIVQiCtBh2owwTVEAQYBCABEgIHovD_BwE
« Last Edit: July 21, 2020, 11:23:15 PM by Nick B »
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Offline P.I.

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2020, 11:09:55 AM »
i'm a bit confused here.  wouldn't you be able to recognize the difference between a store-bought cd and one burned on a black cd-r?

for a choice of music, i'd recommend these:

- skip, hop & wobble
jerry douglas, russ barenberg, edgar meyer

- talking timbuktu
ry cooder & ali farka tourť

- pontiac
lyle lovett

- the coryells
larry, julian & murali coryell
(great chesky recording)

- cafe blue
patricia barber
(nice recording)

- burbon & rosewater
jerry douglas, edgar meyer & vishwa mohan bhatt
(nice water lily acoustics recording)

besides these all being fantastic albums, i am very familiar with them, which would be helpful to me.   :mrgreen:  (altho i have pontiac and cafe blue on vinyl only. and my "the coryells" disc is a burned copy.)  if i need to buy one of the above cd's to get it included, lemme know.

doug s.
If so, suggest a recording and I will do this thing again.  The store bought CDs will be labeled #1 and #2.  Only and one other person of my choosing will know which is which.
The best way to do this test is to have an assistant put the CD's in the player.  That way it is essentially a double blind test.  Obviously a black CD is black and a dead giveaway.

The test needs to have some superbly recorded vocals and acoustic instruments.  Also, to prevent confirmation bias it is best to listen to relatively unfamiliar music.  I really don't want this to devolve into data wars, so I'm going to choose the music.  Sorry, Dan.  Sorry Doug.

An extremely well recorded album is Marc Cohn's first release.  That is the one I have chosen for this gig.  No one needs to chip in on this beyond the postage to the next participant.

Here is the list so far:

Malloy
dflee
doug s.
Barry

If you want in on this gambit post here, PM me or send me an email.

I am choosing Nick as "the Control" for this.  I will tell him which disc is the one that has the 'special sauce' so he will be able to confirm the results.

The process for reporting your findings -  DO NOT post on the open forum what you hear and the order that you would rank the discs.  We want the observation pool to be unbiased by others findings.  PM me and let me know what you think.  I will tabulate the results and when this is all over I'll then post them.  It  will be interesting to see the outcome.

Once again: it is absolutely imperative to handle the discs with care.  Any surface damage will render the test moot and it will be a waste of the participant's time.

Fair enough?
« Last Edit: July 23, 2020, 11:24:08 AM by P.I. »
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline rollo

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2020, 11:16:47 AM »
  Is this not what a music server does. Rips to bit perfect then to a SSD like the Innuos Server.

charles
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Offline Nick B

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2020, 11:51:38 AM »
i'm a bit confused here.  wouldn't you be able to recognize the difference between a store-bought cd and one burned on a black cd-r?

for a choice of music, i'd recommend these:

- skip, hop & wobble
jerry douglas, russ barenberg, edgar meyer

- talking timbuktu
ry cooder & ali farka tourť

- pontiac
lyle lovett

- the coryells
larry, julian & murali coryell
(great chesky recording)

- cafe blue
patricia barber
(nice recording)

- burbon & rosewater
jerry douglas, edgar meyer & vishwa mohan bhatt
(nice water lily acoustics recording)

besides these all being fantastic albums, i am very familiar with them, which would be helpful to me.   :mrgreen:  (altho i have pontiac and cafe blue on vinyl only. and my "the coryells" disc is a burned copy.)  if i need to buy one of the above cd's to get it included, lemme know.

doug s.
If so, suggest a recording and I will do this thing again.  The store bought CDs will be labeled #1 and #2.  Only and one other person of my choosing will know which is which.
The best way to do this test is to have an assistant put the CD's in the player.  That way it is essentially a double blind test.  Obviously a black CD is black and a dead giveaway.

The test needs to have some superbly recorded vocals and acoustic instruments.  Also, to prevent confirmation bias it is best to listen to relatively unfamiliar music.  I really don't want this to devolve into data wars, so I'm going to choose the music.  Sorry, Dan.  Sorry Doug.

An extremely well recorded album is Marc Cohn's first release.  That is the one I have chosen for this gig.  No one needs to chip in on this beyond the postage to the next participant.

Here is the list so far:

Malloy
dflee
doug s.

