Author Topic: An Unusual Speaker Cable With Very Low in Inductance  (Read 1088 times)

Offline steve

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An Unusual Speaker Cable With Very Low in Inductance
« on: November 22, 2018, 10:23:45 PM »
An unusual speaker "cable" using parallel smaller wires, with minimum expensive.

My system sounded optimum using 10 parallel 18 gauge solid wires in each speaker "leg",
for five feet long. Your mileage will vary depending upon your amplifier output impedance (Z)
and speaker Z. I used door bell twin conductor wire (in a jacket) from ACE Hardware,
and only paid $.17/foot.

The inductance, resistance, and capacitance is extremely low. Nordost has designed
a similar cable except using flat conductors mounted on a plastic substrate. Cost is
much much higher if one wishes to use pure copper.

Caveat: The ten wires should not be tightly bundled touching each other, as the inductance will
increase. The other caveat is that the "+" and "-" speaker wires should be separated and inch or
two for minimum capacitance. (That is nearly always a good thing.)

cheers

steve
Steve Sammet (retired, owner, SAS Audio Labs)
"V" Very Low Capacitance Interconnects
SAS Audio Labs Test Phono Stage
SAS Audio 11A Tube Reference Preamplifier
SAS Audio Labs 25 W Triode Reference Monoblocks
2 way test Spkrs, 28 - 20khz  -3db (28hz)

Offline Nick B

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Re: An Unusual Speaker Cable With Very Low in Inductance
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2018, 09:07:07 AM »
An unusual speaker "cable" using parallel smaller wires, with minimum expensive.

My system sounded optimum using 10 parallel 18 gauge solid wires in each speaker "leg",
for five feet long. Your mileage will vary depending upon your amplifier output impedance (Z)
and speaker Z. I used door bell twin conductor wire (in a jacket) from ACE Hardware,
and only paid $.17/foot.

The inductance, resistance, and capacitance is extremely low. Nordost has designed
a similar cable except using flat conductors mounted on a plastic substrate. Cost is
much much higher if one wishes to use pure copper.

Caveat: The ten wires should not be tightly bundled touching each other, as the inductance will
increase. The other caveat is that the "+" and "-" speaker wires should be separated and inch or
two for minimum capacitance. (That is nearly always a good thing.)

cheers

steve

Steve,
Are you using the same wire on your new ics?
Nick
ICEpower 1200as2 stereo amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
KEF LS 50 speakers
Border Patrol SE dac
Auralic Aries Mini
Roon & Tidal
Don Sachs phono
Basis Ovation turntable
Graham 1.5 T tonearm
AT-ML150 cartridge
PI Audio Uber
All cables by Gary A

Offline steve

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Re: An Unusual Speaker Cable With Very Low in Inductance
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2018, 01:01:34 PM »
An unusual speaker "cable" using parallel smaller wires, with minimum expensive.

My system sounded optimum using 10 parallel 18 gauge solid wires in each speaker "leg",
for five feet long. Your mileage will vary depending upon your amplifier output impedance (Z)
and speaker Z. I used door bell twin conductor wire (in a jacket) from ACE Hardware,
and only paid $.17/foot.

The inductance, resistance, and capacitance is extremely low. Nordost has designed
a similar cable except using flat conductors mounted on a plastic substrate. Cost is
much much higher if one wishes to use pure copper.

Caveat: The ten wires should not be tightly bundled touching each other, as the inductance will
increase. The other caveat is that the "+" and "-" speaker wires should be separated and inch or
two for minimum capacitance. (That is nearly always a good thing.)

cheers

steve

Steve,
Are you using the same wire on your new ics?
Nick

The ic wires are 6N pure copper and stranded. The test speaker wires are just typical
solid doorbell wire from ACE hardware. Completely different wires.

cheers

steve
Steve Sammet (retired, owner, SAS Audio Labs)
"V" Very Low Capacitance Interconnects
SAS Audio Labs Test Phono Stage
SAS Audio 11A Tube Reference Preamplifier
SAS Audio Labs 25 W Triode Reference Monoblocks
2 way test Spkrs, 28 - 20khz  -3db (28hz)

Offline Nick B

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Re: An Unusual Speaker Cable With Very Low in Inductance
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2018, 01:11:20 PM »
An unusual speaker "cable" using parallel smaller wires, with minimum expensive.

My system sounded optimum using 10 parallel 18 gauge solid wires in each speaker "leg",
for five feet long. Your mileage will vary depending upon your amplifier output impedance (Z)
and speaker Z. I used door bell twin conductor wire (in a jacket) from ACE Hardware,
and only paid $.17/foot.

