Author Topic: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done  (Read 1865 times)

Offline TrueAudio

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This is google translated from French, so pardon the imperfect translations.  This is pretty incredible stuff here, and I just found out about it today:

07/05/2009 A.A.
Digital audio extraction, the first link in the Hi-Fi chain of the 21st century

At the very top, there is the SARD (Super Audio Ram Disk)

SARD is a process which allows to benefit from a Hi-Fi musicality superior to any audio system dependent on a more conventional music storage. However, the file read in SARD must be of the best possible quality. We know that any Hi-Fi system never has the quality of its weakest link. In the case of SARD the weak link could be the phonogram itself, i.e. the 16-bit 44.1kHz stereo music file. This music file must be extracted from a commercial CD, ripped, saved as a .wav file on your PC hard drive, and then processed. The first step is therefore to properly rip the file.

Just below, there is the CDAD (Compact Disc Audio Dither)

CDAD (a term of my invention, just like SARD) is an audio CDRom burned from a wav file initially processed for SARD. On a high-end HiFi system, with a quality CD player, we see that the CD thus reproduced is musically superior to the original when it is read by conventional laser. The only constraint is that the wav file must have been ripped from the original CD beforehand, either by the Pharos Power ripp or by the Ripper-burner Phi2 Audiophile. Only then, its own musical qualities are expressed at 110%. The engraving will be done with the same tool that was used for audio ripping.

An original and inexpensive DIY

How to make a Pharos Power ripp or a Phi2 Audiophile Ripper-burner is as important a step as the CD-SACD Phi Audiophile folder or more recently the Ramtek V folder and the SARD. The complete file is unfortunately far too heavy to appear here. Here are some extracts and some thumbnails ...
For all the details, descriptions and comments, see the CD or download the update.

The copy better than the original

Impossible a priori, tell me. And yet, as surprising as it may seem, the copy can be musically better than the original, and without affecting the nusical signal itself. Certain processes indeed influence the psychoacoustics of human hearing and reveal treasures of emotion hidden in CDs that were thought to be dull and boring. The brain always retains reluctance towards digital sound, which presents a discontinuity which does not exist in nature. If we give it back a more natural mode of perception that reminds it of the analog side of sounds, the brain quickly takes hold of it. He seizes the opportunity, and takes it with delight.

The quality of a rippage is understood

I am not talking about clicks, small noises or silences appearing during burning after a botched ripping or done on a very damaged CD. This technical aspect is solved on good recent materials and using new commercial CDs or handled with care. It's a minimum.
No, I'm talking about musical quality, sensations, emotion.
99% of the copied CDs sound worse than the original when played on a quality Hi-Fi system. Is it the fault of digital extraction? How to know?
Knowing whether the file has been extracted to the nearest bit 100% identical to that of the original audio CD is impossible, failing to be able to compare with the file of the master tape. Error analysis tools are simple indicators. Counting errors C2 is only an index which measures imperfections, approximations, but which does not predict musicality.


No standard meter

The particular music lover lacks a tool of comparison, of reference. Only those who navigate the music industry can listen to master files to compare with their commercial CDs. Wanting to evaluate what we have extracted with what others have extracted from the same CD is in no way a guarantee of accuracy (see service accurate ripp). Getting the same number will simply mean that others have done the same and got the same. Alas the law of the greatest number is not the guarantee of a perfect extraction especially if one is looking for something as difficult to measure as the notion of musicality.

The ear remains the sole judge

So I decided to trust my ear. The artists have a priori the desire to succeed in their musical performance, to record it well and to make a CD worthy of it. A good rippage will therefore be the one that will best account to my ears for this presupposed musicality. So I trust the intention and not the bit, the purpose and not the means to reach it. What matters is the music, not the similarity of binary codes. Failing to be scientific, this principle has at least the advantage of pleasing my artistic sense.
_____________________________________________________________________________
04/21/2011 by AA. .
The new Phi² audiophile slim CD-DVD burner was born

In hi-fi nothing is never frozen, acquired, engraved in marble

It only takes the failure of a single element that can neither be repaired nor found on the market to question a hi-fi system that we thought was accomplished, perfectly euphonized and completely satisfactory. Fortunately, the element in question does not penalize the past but it could greatly mortgage the future.

The king is dead, long live the king!

The Samsung SE-S224Q / EUBN external drive that I used for the audiophile Phi² Ripper dates from 2009 (see file 111-hypersinus-power-ripp), and in 2011, Samsung no longer manufactures it. Mine burned out in March 2011 due to a (supposed) problem with my external power supply. This type of highly integrated device with miniature surface components cannot be repaired. Rather than looking for an identical second-hand drive, I preferred to play the evolution of the hardware towards the external drives still available offered in all USB, autonomous powered by the USB cable, with very low power consumption and with mini mechanical, called "slim".

Little musical break

Even cheaper!

So I worked to adapt the Samsung slim drive ref. SE-S084, costing around € 60 - which I had already mentioned in the file 111-hypersinus-power-ripp. The goal is to reuse as much as possible the Phi² box of its predecessor. This external all USB external burner burns DVD +/- R in 8x, and CDs in 24x ... it is not very fast but this is the counterpart (and / or the pledge) of a very low consumption.