If you want in on this gambit post here, PM me or send me an email.

I am choosing Nick as "the Control" for this.  I will tell him which disc is the one that has the 'special sauce' so he will be able to confirm the results.

The process for reporting your findings -  DO NOT post on the open forum what you hear and the order that you would rank the discs.  We want the observation pool to be unbiased by others findings.  PM me and let me know what you think.  I will tabulate the results and when this is all over I'll then post them.  It  will be interesting to see the outcome.

Once again: it is absolutely imperative to handle the discs with care.  Any surface damage will render the test moot and it will be a waste of the participant's time.

Fair enough?

Indeed  :thumb:
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Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
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Offline P.I.

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2020, 12:11:22 PM »
  Is this not what a music server does. Rips to bit perfect then to a SSD like the Innuos Server.

charles
It should be that way.  In practice there are some subtle differences in SQ depending upon a variety of factors. These can include:

ripping software
the drive (HDD or SSD)
the drive enclosure (actually the drive controller)
is the cable interface USB (2 or 3), Firewire, Thunderbolt or whatever
the cabling itself
the phase of the moon...

It is like all audio situations:  Everything effects everything.
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline malloy

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2020, 06:21:29 PM »

Ha...thatís why we call this place home, Paul. I had a Plextor drive at one time. Worked flawlessly. That was back in the Windows OS days...
I am thinking of picking up one of these
https://www.amazon.com/Apple-MD564LL-A-USB-SuperDrive/dp/B011K4XZQ0/ref=ice_ac_b_dpb?dchild=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMImODvzprg6gIVHz2tBh3FOwpuEAAYASAAEgJa8fD_BwE&hvadid=153657847429&hvdev=t&hvlocphy=9029965&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=1523329449314557044&hvtargid=kwd-34236776292&hydadcr=18032_9433277&keywords=apple+usb+superdrive&qid=1595398533&sr=8-3&tag=googhydr-20
I was also looking at this. Itís intriguing as I already have a dedicated power supply for my Auralic streamer. If so, Iíd order thru Charles
https://www.tweekgeek.com/zen-mini-mk3/?sku=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgrD42Zvg6gIVQiCtBh2owwTVEAQYBCABEgIHovD_BwE

Hi Nick,

I was thinking of this: https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/hard-drives/External-Enclosures/Optical-DVD-CD-Bluray

That Innuos I've had my eye on for the longest time, but my wallet complained too much, being the cheapskate that I am.

I'll have to fix my cd player's transport door belt and get myself some decent interconnects. Once upon a time some 18 years ago, it was probably close to cutting edge, now it's just a large paperweight ever since the Sony streamer came in.

Paul




Offline Nick B

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2020, 06:42:52 PM »

Ha...thatís why we call this place home, Paul. I had a Plextor drive at one time. Worked flawlessly. That was back in the Windows OS days...
I am thinking of picking up one of these
https://www.amazon.com/Apple-MD564LL-A-USB-SuperDrive/dp/B011K4XZQ0/ref=ice_ac_b_dpb?dchild=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMImODvzprg6gIVHz2tBh3FOwpuEAAYASAAEgJa8fD_BwE&hvadid=153657847429&hvdev=t&hvlocphy=9029965&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=1523329449314557044&hvtargid=kwd-34236776292&hydadcr=18032_9433277&keywords=apple+usb+superdrive&qid=1595398533&sr=8-3&tag=googhydr-20
I was also looking at this. Itís intriguing as I already have a dedicated power supply for my Auralic streamer. If so, Iíd order thru Charles
https://www.tweekgeek.com/zen-mini-mk3/?sku=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgrD42Zvg6gIVQiCtBh2owwTVEAQYBCABEgIHovD_BwE

Hi Nick,

I was thinking of this: https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/hard-drives/External-Enclosures/Optical-DVD-CD-Bluray

That Innuos I've had my eye on for the longest time, but my wallet complained too much, being the cheapskate that I am.

I'll have to fix my cd player's transport door belt and get myself some decent interconnects. Once upon a time some 18 years ago, it was probably close to cutting edge, now it's just a large paperweight ever since the Sony streamer came in.

Paul

Good website, Paul. Hadnít seen that one before. I may be getting some budget friendly interconnects soon. If so, you can basically have mine for shipping costs if you want. They are quite good, but unshielded.
Having a talking wallet and being a cheapskate are good audiophile virtues to have.
Nick
ICEpower 1200as2 amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
Fritz Carrera 7 BE speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
Auralic Aries Mini & Mojo Audio lps
Audio Envy cables
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline P.I.

