Author Topic: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers  (Read 4769 times)

Offline Nick B

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2078
Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #75 on: December 08, 2019, 12:50:25 AM »
It’s really late here....as I’ve been up listening to the Fritzes. Still improving  :thumb:
Anyway, just got caught up reading this thread. Fritz can build all kinds of stuff. See this link and nearly all the way down on the left. I was just thinking tonight that if I moved and had more space, I’d have Fritz build me bigger speakers.

http://fritzspeakers.com/
ICEpower 1200as2 amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
Fritz Carrera 7 BE speakers
Border Patrol SE dac
Auralic Aries Mini & Mojo Audio lps
Roon, Tidal & Qobuz
Don Sachs phono
Basis Ovation turntable
Graham 1.5 T tonearm
AT-ML150 cartridge
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline mresseguie

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 333
Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #76 on: December 08, 2019, 07:02:48 AM »
This is turning into a really interesting brain-storming idea thread.  :thumb:

What led me down this path was that I made an impulse buy of a brand new pair of CSS-Audio LD25X tweeters. The first 40 pairs were available at a nice discount to get, so I jumped on a pair without much thought on what I wanted in a pair of speakers. Once they were in my hot little hands, I began thinking about what kind of speakers I wanted. I quickly decided that I wanted a nice midrange driver and an 8" to 10" woofer. For cabinets, I'm pretty certain I want stand-mounted speakers - perhaps 24 to 26" tall by 9" to 12" wide. Depth - thanks to my TV cabinet's depth - could be as much as 22".

Before Nick began this thread about Carreras, I had already tentatively tightened my midrange driver choices to a Satori mid, a Revelator mid, and an AT mid. I'm still fishing for a woofer.

Now, I've never heard the LD25X tweeter. I've heard its little brother - the 22mm driver, but I haven't compared its sound to other tweeters. I don't know how committed I am to using the LD25X for this idea. I know for a fact that I like the tweeter in the Fritz LS/5-R speakers. It's the same one that Fritz uses in his Rev 7 SE speakers. This led me to wonder if I could get Fritz (or another speaker designer) to modify a pair of Carreras or Rev 7 SEs by adding a big woofer to make a three-way. [I know. Call Fritz to chat with him. I eventually will, but not from 5000 miles away.]

That's all for the moment. My wife and I are departing ATL for Taiwan in a few hours (with a 6-hour wait in SeaTac) for our connecting flight to Taiwan. I don't have adequate time to fully explain my thinking right now, so I'll try to follow up later - perhaps while we're languishing at SeaTac.

Michael
« Last Edit: December 08, 2019, 07:52:21 AM by mresseguie »
Daedalus Audio Apollos; Fritz Loudspeakers LS/5-R
SW1X DAC III STD
dB Audio Labs Tranquility SE DAC w/Jupiter Caps
Don Sachs Model 2
Don Sachs Kootenay 120 KT88; Nuprime ST-10
TWL loom
PI Audio UberBUSS, DigiBUSS, Uber-MiniBUSS
PI Audio USB cable
Mac Mini

Offline Nick B

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2078
Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #77 on: December 08, 2019, 11:56:41 AM »
This is turning into a really interesting brain-storming idea thread.  :thumb:

What led me down this path was that I made an impulse buy of a brand new pair of CSS-Audio LD25X tweeters. The first 40 pairs were available at a nice discount to get, so I jumped on a pair without much thought on what I wanted in a pair of speakers. Once they were in my hot little hands, I began thinking about what kind of speakers I wanted. I quickly decided that I wanted a nice midrange driver and an 8" to 10" woofer. For cabinets, I'm pretty certain I want stand-mounted speakers - perhaps 24 to 26" tall by 9" to 12" wide. Depth - thanks to my TV cabinet's depth - could be as much as 22".

Before Nick began this thread about Carreras, I had already tentatively tightened my midrange driver choices to a Satori mid, a Revelator mid, and an AT mid. I'm still fishing for a woofer.

Now, I've never heard the LD25X tweeter. I've heard its little brother - the 22mm driver, but I haven't compared its sound to other tweeters. I don't know how committed I am to using the LD25X for this idea. I know for a fact that I like the tweeter in the Fritz LS/5-R speakers. It's the same one that Fritz uses in his Rev 7 SE speakers. This led me to wonder if I could get Fritz (or another speaker designer) to modify a pair of Carreras or Rev 7 SEs by adding a big woofer to make a three-way. [I know. Call Fritz to chat with him. I eventually will, but not from 5000 miles away.]