In these times when we are trying to save energy, here is the perfect opportunity to minimize the power consumption of the PC and the engraver-ripper. Icing on the cake, when you listen to music in your living room, you do not pollute the atmosphere with your large 4x4, and you enjoy life serenely, without stress ...

Multiple benefits

1) we will do without any mains supply and therefore inverter,
2) we will benefit from the CD blocking system with springs, much more precise in centering and more stabilizing of the rotating disc
3) the low current requirement by a small motor and even further IC integration make the addition of the capacitor ring unnecessary on the 5V
4) No device, Eeepc Asus and Samsung Recorder, will therefore be connected during the ripp neither to the 230V mains nor especially to the earth, even simply by means of the neutral.


The other side of the coin?

It remained to be seen whether these theoretical advantages were not paid for at a high price, that of the drop in musicality.

On February 8, 2011 on this same audiophile blog, I had said goodbye to you, thinking that I had definitely finished with audiophile hacks, it seems that it was premature ...

Mixed first listening tests

My first musical ripp tests (DAE) with the USB DVD-CD drive burner samsung SE-S084, in a context that was not very elaborate and little pushed when writing the file 111-hypersinus-power-ripp (see my comments to this subject at the end of the file), had not been conclusive but they hinted at some good prospects. I did not think then to push further, the future forced me with the irreparable failure of the Samsung SE-S224Q and that's good because I was not disappointed.

Still happy finds!

The audiophile slim Phi² ripper finally turns out to be a great musical success thanks to some discoveries which confirm that (almost) all PNI (unidentified disturbances, of electromagnetic, mechanical nature, and / or micro-interface discharges so dear to Pierre Johannet) are generated, transmitted or amplified during ripp mainly by the vibratory behavior of the system.

No electronic circuit or conventional low-pass filter can counter them and such a circuit often contributes to the opposite of what it is supposed to do, to increase them. The difficulty is therefore to succeed by different original means in transmuting these vibrations to a frequency close to infrared ... to have heat dissipation. It is important not to block them, which in digital audio causes even worse collateral damage musically. They must be channeled and dissipated gently.

Dissipate gently

It's easier said than done, and here are my solutions:

- 1 pendulum system with double weights is placed on the external cage (principle inaugurated on the previous Audiophile Phi²)
- 1 pendulum system with offset mass on a semi-flexible aluminum blade & copper / lead weight is now added internally
- 1 mixed box of bamboo charcoal / pure quartz sand is added internally to the drive -
- the drive plate and certain other parts are treated with carbon black
- 2 ferrite magnets are added on either side of the rotating CD
- 2 small pure copper sponges are inserted in the double shell at the drive



We do not change a team that has already won (except having to replace the player who is unfortunately dead)

The whole case therefore remains roughly that of the file 111-hypersinus-power-ripp, the environmental context of ripp also remains identical, with the exception of the external mains supply and the inverter which disappear, now useless.

http://api.guide.free.fr/blog/images/phi2slim.png

In the end an obvious musical success

The end result is amazing and totally convincing in 100% autonomous ripp, the Phi² audiophile slim ripper plugged in and powered by USB on the mini Eeepc 100% on its small batteries, placed on a mini Fakir mat:

- bass fishing, pulsation, rhythm, fine dynamics are there and do not depend, as I wrongly thought, on the crown of condos since it has disappeared.
- a large power supply or a large inverter is no longer used for ripp drive
- the sound has however lost all residue on the digital side, the distortion has further decreased, the desks are still gaining ventilation with better marked plans in depth
- the tuning fork seems lowered, with a low medium that is always more dense and rich, a treble which has lost all tinsel or scrapping. - the stamps are even richer, more detailed and I do not remember having heard any more dense, more provided other than live.

There is no photo on arrival

The difference on the same CDs ripped previously with the old audiophile Phi² ripper is obvious enough that there is not the slightest doubt about the qualitative gain.
Like what in audio you should never swear to anything and that the perfection that we believe has been achieved once and for all is always perfectible!

Open perspectives

With other discoveries made recently by P.D. who worked on the Totem (see glossary - accessory used in ripp as in reading),

it is likely that this version 1 of the Phi²slim engraver ripper will soon be followed by a version 2 or even always by version 1 but placed in a modified context .... To be continued.

Listen to test files

Audiophile music lovers who have access to the Audiophile Club will find there files treated wav sard demonstration which will allow them to appreciate with their own ears the different versions of ripp.

Not that crazy or delusional

In the 111-hypersinus-power-ripp folder, I wrote "Those who have not been used to my hacks for a long time may find this folder completely crazy and delusional ... to simply rip a CD ..." This 113-phi2slim file shows that we can greatly simplify the ripp system, reduce the cost, and have extraordinary musicality from our own audio CDs.



A simple but precise operating mode

To maintain total insulation from the mains and the earth, the Phi² audiophile slim ripper should be connected to a laptop or a Netbook working only on its own batteries when ripping, without a wired connection with ADSL or an Ethernet network. . Turn on the Eeepc with the two USB cords of the ripper already connected, wait until Windows 7 finishes installing everything on the desktop .... launch Ripstation micro, the drawer of the Phi² audiophile slim opens ... put an audio CD on ripper, close the drawer. The software informs the tracks then the extraction begins. When the wav file is obtained, process it in SARD with Adobe Audition 3 (paid audio editor, but there is a trial version) and my scripts (**). Then read it in ramdisk with AIMP2 version 2.50 312 with minimalist audiophile skin (free player software). Ram optimizer audiophile version (free software) must be Looped in 350 mS ...

