Author Topic: Longer IC or Speaker Cables  (Read 9675 times)

Offline rollo

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Re: Longer IC or Speaker Cables
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2017, 11:42:57 AM »
  How about we keep this short. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


charles
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Offline steve

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Re: Longer IC or Speaker Cables
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2017, 01:53:33 PM »
You can look at the numbers and theory all you want but in the end you just have to try it and see what works best or as Tom says, you may have other constraints that drive your decision. I used to stress the small stuff, now I am in enjoyment mode. Hey, if it doesn't work one way, just change it.

I stated that in my last post, and agree. I can understand your position Jim, since real science has been manipulated and deceptively used for so long by marketers/shills. Frankly I am frustrated, probably even more than you.

But this is not just theory, but factual frequency sensitive losses that occur in speaker wire. And it is not minor in nature. What would one think if their amplifier was down -1db or more at 20khz? That is several tenths of a db at just 5khz. What a piece of junk, right.

I just want the public to understand so they can consider their options. Just in this string we read about some EE who claims he has  "proof" recommending short ICs and long speaker wires is best, and that up to 25 foot lengths mean nothing. Sounds to me that the EE means all situations.

What a joke. One is losing around 1/3rd of the musical signal at 20khz, 1/6th at 10khz etc. depending upon the speaker impedance at those frequencies. Multiple wires in parallel cut that loss way way down.

I forgot about WAF, very important.

Cheers and no harm meant Jim.
Steve
« Last Edit: June 02, 2017, 02:02:41 PM by steve »
Steve Sammet (retired, owner, EE, SAS Audio Labs)
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Offline rollo

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Re: Longer IC or Speaker Cables
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2017, 07:08:46 AM »
Steve I must say very interesting facts. The question is can we actually hear those losses.
   In real life say I have 3ft. ICs and 8ft speaker cables how would I calculate any losses compared to the opposite lengths [ 8ft IC, 3FT IC]. Speaker impedance is [8] Ohms.
   Could this finding contribute to the "synergy" we perceive with different cables and lengths of such.


charles
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Offline steve

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Re: Longer IC or Speaker Cables
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2017, 11:20:29 PM »
Quote from: rollo link=topic=6094.msg79924#msg79924
Steve I must say very interesting facts. The question is can we actually hear those losses.

Maybe with a bright top end you can somewhat sneak around it. Or if the venue is poor acoustically, the sound is not going to be that good anyway, so it is less critical. But in a descent room, one is just kidding himself if one thinks he can obtain the best synergy from using components with such poor specs. Just does not work that way. (We do only what we can with our limited budget though.)

Quote
In real life say I have 3ft. ICs and 8ft speaker cables how would I calculate any losses compared to the opposite lengths [ 8ft IC, 3FT IC]. Speaker impedance is [8] Ohms.
  

I have been working with 10 strands of 18 gauge vs 8 strands of 18 gauge wire, 6 feet long. Pretty critical.

The ICs aren't going to make any difference, except the rare occasion that some sort of rfi or poorly designed component etc. It is the speaker wire that is going to make the most difference. 8 ohms does make things just a little bit better, but still.

To calculate, just take my previous example and substitute the lengths you posted, and vs 8 ohms. (5 ohms is the reference used in my last post, so we shall use that figure as a reference.)

For a single 11 gauge wire, 8' / 5' = 1.6. So 1.6 times .27 ohms  = .432 ohms reactance at 20khz.

For a single 11 gauge wire, 3' / 5' = 0.6. So 0.6 times .27 ohms
= .16 ohms reactance at 20khz. The difference between the two is 0.27 ohms reactance. Remember, that is for just one length of speaker wire. We have two wires per speaker, so the difference is twice, or .54 ohms reactance.

You can do the math for different gauges.

On an excellent system, that is easily perceived. For instance, in my system, I am adjusting a resistor across my full range driver by easily less than 1 part in 180,000. That is, I am adjusting a 9,000 ohm resistor by easily less than .1 of an ohm. But then I am in the zone of extreme openness, and lack of masking, especially in the upper bass/lower midrange or so region.

SS amps, with their high damping factor, and maybe more importantly using huge filter caps often mask information in the upper bass/lower midrange or so region. That portion of the frequency spectrum is extremely critical when it comes to masking low level musical information. We want maximum openness.  

Cheers
Steve

ps. I will be gone for 1 1/2 weeks.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2017, 11:27:49 PM by steve »
Steve Sammet (retired, owner, EE, SAS Audio Labs)
"V" Very Low Capacitance ICs
SAS Audio Labs Test Phono Stage
SAS Audio 11A Tube Reference Preamplifier
SAS Audio Labs 25 W Triode Reference Monoblocks
2 way test Spkrs, 28 - 20khz  -3db (28hz)

Offline Scottdazzle

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Re: Longer IC or Speaker Cables
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2017, 12:59:35 PM »
You can look at the numbers and theory all you want but in the end you just have to try it and see what works best or as Tom says, you may have other constraints that drive your decision. I used to stress the small stuff, now I am in enjoyment mode. Hey, if it doesn't work one way, just change it.