That's all for the moment. My wife and I are departing ATL for Taiwan in a few hours (with a 6-hour wait in SeaTac) for our connecting flight to Taiwan. I don't have adequate time to fully explain my thinking right now, so I'll try to follow up later - perhaps while we're languishing at SeaTac.

Michael

OK, Michael. I’m curious as to the rest of your thoughts  :thumb:
Nick
ICEpower 1200as2 amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
Fritz Carrera 7 BE speakers
Border Patrol SE dac
Auralic Aries Mini & Mojo Audio lps
Roon, Tidal & Qobuz
Don Sachs phono
Basis Ovation turntable
Graham 1.5 T tonearm
AT-ML150 cartridge
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline Folsom

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 420
Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #78 on: December 08, 2019, 03:27:55 PM »
You can ask Fritz but his crossover style is incompatible with 3 ways. It would be hard to call it a Fritz afterwards.

Designing a crossover for a speaker is challenging because you really have to measure in box.

What are the goals for the sound of the speaker?

Offline Nick B

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2078
Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #79 on: December 08, 2019, 06:51:43 PM »
You can ask Fritz but his crossover style is incompatible with 3 ways. It would be hard to call it a Fritz afterwards.

Designing a crossover for a speaker is challenging because you really have to measure in box.

What are the goals for the sound of the speaker?

Fritz told me casually he can make bigger speakers, but they’ll be “kind of heavy”.          I believe he wires the crossover in series. As I’ve previously mentioned, I don’t know that much technically. I do recall as a child many years ago, that our Christmas tree lights were wired in series. It was rather tedious and sometimes very time-consuming to find the burned out bulb(s)
ICEpower 1200as2 amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
Fritz Carrera 7 BE speakers
Border Patrol SE dac
Auralic Aries Mini & Mojo Audio lps
Roon, Tidal & Qobuz
Don Sachs phono
Basis Ovation turntable
Graham 1.5 T tonearm
AT-ML150 cartridge
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline Guy 13

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 888
  • Audio should be simple !
Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #80 on: December 08, 2019, 07:56:23 PM »
You can ask Fritz but his crossover style is incompatible with 3 ways. It would be hard to call it a Fritz afterwards.

Designing a crossover for a speaker is challenging because you really have to measure in box.

What are the goals for the sound of the speaker?

Fritz told me casually he can make bigger speakers, but they’ll be “kind of heavy”.          I believe he wires the crossover in series. As I’ve previously mentioned, I don’t know that much technically. I do recall as a child many years ago, that our Christmas tree lights were wired in series. It was rather tedious and sometimes very time-consuming to find the burned out bulb(s)

Hi Nick.
If the Christmas light bulbs were wired in series it's not easy to find which one is burnt,
because they all go out at the same time.
So, I agree with you.

Guy 13
Grace Digital Mondo RIT
Cambridge Mini sub 2.1
Schiit Fulla 2 DAC
Schiit SYS PCC
Sony Passive Bookshelf speakers
Lot more stuff on storage
prior to moving back to Canada.

Offline rollo

  • Industry Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 5899
  • Rollo Audio - Home demo the only way to know
Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #81 on: December 09, 2019, 06:59:46 AM »
  The Fritz two way is the one. The crossover is so well designed that a three way is just not warranted. Get a sub if ya need more. The beauty of Fritz designs is really the quality and great engineering of the crossover. Don't fool with it. Snell as well leave it the $%#& alone. The biggest reason we sell them. KISS.

charles
contact me  at rollo14@verizon.net or visit us on Facebook
Lamm - Aqua Acoustic Formula & La Scala DAC- INNUOS  - Rethm Speakers - PI Audio Uberbuss - Triode Wire Labs- Kuzma - QLN - Audio Hungry Qualiton - Fritz speakers -Gigawatt-Arion-Vinnie Rossi

Offline Folsom

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 420
Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #82 on: December 09, 2019, 11:00:44 AM »
You can ask Fritz but his crossover style is incompatible with 3 ways. It would be hard to call it a Fritz afterwards.

Designing a crossover for a speaker is challenging because you really have to measure in box.

What are the goals for the sound of the speaker?

Fritz told me casually he can make bigger speakers, but they’ll be “kind of heavy”.          I believe he wires the crossover in series. As I’ve previously mentioned, I don’t know that much technically. I do recall as a child many years ago, that our Christmas tree lights were wired in series. It was rather tedious and sometimes very time-consuming to find the burned out bulb(s)

A bigger speaker is heavier? Say it ain't so :rofl:

The series crossover works like poop beyond a 2 way. But that doesn't mean he couldn't built a big MTM two way with bigger drivers. Maybe I'll ask him about that... if he's experimented with compression drivers and such.