Taste without moderation! You tell me the news! The only drawback is that you will want to rip all your CD library again ... too bad ... or so much the better! I'm used to it.

NB. For the most demanding, as soon as Ripstation micro (free software) has downloaded the titles of the audio tracks, immediately cut the Wifi of the Eeepc by pressing the Fn + F2 keys. Do not re-activate the Wifi until after the ripp is complete. The difference with and without Wifi is obvious!  But yes !

Of course when listening in SARD ++ on a good living room hi-fi system, the PC's Wifi must be switched off, the ADSL box must be switched off, the mobile telephones must be switched off, the DECT telephones in the home must be switched off and removed from their base.

PS. Remember, the original PCM (wav) format of the audio CD does not support tags, neither does SARD ++, but it is a very small drawback compared to the gain in musicality. We easily get around the problem by making long, explicit file names.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2020, 11:35:09 AM by TrueAudio »

Offline TrueAudio

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2020, 11:42:44 AM »
12/05/2011 by AA. .
Highly musical audiophile ripping, or how to optimize digital audio extraction

Magic !

This folder is a truly magical and essential follow-up to the 113-phi2slim.htm file. Why magic? Because the tools that are used here are not measurable with common instruments. On the other hand, listening, they are obvious, and even so much that we want to talk about magic if we do not know the scientific principles that explain them. We could just as easily speak of a miracle!
Like what the ear is the only instrument capable of appreciating true musicality.

The source above all

At best, a hi-fi system has only the quality of its weakest link. If this old adage remains true, it is nonetheless incomplete. Indeed, apart from the hi-fi system itself (which includes in its current meaning CD player, hard drive, Tuner, record player, preamp, amp, speakers), there exists a link which is not directly attached to it and which is decisive, however, is the source. Indeed CD player, hard disk, Tuner, record player, often called "sources" are not sources but source players.

In any Hi-Fi system, the quality of the source is paramount. More than any other link in the chain, the most sensitive and vulnerable is the source audio file, that of the phonogram.

The origin of the source

When I speak of phonogram, I mean the native file that gave birth to the audio CD or hybrid SACD. This studio master file directly from the sound recording has little to do with the poor musical signal that the audio CD is capable of playing back on a home CD player. However, there is this original phonogram on the audio CD. Unfortunately, he is extremely fragile, sensitive to the slightest contagion, like a bubble child devoid of natural antibodies, without self-defense.

It appears that the digital phonogram data extracted from the CD medium are extremely sensitive to external disturbing agents, interface micro-discharges, various electromagnetic radiation, mechanical vibrations, etc. as many troublemakers that I include under the general term PNI - Unidentified disturbances -

The audiophile slim Phi² engraver ripper

As such, the CD DVD Phi² audiophile slim ripper burner constitutes the element of the chain whose euphonization is to be refined with great care to obtain a phonogram almost identical to that of the sound recording.
The field of ripping, digital audio extraction (DAE in English) has always been neglected, because we mistakenly believed to have identified all the parameters. This blissful self-satisfaction was so firmly anchored in people's minds that the DAE remained frozen, untouched by any innovation that took into account what really mattered, namely musicality, far beyond the illusory "Bit perfect" or other "Accurate rip ".

3 essential factors

Extracting data from the audio signal depends on 3 things:

- extraction software,
- CDaudio drive player,
- and the environment in which this drive will work.
(assuming of course that the compact audio disc is new and correctly burned)


On the first point, I emphasize the significant differences that exist between the different extraction software. Use Ripstation micro or Ripstation micro DS or strictly AIMP2C (that of my favorite version 2.50 312), in extreme cases as a last choice we can use Exact Audio Copy (EAC) ... .all are free.

For the second point, the drive (a CD DVD burner) which will extract the data from the phonogram is equipped with a direct drive motor which spins the CD. This engine generates microvibrations and electromagnetic fields which have perverse effects. The most sophisticated separate drives used an indirect drive by rubber belt and played on mass, weight (like the CEC TL1 - 18 kg drive mechanics alone, without any D / A converter!). This filters mechanical vibrations well enough while keeping the motor away from the laser head. It was an extremely expensive luxury solution but which unfortunately remained limited to the quality of the standard even of the audio CD.

It is more elegant and more economical to reduce the power of the engine to the absolute minimum, to reduce vibrations and radiation. This is what the mini slim drive designed initially for laptops, and whose primary objective was energy saving and compactness. The electronic integration of these mini drives is pushed to the maximum, suddenly the path of data is reduced to a minimum which is an excellent thing.

The euphonized slim drive (see files 113 and 114) allows in my opinion a digital audio extraction almost incomparable by any other recorder even by putting 50 times more expensive.
Anyone who is a bit of a music lover will quickly realize the enormous musical breakthrough that this dossier allows, at a ridiculous cost! less than € 60 for the chosen Samsung drive ... (€ 58 at Auchan for example)

For the third point, that which concerns the environment in which the ripping takes place, let us give to Caesar what is to Caesar ...

