Author Topic: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated  (Read 907 times)

Offline Nick B

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Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2019, 02:28:31 PM »
Nick you aren't near any shows! Hmm.

Yes, Jeremy. Nothing close by except for CES in Las Vegas and I lost my connection to get a pass a few years ago. I do have family in So California and maybe there are some shows in Los Angeles or Orange County. I would like to do RMAF, but it would be quite a tab for hotel rooms and other expenses and would be at least a 12-14 hour drive.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2019, 02:31:47 PM by Nick B »
ICEpower 1200as2 stereo amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
Fritz Carrera 7 BE speakers
Border Patrol SE dac
Auralic Aries Mini
Roon & Tidal
Don Sachs phono
Basis Ovation turntable
Graham 1.5 T tonearm
AT-ML150 cartridge
PI Audio Uber
All cables by Gary A

Offline Folsom

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Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2019, 05:22:05 PM »
Ya, there's nothing cheap about shows. AirBnB might help. Honestly the sound is often bad. Finding locals to listen to their gear is a safe bet in many ways.

Offline Nick B

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Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2019, 06:02:46 PM »
Ya, there's nothing cheap about shows. AirBnB might help. Honestly the sound is often bad. Finding locals to listen to their gear is a safe bet in many ways.

Had a contractor here today and heís traveling this weekend to Colorado to visit family. I mentioned RMAF in October and he chuckled and said donít consider driving and there will be snow to deal with.
Iíll admit the sound is sometimes poor at shows, but the ones Iíve attended have been fun as I enjoy chatting with audio enthusiasts.
ICEpower 1200as2 stereo amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
Fritz Carrera 7 BE speakers
Border Patrol SE dac
Auralic Aries Mini
Roon & Tidal
Don Sachs phono
Basis Ovation turntable
Graham 1.5 T tonearm
AT-ML150 cartridge
PI Audio Uber
All cables by Gary A

Offline steve

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Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2019, 12:53:15 PM »

Had a contractor here today and heís traveling this weekend to Colorado to visit family. I mentioned RMAF in October and he chuckled and said donít consider driving and there will be snow to deal with.
Iíll admit the sound is sometimes poor at shows, but the ones Iíve attended have been fun as I enjoy chatting with audio enthusiasts.

Nick, I have a few techniques/experiments that might help you. I did not read all the previous posts, so please forgive me if you have tried these.

1) Rotate the speakers just a smidgen, 1/16"/1/8" or so towards you and away from you to see how the sound reacts. Maybe also forwards and backwards as well. Just a tiny bit one way or the other may be enough to relieve the harshness. Another adjustment is spread the speakers slightly further apart, or closer together. Just a smidgen.

2) Move around the room near the floor, centered between the speakers, and find where the bass is
least/sound is thinner. Flop a pillow at that spot.

3) Different but similar to pt. 2. Try to find two spots near the floor, hopefully symmetrical to both your listening position and each speaker, and flop a pillow at each location. If we adjust the response reflections from one speaker, we want to do the same with the other speaker.

Just a thought, could be tedious, but an audiophile buddy Dan, has performed this to nice improvements.
Depending upon speaker, setup etc, one way may help and the other may exaggerate the condition you are experiencing. Also, other parameters will change a little as well. Maybe worth a try.

cheers and good luck with whichever you decide from suggestions in this string Nick.

steve

« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 07:49:46 PM by steve »
Steve Sammet (retired, owner, EE, SAS Audio Labs)
"V" Very Low Capacitance ICs
SAS Audio Labs Test Phono Stage
SAS Audio 11A Tube Reference Preamplifier
SAS Audio Labs 25 W Triode Reference Monoblocks
2 way test Spkrs, 28 - 20khz  -3db (28hz)

Offline rollo

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Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2019, 12:58:47 PM »
  There is one coming up in Tampa. Good weather good crowd.


charles
contact me  at rollo14@verizon.net or visit us on Facebook
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Offline Nick B

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Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2019, 08:21:41 PM »
Ya, there's nothing cheap about shows. AirBnB might help. Honestly the sound is often bad. Finding locals to listen to their gear is a safe bet in many ways.