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2020, 09:57:43 PM »

Ha...thatís why we call this place home, Paul. I had a Plextor drive at one time. Worked flawlessly. That was back in the Windows OS days...
I am thinking of picking up one of these
https://www.amazon.com/Apple-MD564LL-A-USB-SuperDrive/dp/B011K4XZQ0/ref=ice_ac_b_dpb?dchild=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMImODvzprg6gIVHz2tBh3FOwpuEAAYASAAEgJa8fD_BwE&hvadid=153657847429&hvdev=t&hvlocphy=9029965&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=1523329449314557044&hvtargid=kwd-34236776292&hydadcr=18032_9433277&keywords=apple+usb+superdrive&qid=1595398533&sr=8-3&tag=googhydr-20
I was also looking at this. Itís intriguing as I already have a dedicated power supply for my Auralic streamer. If so, Iíd order thru Charles
https://www.tweekgeek.com/zen-mini-mk3/?sku=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgrD42Zvg6gIVQiCtBh2owwTVEAQYBCABEgIHovD_BwE

Hi Nick,

I was thinking of this: https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/hard-drives/External-Enclosures/Optical-DVD-CD-Bluray

That Innuos I've had my eye on for the longest time, but my wallet complained too much, being the cheapskate that I am.

I'll have to fix my cd player's transport door belt and get myself some decent interconnects. Once upon a time some 18 years ago, it was probably close to cutting edge, now it's just a large paperweight ever since the Sony streamer came in.

Paul
The OWC Elite Pro is one of the best sounding drive enclosures available.  So says my digital guru Eric Hider.  He has listened to everything and the OWC is his choice due to the controller.  It does sound better than what I was using...
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline Barry (NJ)

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2020, 07:24:50 AM »
The best way to do this test is to have an assistant put the CD's in the player.  That way it is essentially a double blind test.  Obviously a black CD is black and a dead giveaway.

The test needs to have some superbly recorded vocals and acoustic instruments.  Also, to prevent confirmation bias it is best to listen to relatively unfamiliar music.  I really don't want this to devolve into data wars, so I'm going to choose the music.  Sorry, Dan.  Sorry Doug.

An extremely well recorded album is Marc Cohn's first release.  That is the one I have chosen for this gig.  No one needs to chip in on this beyond the postage to the next participant.

Here is the list so far:

Malloy
dflee
doug s.

If you want in on this gambit post here, PM me or send me an email.

I am choosing Nick as "the Control" for this.  I will tell him which disc is the one that has the 'special sauce' so he will be able to confirm the results.

The process for reporting your findings -  DO NOT post on the open forum what you hear and the order that you would rank the discs.  We want the observation pool to be unbiased by others findings.  PM me and let me know what you think.  I will tabulate the results and when this is all over I'll then post them.  It  will be interesting to see the outcome.

Once again: it is absolutely imperative to handle the discs with care.  Any surface damage will render the test moot and it will be a waste of the participant's time.

Fair enough?


I'd like to join in on the fun!
Wouldn't mind the Pink Floyd disc you'd done in the earlier iteration of this experiment. I like Pink Floyd, but I'm not familiar with that recording.
But Marc Cohn is fine  ;)
« Last Edit: July 23, 2020, 07:30:06 AM by Barry (NJ) »
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Offline P.I.

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2020, 11:23:16 AM »
The best way to do this test is to have an assistant put the CD's in the player.  That way it is essentially a double blind test.  Obviously a black CD is black and a dead giveaway.

The test needs to have some superbly recorded vocals and acoustic instruments.  Also, to prevent confirmation bias it is best to listen to relatively unfamiliar music.  I really don't want this to devolve into data wars, so I'm going to choose the music.  Sorry, Dan.  Sorry Doug.

An extremely well recorded album is Marc Cohn's first release.  That is the one I have chosen for this gig.  No one needs to chip in on this beyond the postage to the next participant.

Here is the list so far:

Malloy
dflee
doug s.

If you want in on this gambit post here, PM me or send me an email.

I am choosing Nick as "the Control" for this.  I will tell him which disc is the one that has the 'special sauce' so he will be able to confirm the results.

