AudioNervosa

Systemic Development => Digital Audio Devices => Topic started by: TrueAudio on July 17, 2020, 11:19:43 AM

Title: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: TrueAudio on July 17, 2020, 11:19:43 AM
This is google translated from French, so pardon the imperfect translations.  This is pretty incredible stuff here, and I just found out about it today:

07/05/2009 A.A.
Digital audio extraction, the first link in the Hi-Fi chain of the 21st century

At the very top, there is the SARD (Super Audio Ram Disk)

SARD is a process which allows to benefit from a Hi-Fi musicality superior to any audio system dependent on a more conventional music storage. However, the file read in SARD must be of the best possible quality. We know that any Hi-Fi system never has the quality of its weakest link. In the case of SARD the weak link could be the phonogram itself, i.e. the 16-bit 44.1kHz stereo music file. This music file must be extracted from a commercial CD, ripped, saved as a .wav file on your PC hard drive, and then processed. The first step is therefore to properly rip the file.

Just below, there is the CDAD (Compact Disc Audio Dither)

CDAD (a term of my invention, just like SARD) is an audio CDRom burned from a wav file initially processed for SARD. On a high-end HiFi system, with a quality CD player, we see that the CD thus reproduced is musically superior to the original when it is read by conventional laser. The only constraint is that the wav file must have been ripped from the original CD beforehand, either by the Pharos Power ripp or by the Ripper-burner Phi2 Audiophile. Only then, its own musical qualities are expressed at 110%. The engraving will be done with the same tool that was used for audio ripping.

An original and inexpensive DIY

How to make a Pharos Power ripp or a Phi2 Audiophile Ripper-burner is as important a step as the CD-SACD Phi Audiophile folder or more recently the Ramtek V folder and the SARD. The complete file is unfortunately far too heavy to appear here. Here are some extracts and some thumbnails ...
For all the details, descriptions and comments, see the CD or download the update.

The copy better than the original

Impossible a priori, tell me. And yet, as surprising as it may seem, the copy can be musically better than the original, and without affecting the nusical signal itself. Certain processes indeed influence the psychoacoustics of human hearing and reveal treasures of emotion hidden in CDs that were thought to be dull and boring. The brain always retains reluctance towards digital sound, which presents a discontinuity which does not exist in nature. If we give it back a more natural mode of perception that reminds it of the analog side of sounds, the brain quickly takes hold of it. He seizes the opportunity, and takes it with delight.

The quality of a rippage is understood

I am not talking about clicks, small noises or silences appearing during burning after a botched ripping or done on a very damaged CD. This technical aspect is solved on good recent materials and using new commercial CDs or handled with care. It's a minimum.
No, I'm talking about musical quality, sensations, emotion.
99% of the copied CDs sound worse than the original when played on a quality Hi-Fi system. Is it the fault of digital extraction? How to know?
Knowing whether the file has been extracted to the nearest bit 100% identical to that of the original audio CD is impossible, failing to be able to compare with the file of the master tape. Error analysis tools are simple indicators. Counting errors C2 is only an index which measures imperfections, approximations, but which does not predict musicality.


No standard meter

The particular music lover lacks a tool of comparison, of reference. Only those who navigate the music industry can listen to master files to compare with their commercial CDs. Wanting to evaluate what we have extracted with what others have extracted from the same CD is in no way a guarantee of accuracy (see service accurate ripp). Getting the same number will simply mean that others have done the same and got the same. Alas the law of the greatest number is not the guarantee of a perfect extraction especially if one is looking for something as difficult to measure as the notion of musicality.

The ear remains the sole judge

So I decided to trust my ear. The artists have a priori the desire to succeed in their musical performance, to record it well and to make a CD worthy of it. A good rippage will therefore be the one that will best account to my ears for this presupposed musicality. So I trust the intention and not the bit, the purpose and not the means to reach it. What matters is the music, not the similarity of binary codes. Failing to be scientific, this principle has at least the advantage of pleasing my artistic sense.
_____________________________________________________________________________
04/21/2011 by AA. .
The new Phi² audiophile slim CD-DVD burner was born

In hi-fi nothing is never frozen, acquired, engraved in marble

It only takes the failure of a single element that can neither be repaired nor found on the market to question a hi-fi system that we thought was accomplished, perfectly euphonized and completely satisfactory. Fortunately, the element in question does not penalize the past but it could greatly mortgage the future.

The king is dead, long live the king!

The Samsung SE-S224Q / EUBN external drive that I used for the audiophile Phi² Ripper dates from 2009 (see file 111-hypersinus-power-ripp), and in 2011, Samsung no longer manufactures it. Mine burned out in March 2011 due to a (supposed) problem with my external power supply. This type of highly integrated device with miniature surface components cannot be repaired. Rather than looking for an identical second-hand drive, I preferred to play the evolution of the hardware towards the external drives still available offered in all USB, autonomous powered by the USB cable, with very low power consumption and with mini mechanical, called "slim".

Little musical break

Even cheaper!