Had a contractor here today and heís traveling this weekend to Colorado to visit family. I mentioned RMAF in October and he chuckled and said donít consider driving and there will be snow to deal with.
Iíll admit the sound is sometimes poor at shows, but the ones Iíve attended have been fun as I enjoy chatting with audio enthusiasts.

Nick, I have a couple of techniques/experiments that might help you. I did not read all the previous posts, so please forgive me if you have tried these.

1) Rotate the speakers just a smidgen, 1/16"/1/8" or so towards you and away from you to see how the sound reacts. Just a tiny bit one way or the other may be enough to relieve the harshness. Another adjustment is spread the speakers slightly further apart, or closer together. Just a smidgen.

2) Move around the room near the floor, centered between the speakers, and find where the bass is
least/sound is thinner. Flop a pillow at that spot.

3) Different but similar to pt. 2. Try to find two spots near the floor, hopefully symmetrical to both your listening position and each speaker, and flop a pillow at each location. If we adjust the response reflections from one speaker, we want to do the same with the other speaker.

Just a thought, could be tedious, but an audiophile buddy Dan, has performed this to nice improvements.
Depending upon speaker, setup etc, one way may help and the other may exaggerate the condition you are experiencing. Also, other parameters will change a little as well.

cheers and good luck with whichever you decide from suggestions in this string.

steve

Thanks, Steve.  Iíll give this a go. Part of the harshness issue Iím sure is some of those old, crummy recordings I listen to on Tidal. But itís a sacrifice I readily make... This issue was also present with my McCormack DNA 1. Iím thinking a tube amp might also take the edge off so to speak.
Iíve heard that speaker placement can be quite critical, but fractions of an inch?  :shock: I have pillows, so no problem as to that suggestion. As for crawling around on the floor.. the subwoofer crawl as Iíve heard it named ...the hard part would be getting up. Old age creeping in.
I am curious about bass traps and that some of these can/should be placed at the wall and ceiling intersection. I thought bass waves remained at floor level, so the ceiling mention is puzzling. I continue to do some reading and watch videos regarding room treatments.
I appreciate your input.
Nick
ICEpower 1200as2 stereo amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
Fritz Carrera 7 BE speakers
Border Patrol SE dac
Auralic Aries Mini
Roon & Tidal
Don Sachs phono
Basis Ovation turntable
Graham 1.5 T tonearm
AT-ML150 cartridge
PI Audio Uber
All cables by Gary A

Offline Jack

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Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2019, 09:33:15 PM »
Nick

If the high end harshness is only evident on certain recordings from Tidal then changing the amp won't alleviate the problem just soften it a bit.  There are plenty of recordings from "our era" that were originally recorded in Analog for vinyl whose transfers to digital didn't go well and no matter how many times they reissue them with supposed fixes it doesn't help.  I also found the playback of some of these recordings to be more forward and aggressive on Tidal than on Qobuz.  It may be worth subscribing to the 30 day trial for Qobuz Premier and see if that helps as it did here.  Also if you haven't upgraded the power supply on the Mini to an LPS that will also help.  When I was using my Mini I upgraded the power supply pretty quickly and it did help.  Also getting the rear edge of the Carrera's closer to 24" from the back wall will help with the "boom though on many recordings that is intentional.  Time on the drivers will also play a part. 
JVC QL-Y7 with Denon DL-301 Mk II
Vista Phono II
Nuprime CDT-8
Supratek Chardonnay
BHK 250 amp
Aqua La Voce S3
Auralic Aries G1
Verity Audio Otello or Reynaud Abscissa Jubilee
(2) Rythmik F12SE
TWL PC's USB and SC
Audio Envy IC's
PSA Stellar P3
Uberbuss

Offline doug s.

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Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2019, 06:38:11 AM »
nick, what's the toe-in on your speakers?  have you tried toeing them in so the intersection is a couple of feet in front of the listening position?

doug s.

Offline mdconnelly

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Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2019, 08:04:29 AM »
Nick, perhaps you've already answered this earlier, but what kind of support are your speakers sitting on?  I've got a very different room and speakers, but  I was having a good bit of bass boominess and lack of clarity awhile back.   I replaced the spikes on my speakers with IsoAcoustics GAIA footers and all I can say is WOW.   Completely cleaned up the boom.   I also put the IsoAcoustics OREA footers under my Devialet which also improved things (but not as much as under the speakers).   Probably the best tweaks I've ever used.   Anyway, just a thought.