The process for reporting your findings -  DO NOT post on the open forum what you hear and the order that you would rank the discs.  We want the observation pool to be unbiased by others findings.  PM me and let me know what you think.  I will tabulate the results and when this is all over I'll then post them.  It  will be interesting to see the outcome.

Once again: it is absolutely imperative to handle the discs with care.  Any surface damage will render the test moot and it will be a waste of the participant's time.

Fair enough?


I'd like to join in on the fun!
Wouldn't mind the Pink Floyd disc you'd done in the earlier iteration of this experiment. I like Pink Floyd, but I'm not familiar with that recording.
But Marc Cohn is fine  ;)
Thos discs were rendered unplayable by people that did not respect the property of other.

The Cohn discs are on their way here.

I'll add you to the list.  Thanks for playing!
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline doug s.

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2020, 12:04:10 PM »
all my recommendations are fabulous recorded vocals and acoustic instruments.  and, imo, it's easier to discern any difference w/music you're familiar with.  be that as it may, i am fine w/you choosing whatever you wish.

so, i will need to get my boss to load the cd's, i think she'll do that for me.  ;)

doug s.
i'm a bit confused here.  wouldn't you be able to recognize the difference between a store-bought cd and one burned on a black cd-r?

for a choice of music, i'd recommend these:

- skip, hop & wobble
jerry douglas, russ barenberg, edgar meyer

- talking timbuktu
ry cooder & ali farka tourť

- pontiac
lyle lovett

- the coryells
larry, julian & murali coryell
(great chesky recording)

- cafe blue
patricia barber
(nice recording)

- burbon & rosewater
jerry douglas, edgar meyer & vishwa mohan bhatt
(nice water lily acoustics recording)

besides these all being fantastic albums, i am very familiar with them, which would be helpful to me.   :mrgreen:  (altho i have pontiac and cafe blue on vinyl only. and my "the coryells" disc is a burned copy.)  if i need to buy one of the above cd's to get it included, lemme know.

doug s.
If so, suggest a recording and I will do this thing again.  The store bought CDs will be labeled #1 and #2.  Only and one other person of my choosing will know which is which.
The best way to do this test is to have an assistant put the CD's in the player.  That way it is essentially a double blind test.  Obviously a black CD is black and a dead giveaway.

The test needs to have some superbly recorded vocals and acoustic instruments.  Also, to prevent confirmation bias it is best to listen to relatively unfamiliar music.  I really don't want this to devolve into data wars, so I'm going to choose the music.  Sorry, Dan.  Sorry Doug.

An extremely well recorded album is Marc Cohn's first release.  That is the one I have chosen for this gig.  No one needs to chip in on this beyond the postage to the next participant.

Here is the list so far:

Malloy
dflee
doug s.
Barry

If you want in on this gambit post here, PM me or send me an email.

I am choosing Nick as "the Control" for this.  I will tell him which disc is the one that has the 'special sauce' so he will be able to confirm the results.

The process for reporting your findings -  DO NOT post on the open forum what you hear and the order that you would rank the discs.  We want the observation pool to be unbiased by others findings.  PM me and let me know what you think.  I will tabulate the results and when this is all over I'll then post them.  It  will be interesting to see the outcome.

Once again: it is absolutely imperative to handle the discs with care.  Any surface damage will render the test moot and it will be a waste of the participant's time.

Fair enough?

Offline doug s.

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2020, 12:06:52 PM »
especially critical is moon phase; no doubt.   :mrgreen:

doug s.
  Is this not what a music server does. Rips to bit perfect then to a SSD like the Innuos Server.

charles
It should be that way.  In practice there are some subtle differences in SQ depending upon a variety of factors. These can include:

ripping software
the drive (HDD or SSD)
the drive enclosure (actually the drive controller)
is the cable interface USB (2 or 3), Firewire, Thunderbolt or whatever
the cabling itself
the phase of the moon...

It is like all audio situations:  Everything effects everything.

Offline Barry (NJ)

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2020, 01:21:45 PM »
Those discs were rendered unplayable by people that did not respect the property of other.

The Cohn discs are on their way here.

I'll add you to the list.  Thanks for playing!

Pleasure and thanks for making it happen! And I was suggesting recreating the Pink Floyd discs for this go-round, but I hadn't noticed that Marc Cohn had already been chosen ;)
Happiness is when your system overcomes your nervosa ;) 
So much media, so little time... My Media Room...