The inductance, resistance, and capacitance is extremely low. Nordost has designed
a similar cable except using flat conductors mounted on a plastic substrate. Cost is
much much higher if one wishes to use pure copper.

Caveat: The ten wires should not be tightly bundled touching each other, as the inductance will
increase. The other caveat is that the "+" and "-" speaker wires should be separated and inch or
two for minimum capacitance. (That is nearly always a good thing.)

cheers

steve

Steve,
Are you using the same wire on your new ics?
Nick

The ic wires are 6N pure copper and stranded. The test speaker wires are just typical
solid doorbell wire from ACE hardware. Completely different wires.

cheers

steve

Steve,
Just wondering....so does that mean that the purity of the copper wire is much more critical for ics (and maybe digital cables) rather than speaker cables?
Thanks,
Nick
ICEpower 1200as2 stereo amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
KEF LS 50 speakers
Border Patrol SE dac
Auralic Aries Mini
Roon & Tidal
Don Sachs phono
Basis Ovation turntable
Graham 1.5 T tonearm
AT-ML150 cartridge
PI Audio Uber
All cables by Gary A

Offline steve

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Re: An Unusual Speaker Cable With Very Low in Inductance
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2019, 12:38:00 PM »
I am going to change my stance on the speaker wires Nick. I have been tweaking my Modi 2, and the latest
was replacing the stock audio output jacks with Vampire all copper jacks. What an improvement, amazing. I
did not notice this much improvement with the modified NAD 521 (bypassed the analog chip with gain of 6db
and added pair of Vampire all copper jacks). We are dealing with approx 1 vrms in both components.

I would like to change my generic wires with 6N solid copper wires sometime. Pretty expensive though
and my car is ailing big time, so later. 

Cheers
steve
Steve Sammet (retired, owner, SAS Audio Labs)
"V" Very Low Capacitance Interconnects
SAS Audio Labs Test Phono Stage
SAS Audio 11A Tube Reference Preamplifier
SAS Audio Labs 25 W Triode Reference Monoblocks
2 way test Spkrs, 28 - 20khz  -3db (28hz)

Offline Nick B

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Re: An Unusual Speaker Cable With Very Low in Inductance
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2019, 06:30:37 PM »
Steve,
Its great that youre testing changes on your speaker wire. Thanks for the info
Nick
ICEpower 1200as2 stereo amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
KEF LS 50 speakers
Border Patrol SE dac
Auralic Aries Mini
Roon & Tidal
Don Sachs phono
Basis Ovation turntable
Graham 1.5 T tonearm
AT-ML150 cartridge
PI Audio Uber
All cables by Gary A

Offline rollo

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Re: An Unusual Speaker Cable With Very Low in Inductance
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2019, 10:11:46 AM »
  What I am getting out of this is cabling that is well engineered for one system may not be the same in another system. Another thing is that engineering of such is not a simple matter.
  So my question is how much does speaker Z and Amp Z differences affect cable design ? Does one size from Manf's fit all ? This may be the so called synergy one hears with a cable design???

charles
contact me  at rollo14@verizon.net or visit us on Facebook
Lamm - Aqua Acoustic Formula & La Scala DAC- INNUOS  - Rethm Speakers - PI Audio Uberbuss - Triode Wire Labs- Kuzma - Furutech - Audio Hungry Qualiton - Fritz Carrera speakers -Gigawatt-Arion

Offline steve

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Re: An Unusual Speaker Cable With Very Low in Inductance
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2019, 11:53:47 AM »
  What I am getting out of this is cabling that is well engineered for one system may not be the same in another system. Another thing is that engineering of such is not a simple matter.
  So my question is how much does speaker Z and Amp Z differences affect cable design ? Does one size from Manf's fit all ? This may be the so called synergy one hears with a cable design???

charles

First, Nick, I should have not posted #4, I don't know why I did. Would you delete it?

Good question Charles. From my testing, you are correct. Differing amplifier output Z and speaker Z
will affect what gauge speaker wire is optimum. I just recently did a multiple tweak on the speaker,
and optimum speaker wires in parallel is now 12 instead of 10. I am doing a see saw of speaker
control adjustment, crossover, and speaker placement, and adjusting the number of parallel wires.

Correct again Charles; engineering is not a simple matter even for wires. As one's system gets better,
any adjustment, substitution etc becomes more critical. One size cable does not fit all for the following
reasons.