At the origin of this file, there is a first major advance made by P.D. (audiophile handyman whose path we followed on blog n ° 2 - see TQWT) who worked to improve the Totem. P.D.'s brilliant idea was to reuse cardboard honeycomb packaging and garnish the alveoli with Guérande salt and then insert it into a Totem. His second discovery was (on my non-serious suggestion because it was never tested by me!) To treat the device with iodine tincture!
The third discovery of P.D. concerns another Totem, doped, adjustable, which he baptized "Eole" and whose effect on the musical level is also very beneficial.

It remained to find how to optimize everything according to my personal context which is different from his.



A musical blatant

improvement The ripps that PD had made with its two finds around the Totem were amazing, obviously much better in terms of naturalness, life, pep, musicality, emotion than what I had so far achieved to do better. Like what we must remain humble in audio.

This meant above all that the phonogram of the audio CD still had a lot of untapped, latent qualities!

Very easy and inexpensive DIY

File 114-totem- explains in detail how to make 4 hacks for a ridiculous cost price:

- a mini Sarco-salt iodine
- a Totem salt + iodine

Plus the variants which allow multiple combinations suitable for adapting to all local contexts, both in terms of ripping and reading in SARD ++ or playing compact disc in a conventional way with a living room CD player:

- a Sarco-salt iodine for classic CD player microphone (an adaptation made by PH)
- a Totem "Eole" (invented by PD)
Playing audio CDs also benefits!
The micro Sarco-salt iodine is placed on the flexible sheet which connects the mobile laser head to the printed circuit carrying the D / A converter of the CD player. This is doable on the SACD Phi Audiophile CD player, and probably easily doable on many classic salon CD players ... details and photos in update 114

Reconciling contradictory requirements

Several paths can lead to musical Nirvana.

A fine adjustment of the Totem 'Eole coupled with a mini Sarco-salt iodine makes it possible to obtain a ripp, therefore an audio source file, of an exceptional level of musicality which reconciles the extremes: hot and cold, soft and l sharp, fine dynamics and absolute dynamics, the smallest intentions or the most cataclysmic tuttis ... just like in live music in real concert. We can obtain the same result with a simple Totem salt iodine but at the cost of a delicate research work on the vibratory behavior of the support of the ripper. You can of course, if you are a very demanding music lover, combine the two.
[Salt iodine totem 127]

When the music breaks!

The musical contribution of this mini Sarco-salt to a specific location on the Phi² slim ripper gives the impression that a detonator was triggered which detonated the music. All the artists settle in their true place on the sound stage, in the flesh. A fresh air circulates between the desks which are distributed in a very differentiated way in width. In depth, the plans are distributed in a well-storied manner if the sound is good and we feel in the atmosphere a furious desire to play of each musician. When music springs up, it is imbued with this communicative power, this desire to make music and share it ... and it is a shimmer of timbres, colors, flavors, with a dynamic palette ranging from the smallest whisper to the grandest orchestral tutti ... All the senses are at the party ... it sparkles everywhere, what a treat!

A breath of life infusion

When we finally add the Totem Eole in the right place, it's as if we injected life, a surplus of humanity, an overdose of emotion in the music.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2020, 02:39:23 PM by TrueAudio »

Offline P.I.

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2020, 11:05:25 PM »
Wow!  A lotto digest here.  I wish I knew what some of his descriptors actually meant.

I need to re-read and re-read to try to figure out what the translation obscures.

I do agree that it is relatively easy to get superior rips from CDs that are better than the original CD.
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline TrueAudio

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2020, 04:02:17 PM »
Wow!  A lotto digest here.  I wish I knew what some of his descriptors actually meant.

I need to re-read and re-read to try to figure out what the translation obscures.

I do agree that it is relatively easy to get superior rips from CDs that are better than the original CD.
Hi Dave, yeah this guy is pretty interesting to be sure.  It's amazing how just when we thought we "had the bases covered" with our systems--there can be another dimension that is just sitting there waiting to be tapped into.  I'll post something now that is related to this, that I also just literally ran across within the last couple days.  There's so many things that are regarded as subjective, even though each of us, to ourselves, will swear by a thing, but tell it to someone else and they'll roll their eyes at you.

You know the green paint pen for the edge of CD's?  A lot of people will just laugh at something like that.  I used one along time ago, just because people said it made a difference.

One such person:  "But, audiofools, Joe Average, believe in the green marker CD pen, they believe in freezing Cds, and they wipe their Cd each time before playing in cd-player with a special cloth. I know such persons in real life."

Now there is actual measured proof that it does make a positive difference that can actually be measured.  This is an excellent example that shows us just how much we do not know about audio/material science, etc:

https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php?topic=73368.0

This is from 2009-07-14

Quote
After reading several DAE quality reports I decided to do one myself for my drive. However I ran into a few problems. C2extract.exe couldn´t find my drive - perhaps because it is an external USB drive. Also, the file reference.wav took almost an hour to produce and I had to do it with my older laptop. With the Desktop (P4 3.8 HT) it would have taken 10 hours (!).

So I sadly can´t provide info about c2 - sorry about that.