Offline Nick B

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Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2019, 09:03:45 AM »
Nick

If the high end harshness is only evident on certain recordings from Tidal then changing the amp won't alleviate the problem just soften it a bit.  There are plenty of recordings from "our era" that were originally recorded in Analog for vinyl whose transfers to digital didn't go well and no matter how many times they reissue them with supposed fixes it doesn't help.  I also found the playback of some of these recordings to be more forward and aggressive on Tidal than on Qobuz.  It may be worth subscribing to the 30 day trial for Qobuz Premier and see if that helps as it did here.  Also if you haven't upgraded the power supply on the Mini to an LPS that will also help.  When I was using my Mini I upgraded the power supply pretty quickly and it did help.  Also getting the rear edge of the Carrera's closer to 24" from the back wall will help with the "boom though on many recordings that is intentional.  Time on the drivers will also play a part.

Jack,
The harshness is partly based on poor recordings and forward and aggressive is a good description. There are recordings, though, from good performers on labels that have the same edginess.
For example, last night I was listening to the wonderful vocalists, acavoce. I was still able to enjoy the music. Itíll all work out.

I should give Qobuz another try as you suggest. Maybe after Iím done with holiday travel. As to the Auralic Mini, I have used a LPS from Mojo Audio. As Iím out of good power cords, I just use a stock cord. I moved the Carreras out more from the wall and will move them out more again tonight. The bass did improve and stabilize. Iím nearly at 200 hours now on the Carreras.
Nick
ICEpower 1200as2 stereo amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
Fritz Carrera 7 BE speakers
Border Patrol SE dac
Auralic Aries Mini
Roon & Tidal
Don Sachs phono
Basis Ovation turntable
Graham 1.5 T tonearm
AT-ML150 cartridge
PI Audio Uber
All cables by Gary A

Offline Nick B

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Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2019, 09:07:04 AM »
nick, what's the toe-in on your speakers?  have you tried toeing them in so the intersection is a couple of feet in front of the listening position?

doug s.

Doug,
Very slight toe in. Only half an inch measurement difference from the wall. Have had more toe in previously. I havenít toed them in nearly to the extent you suggest Will do so tonight.
Nick
ICEpower 1200as2 stereo amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
Fritz Carrera 7 BE speakers
Border Patrol SE dac
Auralic Aries Mini
Roon & Tidal
Don Sachs phono
Basis Ovation turntable
Graham 1.5 T tonearm
AT-ML150 cartridge
PI Audio Uber
All cables by Gary A

Offline Nick B

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Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2019, 09:14:32 AM »
Nick, perhaps you've already answered this earlier, but what kind of support are your speakers sitting on?  I've got a very different room and speakers, but  I was having a good bit of bass boominess and lack of clarity awhile back.   I replaced the spikes on my speakers with IsoAcoustics GAIA footers and all I can say is WOW.   Completely cleaned up the boom.   I also put the IsoAcoustics OREA footers under my Devialet which also improved things (but not as much as under the speakers).   Probably the best tweaks I've ever used.   Anyway, just a thought.

I have them resting on a metal stand. No spikes under the speakers and none on the floor as the wall to wall carpeting has been replaced. Will take a look again at IsoAcoustics. Thanks, Nick.

ICEpower 1200as2 stereo amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
Fritz Carrera 7 BE speakers
Border Patrol SE dac
Auralic Aries Mini
Roon & Tidal
Don Sachs phono
Basis Ovation turntable
Graham 1.5 T tonearm
AT-ML150 cartridge
PI Audio Uber
All cables by Gary A

Offline steve

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Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2019, 10:00:44 AM »
Ya, there's nothing cheap about shows. AirBnB might help. Honestly the sound is often bad. Finding locals to listen to their gear is a safe bet in many ways.

Had a contractor here today and heís traveling this weekend to Colorado to visit family. I mentioned RMAF in October and he chuckled and said donít consider driving and there will be snow to deal with.
Iíll admit the sound is sometimes poor at shows, but the ones Iíve attended have been fun as I enjoy chatting with audio enthusiasts.