1) The tweeter's quality varies so much, at least some are bright, that a lesser number of parallel
wires will bring down the brightness due to increased inductance. This inductance will have less affect
as the frequency lowers. I know, kind of a tone control.

2) With point 1 stated, all drivers will still be affected to some degree by the cable resistance and inductance.
Of course, the bass damping will be affected by the total gauge of wire.

3) As you already know, there are many combinations of drivers used in speakers. As such, different speaker wires will be optimum for each combination.

The end result is a closer to natural reproduction we seem to enjoy. Of course personal preference rules.
I hope I have covered the bases you were concerned effectively.

Cheers
steve
Steve Sammet (retired, owner, SAS Audio Labs)
"V" Very Low Capacitance Interconnects
SAS Audio Labs Test Phono Stage
SAS Audio 11A Tube Reference Preamplifier
SAS Audio Labs 25 W Triode Reference Monoblocks
2 way test Spkrs, 28 - 20khz  -3db (28hz)

Offline Nick B

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Re: An Unusual Speaker Cable With Very Low in Inductance
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2019, 03:55:03 PM »
Steve, post #4 deleted per your request
Nick
ICEpower 1200as2 stereo amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
KEF LS 50 speakers
Border Patrol SE dac
Auralic Aries Mini
Roon & Tidal
Don Sachs phono
Basis Ovation turntable
Graham 1.5 T tonearm
AT-ML150 cartridge
PI Audio Uber
All cables by Gary A

Offline tmazz

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Re: An Unusual Speaker Cable With Very Low in Inductance
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2019, 05:02:36 PM »
  What I am getting out of this is cabling that is well engineered for one system may not be the same in another system. Another thing is that engineering of such is not a simple matter.
  So my question is how much does speaker Z and Amp Z differences affect cable design ? Does one size from Manf's fit all ? This may be the so called synergy one hears with a cable design???

charles

First, Nick, I should have not posted #4, I don't know why I did. Would you delete it?

Good question Charles. From my testing, you are correct. Differing amplifier output Z and speaker Z
will affect what gauge speaker wire is optimum. I just recently did a multiple tweak on the speaker,
and optimum speaker wires in parallel is now 12 instead of 10. I am doing a see saw of speaker
control adjustment, crossover, and speaker placement, and adjusting the number of parallel wires.

Correct again Charles; engineering is not a simple matter even for wires. As one's system gets better,
any adjustment, substitution etc becomes more critical. One size cable does not fit all for the following
reasons.

1) The tweeter's quality varies so much, at least some are bright, that a lesser number of parallel
wires will bring down the brightness due to increased inductance. This inductance will have less affect
as the frequency lowers. I know, kind of a tone control.

2) With point 1 stated, all drivers will still be affected to some degree by the cable resistance and inductance.
Of course, the bass damping will be affected by the total gauge of wire.

3) As you already know, there are many combinations of drivers used in speakers. As such, different speaker wires will be optimum for each combination.

The end result is a closer to natural reproduction we seem to enjoy. Of course personal preference rules.
I hope I have covered the bases you were concerned effectively.

Cheers
steve

Hence the reason there is so much difference in opinion on what is "the best" cable. Perhaps it is just that while there are many good cables out there certain cables just match up better with certain eqipment, thus resulting in all of the differing opinions.

I certainly have first hand experience with getting a cable that sounded great in my system only to excitingly bringing it to a friends where it not only did not sound as good as it did at my house, but actually sounded bad. (and the sounded great again when I brought it back home.)
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Offline P.I.

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Re: An Unusual Speaker Cable With Very Low in Inductance
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2019, 10:30:39 PM »
Years ago, John Bau (Spica Speakers) master of much, determined that ribbon cable (40 conductor) x 2 was the deal for loudspeaker cables.

Now, we know that there are many cable lays that work. We also have learned that PVC insulation blows.  What else makes a BAD cable?  Inquiring minds..........
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline rollo

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Re: An Unusual Speaker Cable With Very Low in Inductance
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2019, 08:53:22 AM »
  Thorough answers as always. Always learn from you. Thanks. There is NO "best" just what is best for ones set up.




charles
contact me  at rollo14@verizon.net or visit us on Facebook
Lamm - Aqua Acoustic Formula & La Scala DAC- INNUOS  - Rethm Speakers - PI Audio Uberbuss - Triode Wire Labs- Kuzma - Furutech - Audio Hungry Qualiton - Fritz Carrera speakers -Gigawatt-Arion

Offline steve

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Re: An Unusual Speaker Cable With Very Low in Inductance
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2019, 09:48:17 AM »
  What I am getting out of this is cabling that is well engineered for one system may not be the same in another system. Another thing is that engineering of such is not a simple matter.
  So my question is how much does speaker Z and Amp Z differences affect cable design ? Does one size from Manf's fit all ? This may be the so called synergy one hears with a cable design???

charles

First, Nick, I should have not posted #4, I don't know why I did. Would you delete it?