The process in detail:
- creating reference.wav with my laptop
- copying that file over network to the desktop PC
- burning with NERO with 8x speed onto a Fujifilm 52x CD-R
- ripping with EAC in burst mode
- EAC is allowed to reduce the speed during extraction
- every speed setting was tested (40x, 32x, 24x, 16x, 8x) - but in order to keep it compact I´ll only post the most interesting
- I repeated every rip for four times with every speed setting in order to rule out awkward things.
- the results you can see below are all coming from the 2nd rip.

Used drive: Samsung SE-S224Q external USB drive (similar to internal SH-S223Q)
Firmware: TS02

DAE Log:
Errors total        Num : 220452
Errors (Loudness)  Num :  6841 - Avg :  -69.8 dB(A)  -  Max :  -12.9 dB(A)
Error Muting        Num :  3888 - Avg :    3.4 Samples -  Max :    531 Samples
Skips              Num :      0 - Avg :    0.0 Samples -  Max :      0 Samples

Total Test Result      :  77.4 points (of 100.0 maximum)

DAE Log:
Errors total        Num : 121901
Errors (Loudness)  Num :  5582 - Avg :  -73.1 dB(A)  -  Max :  -25.0 dB(A)
Error Muting        Num :    791 - Avg :    2.1 Samples -  Max :    24 Samples
Skips              Num :      0 - Avg :    0.0 Samples -  Max :      0 Samples

Total Test Result      :  79.7 points (of 100.0 maximum)

DAE Log:
Errors total        Num : 93097
Errors (Loudness)  Num :  6789 - Avg :  -75.6 dB(A)  -  Max :  -33.1 dB(A)
Error Muting        Num :    392 - Avg :    1.7 Samples -  Max :      4 Samples
Skips              Num :      0 - Avg :    0.0 Samples -  Max :      0 Samples

Total Test Result      :  80.3 points (of 100.0 maximum)

I´d think that these results are pretty good for a drive. But I won´t draw conclusions too soon here because I doubt the reliability of the test. Since I did every rip with every speed four times I always had differences. I assume these differences are to be expected and they were admittedly small (around +/- 0.4 points difference at maximum) but since every one of us does create a slightly different CD the results could be worse or better, depending on the thickness of the black marker, the deepness of the scratches etc.

But now it gets interesting. As some of you may know I tend to live a bit on the funny side of the rainbow - I regularly paint the edges of my CD green. I did this first in 1993 and I do it still. Of course, I never did seek for an explanation, I just assumed the reasons for the sonical differences I encountered were just because of the common enemy of audiophiles: jitter. Over the years there were enough evidence to suggest that the infamous green marker does not have any benefit whatsoever and is utterly pointless.[

Now, let´s look at those results again. Circumstances for the tests are exactly as the ones above - only this time the same CD-R was treated with the green marker. Again I did four rips with every single speed setting and again the differences between those rips were around +/- 0.4 points. But the differences between no green marker / green marker were bigger all the time.

Quote
DAE Log:
Errors total        Num : 103987 (before 220452)
Errors (Loudness)  Num :  4186 - Avg :  -72.0 dB(A)  -  Max :  -18.2 dB(A)
Error Muting        Num :  1278 - Avg :    2.5 Samples -  Max :    111 Samples
Skips              Num :      0 - Avg :    0.0 Samples -  Max :      0 Samples

Total Test Result      :  79.3 points (of 100.0 maximum) (before: 77.4 points)

DAE Log:
Errors total        Num : 66927 (before 121901)
Errors (Loudness)  Num :  3391 - Avg :  -73.7 dB(A)  -  Max :  -23.4 dB(A)
Error Muting        Num :    479 - Avg :    2.6 Samples -  Max :    33 Samples
Skips              Num :      0 - Avg :    0.0 Samples -  Max :      0 Samples

Total Test Result      :  80.5 points (of 100.0 maximum) (before 79.7 points)

DAE Log:
Errors total        Num : 46076 (before 93097)
Errors (Loudness)  Num :  3765 - Avg :  -76.6 dB(A)  -  Max :  -35.1 dB(A)
Error Muting        Num :    247 - Avg :    1.7 Samples -  Max :      4 Samples
Skips              Num :      0 - Avg :    0.0 Samples -  Max :      0 Samples

Total Test Result      :  81.4 points (of 100.0 maximum) (before 80.3 points)

It appears that with the green marker the results are getting slightly better. I wasn´t particularly looking at the total test results. More interesting were the counts of total errors: with the green marker they are always half of what was counted before - with every speed. But I also won´t draw any conclusions here but these tests suggests that the error correction can interpolate better if the CD-R is treated with the green marker. So, what does the green marker do besides looking ugly on the CD or better said: what does it affect?

On a personal side note I might add that 77% to 82% error recovery capability are pretty good in my mind for a drive. Now I´m really confident that I can produce pristine rips, regardless if the CD is treated with green marker or not.
__________________________________________
Someone asked:

"How many times did you repeat the process?"

"Four times for every speed. I worked the speeds down from 40x - 8x and then started again. The green marker rips were done starting very late morning. All in all that makes... 40 rips."