Offline dBe

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 269
Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #83 on: December 09, 2019, 11:25:30 AM »
A bigger speaker is heavier? Say it ain't so :rofl:

The series crossover works like poop beyond a 2 way. But that doesn't mean he couldn't built a big MTM two way with bigger drivers. Maybe I'll ask him about that... if he's experimented with compression drivers and such.

Ray Kimber experimented with the DiAural Crossover (series) and IIRC he did some experimentation with a compression driver and cone LF speaker. 

https://www.stereophile.com/news/10416/index.html

An excerpt:

"Just inside the plant's wide industrial door was a pair of large three-way professional horn loudspeakers, of a type that might grace the rafters at any arena rock show. Eric Alexander had also worked his magic on these, bypassing a disturbingly complex crossover network and ignoring the manufacturer's admonition to use the speakers only with the recommended processor. Instead, an old Technics SL-P1300 CD player was connected to an even older BGW power amp, which in turn was hooked up to the speakers through maybe 30' of 8TC cable. Kimber rolled open the door, popped a disc in the player, and motioned for me to go outside.

We walked away from the building about 50 yards and turned around to hear Jethro Tull's Thick as a Brick with more clarity and fidelity than I have ever heard. The midrange was especially lucid, something that took me completely by surprise. Pro loudspeakers tend to sound raspy, nasty, and congested, but these were clean and clear as the Utah air. It was exactly the sound audiophiles wish for when they attend large concerts, and it demonstrated to me that it is entirely possible to move vast quantities of air without sacrificing sound quality. Kimber even turned it up loud enough to bounce the sound off a building 100 yards away, and the echo was also startlingly clear. So was the reflection off the inside of the door when he closed it."

Compression drivers are a perfect choice for a HF application in series crossovers due to their tremendous efficiency when compared to the LF driver often being 6-10dB more sensitive.  This headstart on power dissipation makes a well designed 2-way compression driver/cone driver series application much more appealing.  Using well heatsinked wirewound low TCR resistors like the 50W Ohmites opens up a world of options.

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Ohmite/850F10RE?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvNd0dY0Kymzuw5pXeikcVFPra%252BA1kKclE%3D

I have a huge collection of crossover information that Ray sent to me back around 2000-ish It covers the history of crossover design. patents and the like.  Isent him some copies of old Speakerlab research by Pat Snyder that covers all types of crossover designs including cascading the HF section in a 3-way from the midrange section instead of just parallel connection that increases LF rolloff of the HF driver at low frequencies by the order of the midrange section.  Brilliant!

tThere is a tremendous amount of info out there IF one takes the time to do the research. Ray Kimber is one of THOSE guys!   :thumb:
« Last Edit: December 09, 2019, 12:08:29 PM by dBe »

Offline Nick B

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2078
Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #84 on: December 09, 2019, 01:14:43 PM »
You can ask Fritz but his crossover style is incompatible with 3 ways. It would be hard to call it a Fritz afterwards.

Designing a crossover for a speaker is challenging because you really have to measure in box.

What are the goals for the sound of the speaker?

Fritz told me casually he can make bigger speakers, but they’ll be “kind of heavy”.          I believe he wires the crossover in series. As I’ve previously mentioned, I don’t know that much technically. I do recall as a child many years ago, that our Christmas tree lights were wired in series. It was rather tedious and sometimes very time-consuming to find the burned out bulb(s)

A bigger speaker is heavier? Say it ain't so :rofl:

The series crossover works like poop beyond a 2 way. But that doesn't mean he couldn't built a big MTM two way with bigger drivers. Maybe I'll ask him about that... if he's experimented with compression drivers and such.
Actually, it’s so  :lol: It was a bit of a what/if comment as I believe my current situation is not etched in stone
ICEpower 1200as2 amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
Fritz Carrera 7 BE speakers
Border Patrol SE dac
Auralic Aries Mini & Mojo Audio lps
Roon, Tidal & Qobuz
Don Sachs phono
Basis Ovation turntable
Graham 1.5 T tonearm
AT-ML150 cartridge
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline mresseguie

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 333
Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #85 on: December 09, 2019, 07:54:55 PM »
You can ask Fritz but his crossover style is incompatible with 3 ways. It would be hard to call it a Fritz afterwards.

Designing a crossover for a speaker is challenging because you really have to measure in box.

What are the goals for the sound of the speaker?

First: We arrived in Taiwan - tired, but safe. Jet lag will stomp us for the next few days.