+1 Jimbones. Following the death of my son, I'm refocusing my life on what's really important. Most of this audio nervosa is a complete waste of precious time.
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Offline richidoo

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Re: Longer IC or Speaker Cables
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2017, 01:18:45 PM »
+1 Jimbones. Following the death of my son, I'm refocusing my life on what's really important. Most of this audio nervosa is a complete waste of precious time.

+1 Scott.
Sorry to hear about your son.

Offline steve

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Re: Longer IC or Speaker Cables
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2017, 06:41:18 AM »
You can look at the numbers and theory all you want but in the end you just have to try it and see what works best or as Tom says, you may have other constraints that drive your decision. I used to stress the small stuff, now I am in enjoyment mode. Hey, if it doesn't work one way, just change it.


+1 Jimbones. Following the death of my son, I'm refocusing my life on what's really important. Most of this audio nervosa is a complete waste of precious time.

Thanks guys,

I have a few minutes before I leave and saw the quoted post/comment.

Thanks for the lecture. First, you have no idea of my life, and the fact I know what is really important in life.

I could not help but notice that you are a dealer who possesses and sells expensive components (one of those brands had at least one reviewer shilling against me on AC forums. You can ask Martin DeWulf, criminal defense attorney and editor of Bound for Sound, and Barry Thomas, retired Federal Investigator.)

Yet you lecture me for helping others by providing clearly obvious information that can help their systems.

Thanks for, in effect, ordering us not to improve our systems because you do not like it. And why are you not selling less expensive components with poorer specs? If does not make any difference?

Frankly, you are the last one I would ask for advice.

Steve Sammet
SAS Audio Labs (retired)
« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 07:09:42 AM by steve »
Steve Sammet (retired, owner, EE, SAS Audio Labs)
"V" Very Low Capacitance ICs
SAS Audio Labs Test Phono Stage
SAS Audio 11A Tube Reference Preamplifier
SAS Audio Labs 25 W Triode Reference Monoblocks
2 way test Spkrs, 28 - 20khz  -3db (28hz)

Offline Nick B

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Re: Longer IC or Speaker Cables
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2017, 08:14:55 AM »
I'm sorry to hear of the death of a family member, especially here with the AN family. I can only imagine the heartache involved. Some of us like Charles (and me) are dealing with spouses who are ill.
Like any other hobby, audio can help to ease that burden during times of trauma or stress or become unimportant.
 I don't know the history between members..and companies.... here and I'm not going to go there.
So let us keep this on topic please.
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Offline Triode Pete

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Re: Longer IC or Speaker Cables
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2017, 09:20:23 AM »
You can look at the numbers and theory all you want but in the end you just have to try it and see what works best or as Tom says, you may have other constraints that drive your decision. I used to stress the small stuff, now I am in enjoyment mode. Hey, if it doesn't work one way, just change it.




+1 Jimbones. Following the death of my son, I'm refocusing my life on what's really important. Most of this audio nervosa is a complete waste of precious time.

I'm so very sorry, Scott... I was not aware of your loss and I cannot comprehend feeling that loss being a parent.

Sincerest condolences & prayers to you & your family...

Pete
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Offline Scottdazzle

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Re: Longer IC or Speaker Cables
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2017, 01:07:50 PM »
Steve,

I can't tell if your comment was aimed at me. My comment was not aimed at you. I wasn't lecturing anybody - I don't do that. I was merely making the point that what I think is important has changed dramatically since Marc died. Also, I gave up the business and retired on 12/31/2016.

Scott
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Offline Scottdazzle

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Re: Longer IC or Speaker Cables
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2017, 01:10:07 PM »
Thank you all for the condolences. This has been the worst experience of our (my wife and mine) lives.
Viva Hifi in Vienna, VA
email: vivahifi@gmail.com
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Offline steve

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Re: Longer IC or Speaker Cables
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2017, 04:48:12 PM »
Steve,

I can't tell if your comment was aimed at me. My comment was not aimed at you. I wasn't lecturing anybody - I don't do that. I was merely making the point that what I think is important has changed dramatically since Marc died. Also, I gave up the business and retired on 12/31/2016.

Scott

I finally returned home and got the computer repaired. Thanks for changing your signature, while I was out of town, to include "retired" and delete manufacturers. Thanks for clearing things a little.

However, I do not understand how your, and even Jim's comment offers an answer to the OP's question. Both posts could easily be interpreted such as to undermine real science, and is more than minor.

And the more one understands real science, the more knowledgeable one is to make decisions. I think there is a continual problem with the public understanding the difference between real science, and those who use "their so called science" for marketing purposes. (And costs for both tests, as Jim mentions, may be more than one things.)

And will some be nervous to post? Just some concerns on how others might take it.  :)

I think we need this forum to grow, and post as much as possible.

Cheers
Steve
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 04:58:25 PM by steve »
Steve Sammet (retired, owner, EE, SAS Audio Labs)
"V" Very Low Capacitance ICs
SAS Audio Labs Test Phono Stage
SAS Audio 11A Tube Reference Preamplifier
SAS Audio Labs 25 W Triode Reference Monoblocks
2 way test Spkrs, 28 - 20khz  -3db (28hz)