__________________________________________
Interesting comment (after some other guy is being obnoxiously skeptical):

"I'm quite surprised! I always found it funny, when people did that. In my opinion the results are not necessarily insignificant.

Physically there is some sense. The light leaving the disk at the sides should be irrelevant, but the reflections inside the polycarbonate layer could add up to more than decreasing overall contrast somewhat by making the disc glow. Pits aren't perfectly flat so laser pulses can leak sideways, reflect at the disc's edge, and leak back into the photodiode at the currently read position.* These reflected sequences can be steeply edged and "ordered", because they are a function of the sequence just read between the present and the time the light needed to travel to the disc edge and back. Such a pattern could confuse the reading system much more than a mellow noise floor with a much higher average energy level.

But I'm just speculating, I don't have first hand data to illustrate this.

* It would be sufficient if this happened sometimes. Since light waves cancel each other out and add up light sound waves that would be possible."

Quote
Quite the sceptic, eh?

Here are the results for the same disc I used before, this time with the green marker removed. I´ll spare you the logs and the pictures. I hope the DAE quality log will suffice. If needed the other things can be posted also. Ah, before I forgot: This time I did only one rip for each speed since I see no point in doing this.


40x, green marker removed

Errors total        Num : 257383
Errors (Loudness)  Num :  8992 - Avg :  -71.0 dB(A)  -  Max :  -12.9 dB(A)
Error Muting        Num :  3400 - Avg :    2.7 Samples -  Max :    177 Samples
Skips              Num :      0 - Avg :    0.0 Samples -  Max :      0 Samples

Total Test Result      :  77.5 points (of 100.0 maximum)

24x, green marker removed

Errors total        Num : 203560
Errors (Loudness)  Num :  9214 - Avg :  -73.0 dB(A)  -  Max :  -21.2 dB(A)
Error Muting        Num :  1125 - Avg :    2.1 Samples -  Max :    51 Samples
Skips              Num :      0 - Avg :    0.0 Samples -  Max :      0 Samples

Total Test Result      :  78.8 points (of 100.0 maximum)


8x, green marker removed

Errors total        Num : 103196
Errors (Loudness)  Num :  5834 - Avg :  -74.4 dB(A)  -  Max :  -23.7 dB(A)
Error Muting        Num :    395 - Avg :    2.3 Samples -  Max :    37 Samples
Skips              Num :      0 - Avg :    0.0 Samples -  Max :      0 Samples

Total Test Result      :  80.2 points (of 100.0 maximum)

On the whole, not that much difference from the very first rips. But what did I expect then? Nothing else. I´ll do the rips with a second disc tomorrow. Now I´ll get some sleep.



"I for one never doubted that green marker around the edge of a CD could improve readability to some degree. Since the laser is red, any color that absorbs red could reduce the scattered light and increase the contrast.

On a project that I worked on many years ago we were designing hardware to read a barcode label applied to a glass surface. The labels were to be printed with very old inkjet technology so they could smear if they got wet. The solution was to apply a clear plastic window with an adhesive back over the label.

Unfortunately as soon as you applied the window, the barcode became completely unreadable, even though it appeared to be visually unchanged. The problem was that the barcode reader shone a light over a narrow area and the photo sensor looked at a wider region within this area. The adhesive from the window coated the fibers of the paper in such a way that the light spread horizontally instead of just being absorbed or reflected, so the signal to noise dropped too low. "

"This is far from scientific or anything, and it could even suffer from graynol's fact that the CD has become warmer, but without marker i tried ripping a problem track in dbpa which needed to rerip 14286 frames... after plastering the disc with a black marker it needed just 60 frames... I will definitely try this on my other problem discs! "



« Last Edit: July 18, 2020, 04:24:07 PM by TrueAudio »

Offline Nick B

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2020, 06:55:01 PM »
An interesting topic that I’ve read about some years ago, but was not nearly described in such detail. As Dave said...a lot of information to digest. I think I need a translation of the translation   :roll:
Yes, I recall the days of the green and black pens. There was also a tiny machined part that I superglued into place that narrowed the beam of the laser on my CD player.
As I stream way more than play my old ripped CDs, I likely won’t be reripping them. Thanks for posting.
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Offline doug s.

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2020, 04:48:39 PM »
and i found that a well-recorded patricia barbour cd, when copied on a basic computer drive and then to a black cd, the black cd sounded better; go figure.  not hugely better, but enough to tell.  the vinyl still sounded better, tho, except that the cd's lowest bass was slightly tighter.  but, even on the cd, the bass was recorded fat.

doug s.

Offline HAL

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2020, 04:52:57 PM »
How does the CD sound if you just bit perfect rip the CD to WAV files and play them back with a USB DAC? 

Offline doug s.

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2020, 04:55:57 PM »
i haven't got a clue.

doug s.
How does the CD sound if you just bit perfect rip the CD to WAV files and play them back with a USB DAC?

Offline P.I.

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2020, 10:01:07 PM »
For the highest quality rip here is what I do. I’m still using DB Poweramp...

Cryo the CD (yes, it matters)
Demag the CD
Demag a black CD
Burn with error correction enabled
Demag it again
Copy to the SSD
Transfer to the archive drive

Yes, every step makes an audible difference.

The real interesting aspects are cryo and demagnetizing.