Good question Charles. From my testing, you are correct. Differing amplifier output Z and speaker Z
will affect what gauge speaker wire is optimum. I just recently did a multiple tweak on the speaker,
and optimum speaker wires in parallel is now 12 instead of 10. I am doing a see saw of speaker
control adjustment, crossover, and speaker placement, and adjusting the number of parallel wires.

Correct again Charles; engineering is not a simple matter even for wires. As one's system gets better,
any adjustment, substitution etc becomes more critical. One size cable does not fit all for the following
reasons.

1) The tweeter's quality varies so much, at least some are bright, that a lesser number of parallel
wires will bring down the brightness due to increased inductance. This inductance will have less affect
as the frequency lowers. I know, kind of a tone control.

2) With point 1 stated, all drivers will still be affected to some degree by the cable resistance and inductance.
Of course, the bass damping will be affected by the total gauge of wire.

3) As you already know, there are many combinations of drivers used in speakers. As such, different speaker wires will be optimum for each combination.

The end result is a closer to natural reproduction we seem to enjoy. Of course personal preference rules.
I hope I have covered the bases you were concerned effectively.

Cheers
steve

Hence the reason there is so much difference in opinion on what is "the best" cable. Perhaps it is just that while there are many good cables out there certain cables just match up better with certain eqipment, thus resulting in all of the differing opinions.

I certainly have first hand experience with getting a cable that sounded great in my system only to excitingly bringing it to a friends where it not only did not sound as good as it did at my house, but actually sounded bad. (and the sounded great again when I brought it back home.)

From my experiments, experience, you are right on the money T. I hope your friend understands
and appreciates your knowledge.

cheers
steve
« Last Edit: July 21, 2019, 09:50:56 AM by steve »
Steve Sammet (retired, owner, SAS Audio Labs)
"V" Very Low Capacitance Interconnects
SAS Audio Labs Test Phono Stage
SAS Audio 11A Tube Reference Preamplifier
SAS Audio Labs 25 W Triode Reference Monoblocks
2 way test Spkrs, 28 - 20khz  -3db (28hz)

Offline rollo

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Re: An Unusual Speaker Cable With Very Low in Inductance
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2019, 07:00:03 AM »
  OK then what would one need spec wise to design a speaker cable for a said system. Meaning Amp and speaker. I am very pleased with two Manufactured cables we use however would like to hear a dedicated design for my amp/speaker combo.
Can that be accomplished ?

charles
contact me  at rollo14@verizon.net or visit us on Facebook
Lamm - Aqua Acoustic Formula & La Scala DAC- INNUOS  - Rethm Speakers - PI Audio Uberbuss - Triode Wire Labs- Kuzma - Furutech - Audio Hungry Qualiton - Fritz Carrera speakers -Gigawatt-Arion

Offline steve

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Re: An Unusual Speaker Cable With Very Low in Inductance
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2019, 08:39:33 AM »
  OK then what would one need spec wise to design a speaker cable for a said system. Meaning Amp and speaker. I am very pleased with two Manufactured cables we use however would like to hear a dedicated design for my amp/speaker combo.
Can that be accomplished ?

charles

From my experience, Charles, trial and error is the only way. Just too many variables to deal with.
Amp output impedance (Z), cable resistance/inductance, and speaker impedance characteristics
(includes each driver's Z characteristics and crossovers) all affect final sonic results.

For instance, what cable might be best for the woofer might not be best for the midrange/tweeter
driver. Just the opposite is also true. Crossover values and speaker positioning included.

Working with my test speaker, I found, for me, that the best cable characteristics for the midrange/highs
was not best for the woofer. So I then adjusted the damping for the woofer using switch
positions (resistors). I went back and forth until I optimized for all the drivers. I also adjusted the
crossover parts values.

Cheers
steve
Steve Sammet (retired, owner, SAS Audio Labs)
"V" Very Low Capacitance Interconnects
SAS Audio Labs Test Phono Stage
SAS Audio 11A Tube Reference Preamplifier
SAS Audio Labs 25 W Triode Reference Monoblocks
2 way test Spkrs, 28 - 20khz  -3db (28hz)