Author Topic: An inch Here an Inch There  (Read 1646 times)

Offline rollo

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An inch Here an Inch There
« on: January 16, 2020, 07:24:42 AM »
  Bought a laser measuring device to check my speaker location dimensions. Found that the left speaker was 3/4" off from being square to other speaker. there was a slight favoring of the sound from right side. Well not any longer.
  The fact that moving them a inch here and there to make it perfectly uniform the result was surprising. Better stage and imaging. Years ago when I had Maggies moving them a 1/2" changed the presentation. With that in mind I started moving them around from previous location. OMGoodness. What a difference an inch or two make. For me since I cannot move the Rethms out 6' from front wall I settled for 4'-6". Now at less than 4" BINGO. 
  Lesson ? If you think your speakers are positioned properly check them again. Ya never know.


charles
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Offline Brap

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Re: An inch Here an Inch There
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2020, 08:28:03 AM »
Do tell the spacing you have on the Fritz.  I have roughly 40" from back wall, about 9 feet apart, listen about 9 feet from center.
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Offline rollo

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Re: An inch Here an Inch There
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2020, 08:50:49 AM »
Do tell the spacing you have on the Fritz.  I have roughly 40" from back wall, about 9 feet apart, listen about 9 feet from center.

  I have them 7'-6" center to center. Back of speaker 30" from front wall. I sit 8' away.

charles
contact me  at rollo14@verizon.net or visit us on Facebook
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Offline Brap

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Re: An inch Here an Inch There
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2020, 08:54:48 AM »
thanks Charles -- I have the ability to try that and will experiment.  Problem I have is right one has a wall, left does not.
Fritz Carrera 7 Be
Transcendent OTL, VTA ST-70
Parasound Halo P5
Oppo 105
Rega RP3 - Ortofon Quintet Bronze
Cambridge CXN streamer
Teac 3340S
Anticables 3.1 and Blue Jeans

Offline doug s.

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Re: An inch Here an Inch There
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2020, 10:53:57 AM »
"...What a difference an inch or two make...."
that's what she said...   8)

sorry, couldn't resist...

doug s.

Offline doug s.

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Re: An inch Here an Inch There
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2020, 10:55:38 AM »
thanks Charles -- I have the ability to try that and will experiment.  Problem I have is right one has a wall, left does not.
try absorption and/or diffusion panels at the first reflection point at the wall to the right of the right speaker, and the exact same location on the left, if there were a wall present...

doug s.

Offline Barry (NJ)

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Re: An inch Here an Inch There
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2020, 12:16:18 PM »
A few months ago, I was at a demo of Genesis Advanced Technologies Speakers, and designer Gary Koh demonstrated how changes as little as 1/16" could have an effect on imaging. One speaker was angled back 1/16" more than the other, and the image was not as detailed as when it was brought into sync with it's partner. Immediately, height information, that was missing prior, was added to the sound-stage.
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Offline Brap

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Re: An inch Here an Inch There
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2020, 12:21:07 PM »
Interesting. I can understand that with the overall size of the Genesis line.  I am first experimenting with "toe-in or no toe-in"  Currently they are straight back and have a very nice soundstage but looking for the best.  Trying different tracks right now that give me the best with the current set-up and once chosen, will continue. Have had dealings with Gary and I am cautious of him.....
Fritz Carrera 7 Be
Transcendent OTL, VTA ST-70
Parasound Halo P5
Oppo 105
Rega RP3 - Ortofon Quintet Bronze
Cambridge CXN streamer
Teac 3340S
Anticables 3.1 and Blue Jeans

Offline doug s.

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Re: An inch Here an Inch There
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2020, 01:45:09 PM »
i've suggested this before, in other threads - try extreme toe-in, where the speakers intersect in front of the listening position.

doug s.
Interesting. I can understand that with the overall size of the Genesis line.  I am first experimenting with "toe-in or no toe-in"  Currently they are straight back and have a very nice soundstage but looking for the best.  Trying different tracks right now that give me the best with the current set-up and once chosen, will continue. Have had dealings with Gary and I am cautious of him.....