A few years ago I sent 2 CDs of Pink Floyd “Mission Bell” out to people for comparison.  Unfortunately the recipients beat the shit out of both discs.  It was amazing to me the lack of respect that was shown to the discs, the process and to me.  I paid for the whole process.  That’s that “other site” for you 😞. 

I would be willing to buy 2 CD’, do the treatment burn a black CDand send it out to the group IF people here agree to treat them with kid gloves so everyone can hear (or not) the differences in protocols.

Anyone interested?

If so, suggest a recording and I will do this thing again.  The store bought CDs will be labeled #1 and #2.  Only and one other person of my choosing will know which is which.

Well recorded small group instrumentals with good vocals are the best subjects.  It is the spaces between the notes and well recorded acoustic instruments that reveal the most.  Dynamic range is a must.  Squashed hard rock is not worthy here.

Wanna play?
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline TrueAudio

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2020, 11:10:48 PM »
To reiterate part of what I quoted:

"- 1 pendulum system with double weights is placed on the external cage (principle inaugurated on the previous Audiophile Phi²)
- 1 pendulum system with offset mass on a semi-flexible aluminum blade & copper / lead weight is now added internally
- 1 mixed box of bamboo charcoal / pure quartz sand is added internally to the drive -
- the drive plate and certain other parts are treated with carbon black
- 2 ferrite magnets are added on either side of the rotating CD
- 2 small pure copper sponges are inserted in the double shell at the drive"

So, as you can see, this guy made a custom enclosure for his ripping drive, also utilizing different types of dampening materials.  Also, quartz? which I think would have some RFI absorbing ability--not sure what the bamboo charcoal does, nor the ferrite magnets around the rotating disc.  The copper sponges sounds to me like he made a faraday cage/shield around the drive inside the custom enclosure (there's so much crap in the air that this totally makes sense).  Sounds to me like this project was a labor of love to this guy, I wonder how long he experimented with this concept before he got a working prototype.  ALso notice that he made a battery power supply for this, so its not getting fed at all by the factory power supply (smps):  "a large power supply or a large inverter is no longer used for ripp drive

He's also privvy to the digital pollution from other devices, this guy is awake:

Of course when listening in SARD ++ on a good living room hi-fi system, the PC's Wifi must be switched off, the ADSL box must be switched off, the mobile telephones must be switched off, the DECT telephones in the home must be switched off and removed from their base.

I wonder how much he charges for one of these to be built, and if there's a way to get a hold of him and if he speaks English.  Of course, one could embark on trying to implement something like this yourself if you were so inclined.

This is so interesting to me because it is REALLY addressing the source, which could have unbelievable results if designed and build well.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2020, 11:16:39 PM by TrueAudio »

Offline Nick B

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2020, 12:01:39 AM »
For the highest quality rip here is what I do. I’m still using DB Poweramp...

Cryo the CD (yes, it matters)
Demag the CD
Demag a black CD
Burn with error correction enabled
Demag it again
Copy to the SSD
Transfer to the archive drive

Yes, every step makes an audible difference.

The real interesting aspects are cryo and demagnetizing.

A few years ago I sent 2 CDs of Pink Floyd “Mission Bell” out to people for comparison.  Unfortunately the recipients beat the shit out of both discs.  It was amazing to me the lack of respect that was shown to the discs, the process and to me.  I paid for the whole process.  That’s that “other site” for you 😞. 

I would be willing to buy 2 CD’, do the treatment burn a black CDand send it out to the group IF people here agree to treat them with kid gloves so everyone can hear (or not) the differences in protocols.

Anyone interested?

If so, suggest a recording and I will do this thing again.  The store bought CDs will be labeled #1 and #2.  Only and one other person of my choosing will know which is which.

Well recorded small group instrumentals with good vocals are the best subjects.  It is the spaces between the notes and well recorded acoustic instruments that reveal the most.  Dynamic range is a must.  Squashed hard rock is not worthy here.

Wanna play?

Dave,
I’d be all over this, but don’t have a CD player 😢 I sure hope some guys take you up on your generous offer. As to that CD damage, I wonder if the disks incurred some damage during shipping. That happened twice to me on DVD orders.
Nick
ICEpower 1200as2 amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
Fritz Carrera 7 BE speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
Auralic Aries Mini & Mojo Audio lps
Audio Envy cables
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline Nick B

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2020, 12:02:58 AM »
To reiterate part of what I quoted:

"- 1 pendulum system with double weights is placed on the external cage (principle inaugurated on the previous Audiophile Phi²)
- 1 pendulum system with offset mass on a semi-flexible aluminum blade & copper / lead weight is now added internally
- 1 mixed box of bamboo charcoal / pure quartz sand is added internally to the drive -
- the drive plate and certain other parts are treated with carbon black
- 2 ferrite magnets are added on either side of the rotating CD
- 2 small pure copper sponges are inserted in the double shell at the drive"

So, as you can see, this guy made a custom enclosure for his ripping drive, also utilizing different types of dampening materials.  Also, quartz? which I think would have some RFI absorbing ability--not sure what the bamboo charcoal does, nor the ferrite magnets around the rotating disc.  The copper sponges sounds to me like he made a faraday cage/shield around the drive inside the custom enclosure (there's so much crap in the air that this totally makes sense).  Sounds to me like this project was a labor of love to this guy, I wonder how long he experimented with this concept before he got a working prototype.  ALso notice that he made a battery power supply for this, so its not getting fed at all by the factory power supply (smps):  "a large power supply or a large inverter is no longer used for ripp drive

He's also privvy to the digital pollution from other devices, this guy is awake:

Of course when listening in SARD ++ on a good living room hi-fi system, the PC's Wifi must be switched off, the ADSL box must be switched off, the mobile telephones must be switched off, the DECT telephones in the home must be switched off and removed from their base.