Nick, I have a couple of techniques/experiments that might help you. I did not read all the previous posts, so please forgive me if you have tried these.

1) Rotate the speakers just a smidgen, 1/16"/1/8" or so towards you and away from you to see how the sound reacts. Just a tiny bit one way or the other may be enough to relieve the harshness. Another adjustment is spread the speakers slightly further apart, or closer together. Just a smidgen.

2) Move around the room near the floor, centered between the speakers, and find where the bass is
least/sound is thinner. Flop a pillow at that spot.

3) Different but similar to pt. 2. Try to find two spots near the floor, hopefully symmetrical to both your listening position and each speaker, and flop a pillow at each location. If we adjust the response reflections from one speaker, we want to do the same with the other speaker.

Just a thought, could be tedious, but an audiophile buddy Dan, has performed this to nice improvements.
Depending upon speaker, setup etc, one way may help and the other may exaggerate the condition you are experiencing. Also, other parameters will change a little as well.

cheers and good luck with whichever you decide from suggestions in this string.

steve

Thanks, Steve.  Iíll give this a go. Part of the harshness issue Iím sure is some of those old, crummy recordings I listen to on Tidal. But itís a sacrifice I readily make... This issue was also present with my McCormack DNA 1. Iím thinking a tube amp might also take the edge off so to speak.
Iíve heard that speaker placement can be quite critical, but fractions of an inch?  :shock: I have pillows, so no problem as to that suggestion. As for crawling around on the floor.. the subwoofer crawl as Iíve heard it named ...the hard part would be getting up. Old age creeping in.
I am curious about bass traps and that some of these can/should be placed at the wall and ceiling intersection. I thought bass waves remained at floor level, so the ceiling mention is puzzling. I continue to do some reading and watch videos regarding room treatments.
I appreciate your input.
Nick

Fraction of an inch? Yes and more Nick. Dan and I have actually placed 0,5mm pen markings below the speakers and moved the speakers the marks thickness or less. The differences we heard here included sound staging, tonal balance, edginess etc.

Another example that might help, one of the last things I did to finish my system was to rid of some gold plated banana plugs.

I was testing to find out how many parallel 18 gauge wires I needed for optimum sonics. This included total gauge for damping as well as minimal inductance for upper frequencies etc.

So some copper wires were directly installed in the amplifier/speaker jacks and some were via banana plugs, which made it easy to add or subtract wires. How much sonic difference could it make with just some connected via banana plugs? I still had copper to copper connection via some wires. More than I assumed.

When I rid of the banana plugs, I had to adjust my two fine tuning controls on the speakers again. Just a simple tweak as removing gold plated brass banana plugs made a significant sonic difference.

Just an example that might help Nick. Maybe just check everything and see if there might be something, like banana plugs, that could be tweaked, loose connections, cleaning and/or spray cleaning connections etc.

I am still checking to see if I have another possible tweak hiding somewhere. Again just thoughts that might help Nick.

steve
Steve Sammet (retired, owner, EE, SAS Audio Labs)
"V" Very Low Capacitance ICs
SAS Audio Labs Test Phono Stage
SAS Audio 11A Tube Reference Preamplifier
SAS Audio Labs 25 W Triode Reference Monoblocks
2 way test Spkrs, 28 - 20khz  -3db (28hz)

Offline Nick B

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Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2019, 10:47:50 AM »
Ya, there's nothing cheap about shows. AirBnB might help. Honestly the sound is often bad. Finding locals to listen to their gear is a safe bet in many ways.

Had a contractor here today and heís traveling this weekend to Colorado to visit family. I mentioned RMAF in October and he chuckled and said donít consider driving and there will be snow to deal with.
Iíll admit the sound is sometimes poor at shows, but the ones Iíve attended have been fun as I enjoy chatting with audio enthusiasts.

Nick, I have a couple of techniques/experiments that might help you. I did not read all the previous posts, so please forgive me if you have tried these.