Offline Brap

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Re: An inch Here an Inch There
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2020, 01:50:18 PM »
Thanks.  since I have an initial point of reference now with them straight-away with a nice soundstage, every other option is open for experiment. Would seem to me that having them 9' apart listening about 9' away, extreme toe-in as suggested would create more "bounce" off the back wall?
Fritz Carrera 7 Be
Transcendent OTL, VTA ST-70
Parasound Halo P5
Oppo 105
Rega RP3 - Ortofon Quintet Bronze
Cambridge CXN streamer
Teac 3340S
Anticables 3.1 and Blue Jeans

Offline doug s.

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Re: An inch Here an Inch There
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2020, 02:03:10 PM »
not sure about back-wall bounce; i guess it depends on how close you are to the back wall.  i do know that it's not good to be close to the back wall, in any case; but in one living situation, where i was very close to the back wall, extreme toe-in was effective, possibly because the main "bounce" was directed away from the listening position.

in your case, i was thinking about the side walls; one being close, the other not.  and, i've found that even if room conditions are good, extreme toe-in works, especially for off-axis listening, as the speaker further way is aimed more directly at the listener than the closer speaker.

doug s.

Thanks.  since I have an initial point of reference now with them straight-away with a nice soundstage, every other option is open for experiment. Would seem to me that having them 9' apart listening about 9' away, extreme toe-in as suggested would create more "bounce" off the back wall?

Offline Brap

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Re: An inch Here an Inch There
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2020, 02:20:48 PM »
They are about 40" from the back wall now.
Fritz Carrera 7 Be
Transcendent OTL, VTA ST-70
Parasound Halo P5
Oppo 105
Rega RP3 - Ortofon Quintet Bronze
Cambridge CXN streamer
Teac 3340S
Anticables 3.1 and Blue Jeans

Offline Barry (NJ)

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Re: An inch Here an Inch There
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2020, 02:25:43 PM »
Interesting. I can understand that with the overall size of the Genesis line.  I am first experimenting with "toe-in or no toe-in"  Currently they are straight back and have a very nice soundstage but looking for the best.  Trying different tracks right now that give me the best with the current set-up and once chosen, will continue. Have had dealings with Gary and I am cautious of him.....

Well this was more about speaker symmetry, the floor wasn't perfectly level so one speaker was leaning back slightly (1/16") more than the other. Once this was corrected for the change was pretty dramatic. However, some designs may be more susceptible to this than others, so YMMV ;)
Happiness is when your system overcomes your nervosa ;) 
So much media, so little time... My Media Room...

Offline doug s.

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Re: An inch Here an Inch There
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2020, 02:33:44 PM »
oops - i was thinking the wall behind the listening position when you said "back wall".   :D

i don't think the toe-in will affect too much at the listening position the bounce off the wall behind the speakers, if you're 40" away. or even if closer.  with omnis, dipoles, etc, the situation will be a lot different.  in any event, experimentation is the only way to really know.

btw, the only time i ever heard a pair of speakers throw a huge soundstage when pointed straight-ahead were thiel 2.5's, 3.0's and 3.5's, in a big room, at least 6' from any walls...

doug s.
They are about 40" from the back wall now.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 02:35:27 PM by doug s. »

Offline steve

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Re: An inch Here an Inch There
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2020, 03:22:39 PM »
A few months ago, I was at a demo of Genesis Advanced Technologies Speakers, and designer Gary Koh demonstrated how changes as little as 1/16" could have an effect on imaging. One speaker was angled back 1/16" more than the other, and the image was not as detailed as when it was brought into sync with it's partner. Immediately, height information, that was missing prior, was added to the sound-stage.

Hi Barry,

Absolutely agree. I move my speakers the width, or less, of a 0,5mm pen mark I make. It is good to see others who agree with such measurements.

Cheers
steve
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