I wonder how much he charges for one of these to be built, and if there's a way to get a hold of him and if he speaks English.  Of course, one could embark on trying to implement something like this yourself if you were so inclined.

This is so interesting to me because it is REALLY addressing the source, which could have unbelievable results if designed and build well.

Great information, TrueAudio  :thumb:
ICEpower 1200as2 amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
Fritz Carrera 7 BE speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
Auralic Aries Mini & Mojo Audio lps
Audio Envy cables
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline P.I.

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2020, 01:48:51 PM »
For the highest quality rip here is what I do. I’m still using DB Poweramp...

Cryo the CD (yes, it matters)
Demag the CD
Demag a black CD
Burn with error correction enabled
Demag it again
Copy to the SSD
Transfer to the archive drive

Yes, every step makes an audible difference.

The real interesting aspects are cryo and demagnetizing.

A few years ago I sent 2 CDs of Pink Floyd “Mission Bell” out to people for comparison.  Unfortunately the recipients beat the shit out of both discs.  It was amazing to me the lack of respect that was shown to the discs, the process and to me.  I paid for the whole process.  That’s that “other site” for you 😞. 

I would be willing to buy 2 CD’, do the treatment burn a black CDand send it out to the group IF people here agree to treat them with kid gloves so everyone can hear (or not) the differences in protocols.

Anyone interested?

If so, suggest a recording and I will do this thing again.  The store bought CDs will be labeled #1 and #2.  Only and one other person of my choosing will know which is which.

Well recorded small group instrumentals with good vocals are the best subjects.  It is the spaces between the notes and well recorded acoustic instruments that reveal the most.  Dynamic range is a must.  Squashed hard rock is not worthy here.

Wanna play?

Dave,
I’d be all over this, but don’t have a CD player 😢 I sure hope some guys take you up on your generous offer. As to that CD damage, I wonder if the disks incurred some damage during shipping. That happened twice to me on DVD orders.
Nick
The damage was obvious handling damage.  They both looked like they were handled with sandpaper gloves.  Scratches, abrasions, smudges...  Peope not caring for other's property.

The CD thing is being supplanted by streaming, but CD's STILL sound better IME.
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline malloy

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2020, 06:31:46 PM »
To reiterate part of what I quoted:

"- 1 pendulum system with double weights is placed on the external cage (principle inaugurated on the previous Audiophile Phi²)
- 1 pendulum system with offset mass on a semi-flexible aluminum blade & copper / lead weight is now added internally
- 1 mixed box of bamboo charcoal / pure quartz sand is added internally to the drive -
- the drive plate and certain other parts are treated with carbon black
- 2 ferrite magnets are added on either side of the rotating CD
- 2 small pure copper sponges are inserted in the double shell at the drive"

So, as you can see, this guy made a custom enclosure for his ripping drive, also utilizing different types of dampening materials.  Also, quartz? which I think would have some RFI absorbing ability--not sure what the bamboo charcoal does, nor the ferrite magnets around the rotating disc.  The copper sponges sounds to me like he made a faraday cage/shield around the drive inside the custom enclosure (there's so much crap in the air that this totally makes sense).  Sounds to me like this project was a labor of love to this guy, I wonder how long he experimented with this concept before he got a working prototype.  ALso notice that he made a battery power supply for this, so its not getting fed at all by the factory power supply (smps):  "a large power supply or a large inverter is no longer used for ripp drive

He's also privvy to the digital pollution from other devices, this guy is awake:

Of course when listening in SARD ++ on a good living room hi-fi system, the PC's Wifi must be switched off, the ADSL box must be switched off, the mobile telephones must be switched off, the DECT telephones in the home must be switched off and removed from their base.

I wonder how much he charges for one of these to be built, and if there's a way to get a hold of him and if he speaks English.  Of course, one could embark on trying to implement something like this yourself if you were so inclined.

This is so interesting to me because it is REALLY addressing the source, which could have unbelievable results if designed and build well.

This is exactly the stuff that makes people scoff at audiophiles AND exactly the stuff I've been looking for!!! :!: :!: I am assuming the kind of cd drive also makes a difference? I thought I read something somewhere about Plextor drives being very good?  I've been wanting to buy an external drive dedicated to ripping as I don't trust my PC's drive, but this is very thorough.

Dave's additional steps of cryo and demag should take it to another level.

Offline dflee

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2020, 06:58:58 PM »
Dave:
I'll spring for the cds since your doing a lot of dollar value work on this project.
Just let me know. We are talking regular cd right not mega buck ones.
I will suggest Blues Singer by Buddy Guy. Still blows me away when I hear it.

Nit
Not that Nit, The other Nit.