1) Rotate the speakers just a smidgen, 1/16"/1/8" or so towards you and away from you to see how the sound reacts. Just a tiny bit one way or the other may be enough to relieve the harshness. Another adjustment is spread the speakers slightly further apart, or closer together. Just a smidgen.

2) Move around the room near the floor, centered between the speakers, and find where the bass is
least/sound is thinner. Flop a pillow at that spot.

3) Different but similar to pt. 2. Try to find two spots near the floor, hopefully symmetrical to both your listening position and each speaker, and flop a pillow at each location. If we adjust the response reflections from one speaker, we want to do the same with the other speaker.

Just a thought, could be tedious, but an audiophile buddy Dan, has performed this to nice improvements.
Depending upon speaker, setup etc, one way may help and the other may exaggerate the condition you are experiencing. Also, other parameters will change a little as well.

cheers and good luck with whichever you decide from suggestions in this string.

steve

Thanks, Steve.  Iíll give this a go. Part of the harshness issue Iím sure is some of those old, crummy recordings I listen to on Tidal. But itís a sacrifice I readily make... This issue was also present with my McCormack DNA 1. Iím thinking a tube amp might also take the edge off so to speak.
Iíve heard that speaker placement can be quite critical, but fractions of an inch?  :shock: I have pillows, so no problem as to that suggestion. As for crawling around on the floor.. the subwoofer crawl as Iíve heard it named ...the hard part would be getting up. Old age creeping in.
I am curious about bass traps and that some of these can/should be placed at the wall and ceiling intersection. I thought bass waves remained at floor level, so the ceiling mention is puzzling. I continue to do some reading and watch videos regarding room treatments.
I appreciate your input.
Nick

Fraction of an inch? Yes and more Nick. Dan and I have actually placed 0,5mm pen markings below the speakers and moved the speakers the marks thickness or less. The differences we heard here included sound staging, tonal balance, edginess etc.

Another example that might help, one of the last things I did to finish my system was to rid of some gold plated banana plugs.

I was testing to find out how many parallel 18 gauge wires I needed for optimum sonics. This included total gauge for damping as well as minimal inductance for upper frequencies etc.

So some copper wires were directly installed in the amplifier/speaker jacks and some were via banana plugs, which made it easy to add or subtract wires. How much sonic difference could it make with just some connected via banana plugs? I still had copper to copper connection via some wires. More than I assumed.

When I rid of the banana plugs, I had to adjust my two fine tuning controls on the speakers again. Just a simple tweak as removing gold plated brass banana plugs made a significant sonic difference.

Just an example that might help Nick. Maybe just check everything and see if there might be something, like banana plugs, that could be tweaked, loose connections, cleaning and/or spray cleaning connections etc.

I am still checking to see if I have another possible tweak hiding somewhere. Again just thoughts that might help Nick.

steve

Thanks for your input, Steve. Iím developing a long to do list   :shock: :) Nick
ICEpower 1200as2 stereo amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
Fritz Carrera 7 BE speakers
Border Patrol SE dac
Auralic Aries Mini
Roon & Tidal
Don Sachs phono
Basis Ovation turntable
Graham 1.5 T tonearm
AT-ML150 cartridge
PI Audio Uber
All cables by Gary A

Offline Jack

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Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2019, 12:02:50 PM »
Nick

For between the speakers and the stands I would just use the IsoAcoustics Pucks which are half the price of the Gaia's and were designed for use in Studios to isolate the monitors.  Also the Herbie's products will do a similar things and are even cheaper. 

https://herbiesaudiolab.com/collections/loudspeaker-rack-decoupling-and-isolation/products/thin-fat-dot

The gliders instead of spikes on the stands also work well.  Also a good source for power cables at a reasonable price is Audio Envy in Colorado.  Cap will allow a trial period as will Pete.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2019, 12:09:00 PM by Jack »
JVC QL-Y7 with Denon DL-301 Mk II
Vista Phono II
Nuprime CDT-8
Supratek Chardonnay
BHK 250 amp
Aqua La Voce S3
Auralic Aries G1
Verity Audio Otello or Reynaud Abscissa Jubilee
(2) Rythmik F12SE
TWL PC's USB and SC
Audio Envy IC's
PSA Stellar P3
Uberbuss