Jeremy,

I know little to nothing about XO design, so my naive mind doesn't understand how adding a woofer could mess up Fritz's crossover. In my mind, it's as simple as limiting the midwoofer's lower range to 80 or 100Hz and rerouting the <100Hz signal to the new woofer. I'm not questioning your statement. I just don't understand how XOs are designed and what limitations exist.

It sounds as though it's far simpler to get a subwoofer or two; stuff a sock in the Carreras ports, and listen to my heart's content.

Daedalus Audio Apollos; Fritz Loudspeakers LS/5-R
SW1X DAC III STD
dB Audio Labs Tranquility SE DAC w/Jupiter Caps
Don Sachs Model 2
Don Sachs Kootenay 120 KT88; Nuprime ST-10
TWL loom
PI Audio UberBUSS, DigiBUSS, Uber-MiniBUSS
PI Audio USB cable
Mac Mini

Offline Jack

  • Seeking Help
  • **
  • Posts: 69
Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #86 on: December 09, 2019, 09:25:27 PM »
Michael

You won't need to stuff a sock in the ports unless you are going to place them too close to the wall.  But yes the Carrera's, twin subs and sturdy stands is simpler on the surface.  Fritz call me about a week ago and I was out so I need to call him back and will in the next couple of days.  I sent him an e-mail Saturday night about the turn this thread had taken and hoped he would join in but so far he hasn't.  When I call him I will ask him about both the passive and powered floor stander options.  He delivered another pair of Carrera's to Dev from AC on Sunday so maybe he will join the discussion at some point.
JVC QL-Y7 w/ Denon DL-301 Mk II
Vista Phono II
Nuprime CDT-8
Supratek Chardonnay
Vision SET400
Aqua La Voce S3
Auralic Aries G1
Verity Audio Otello or Reynaud Abscissa Jubilee
(2) Rythmik F12SE
TWL PC's, USB
Audio Envy IC's, SC
PSA Stellar P3
Uberbuss

Offline dBe

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 269
Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #87 on: December 09, 2019, 10:19:07 PM »
quote author=mresseguie link=topic=7333.msg93995#msg93995 date=1575950095]
You can ask Fritz but his crossover style is incompatible with 3 ways. It would be hard to call it a Fritz afterwards.

Designing a crossover for a speaker is challenging because you really have to measure in box.

What are the goals for the sound of the speaker?

First: We arrived in Taiwan - tired, but safe. Jet lag will stomp us for the next few days.

It sounds as though it's far simpler to get a subwoofer or two; stuff a sock in the Carreras ports, and listen to my heart's content.
[/quote]Rest up, Brother.  Jet lag is insidious and leads us to do bad things like buying bad audio gear on a dopey whim!  🤪

Adding powered subwoofers makes a lot more sense than screwing with the incredibly complex relationships present in 3 way series crossovers. There are no ways to adequately model them and it is easy to screw up and blow up otherwise good drivers while trying to optimize one.  I know:  been there, done that... twice.  Sucked blowing up ScanSpeak tweets!

If one is serious about trying to do this here is where one starts.  Good luck:

https://www.tubecad.com/2017/11/blog0403.htm





Offline Brap

  • Certifiable
  • ***
  • Posts: 211
Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #88 on: December 10, 2019, 09:24:50 AM »
Being a new member of the "Fritz Club", at this point I do not see a need for a sub.  Listening to string bass jazz pretty consistently, I am impressed with the low end of these.  Not the greatest room environment but these reach really low. Truly a satisfied buyer and highly recommended.  Running with a 35WPC ST-70
Fritz Carrera 7 Be
Transcendent OTL, VTA ST-70
Parasound Halo P5
Oppo 105
Rega RP3 - Ortofon Quintet Bronze
Cambridge CXN streamer
Teac 3340S
Anticables 3.1 and Blue Jeans

Offline Nick B

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2078
Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #89 on: December 10, 2019, 09:48:53 AM »
Being a new member of the "Fritz Club", at this point I do not see a need for a sub.  Listening to string bass jazz pretty consistently, I am impressed with the low end of these.  Not the greatest room environment but these reach really low. Truly a satisfied buyer and highly recommended.  Running with a 35WPC ST-70

Yes, welcome to the club! I certainly have enough bass for my current situation. That ST 70 is quite the vintage amp.
Nick
ICEpower 1200as2 amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
Fritz Carrera 7 BE speakers
Border Patrol SE dac
Auralic Aries Mini & Mojo Audio lps
Roon, Tidal & Qobuz
Don Sachs phono
Basis Ovation turntable
Graham 1.5 T tonearm
AT-ML150 cartridge
PI Audio UberBUSS