So I worked to adapt the Samsung slim drive ref. SE-S084, costing around € 60 - which I had already mentioned in the file 111-hypersinus-power-ripp. The goal is to reuse as much as possible the Phi² box of its predecessor. This external all USB external burner burns DVD +/- R in 8x, and CDs in 24x ... it is not very fast but this is the counterpart (and / or the pledge) of a very low consumption.

(http://api.guide.free.fr/blog/images/DSCF2891.jpg)

In these times when we are trying to save energy, here is the perfect opportunity to minimize the power consumption of the PC and the engraver-ripper. Icing on the cake, when you listen to music in your living room, you do not pollute the atmosphere with your large 4x4, and you enjoy life serenely, without stress ...

Multiple benefits

1) we will do without any mains supply and therefore inverter,
2) we will benefit from the CD blocking system with springs, much more precise in centering and more stabilizing of the rotating disc
3) the low current requirement by a small motor and even further IC integration make the addition of the capacitor ring unnecessary on the 5V
4) No device, Eeepc Asus and Samsung Recorder, will therefore be connected during the ripp neither to the 230V mains nor especially to the earth, even simply by means of the neutral.


The other side of the coin?

It remained to be seen whether these theoretical advantages were not paid for at a high price, that of the drop in musicality.

On February 8, 2011 on this same audiophile blog, I had said goodbye to you, thinking that I had definitely finished with audiophile hacks, it seems that it was premature ...

Mixed first listening tests

My first musical ripp tests (DAE) with the USB DVD-CD drive burner samsung SE-S084, in a context that was not very elaborate and little pushed when writing the file 111-hypersinus-power-ripp (see my comments to this subject at the end of the file), had not been conclusive but they hinted at some good prospects. I did not think then to push further, the future forced me with the irreparable failure of the Samsung SE-S224Q and that's good because I was not disappointed.

Still happy finds!

The audiophile slim Phi² ripper finally turns out to be a great musical success thanks to some discoveries which confirm that (almost) all PNI (unidentified disturbances, of electromagnetic, mechanical nature, and / or micro-interface discharges so dear to Pierre Johannet) are generated, transmitted or amplified during ripp mainly by the vibratory behavior of the system.

No electronic circuit or conventional low-pass filter can counter them and such a circuit often contributes to the opposite of what it is supposed to do, to increase them. The difficulty is therefore to succeed by different original means in transmuting these vibrations to a frequency close to infrared ... to have heat dissipation. It is important not to block them, which in digital audio causes even worse collateral damage musically. They must be channeled and dissipated gently.

Dissipate gently

It's easier said than done, and here are my solutions:

- 1 pendulum system with double weights is placed on the external cage (principle inaugurated on the previous Audiophile Phi²)
- 1 pendulum system with offset mass on a semi-flexible aluminum blade & copper / lead weight is now added internally
- 1 mixed box of bamboo charcoal / pure quartz sand is added internally to the drive -
- the drive plate and certain other parts are treated with carbon black
- 2 ferrite magnets are added on either side of the rotating CD
- 2 small pure copper sponges are inserted in the double shell at the drive



We do not change a team that has already won (except having to replace the player who is unfortunately dead)

The whole case therefore remains roughly that of the file 111-hypersinus-power-ripp, the environmental context of ripp also remains identical, with the exception of the external mains supply and the inverter which disappear, now useless.

http://api.guide.free.fr/blog/images/phi2slim.png

In the end an obvious musical success

The end result is amazing and totally convincing in 100% autonomous ripp, the Phi² audiophile slim ripper plugged in and powered by USB on the mini Eeepc 100% on its small batteries, placed on a mini Fakir mat:

- bass fishing, pulsation, rhythm, fine dynamics are there and do not depend, as I wrongly thought, on the crown of condos since it has disappeared.
- a large power supply or a large inverter is no longer used for ripp drive
- the sound has however lost all residue on the digital side, the distortion has further decreased, the desks are still gaining ventilation with better marked plans in depth
- the tuning fork seems lowered, with a low medium that is always more dense and rich, a treble which has lost all tinsel or scrapping. - the stamps are even richer, more detailed and I do not remember having heard any more dense, more provided other than live.

There is no photo on arrival

The difference on the same CDs ripped previously with the old audiophile Phi² ripper is obvious enough that there is not the slightest doubt about the qualitative gain.
Like what in audio you should never swear to anything and that the perfection that we believe has been achieved once and for all is always perfectible!

Open perspectives

With other discoveries made recently by P.D. who worked on the Totem (see glossary - accessory used in ripp as in reading),

it is likely that this version 1 of the Phi²slim engraver ripper will soon be followed by a version 2 or even always by version 1 but placed in a modified context .... To be continued.

Listen to test files

Audiophile music lovers who have access to the Audiophile Club will find there files treated wav sard demonstration which will allow them to appreciate with their own ears the different versions of ripp.

Not that crazy or delusional

In the 111-hypersinus-power-ripp folder, I wrote "Those who have not been used to my hacks for a long time may find this folder completely crazy and delusional ... to simply rip a CD ..." This 113-phi2slim file shows that we can greatly simplify the ripp system, reduce the cost, and have extraordinary musicality from our own audio CDs.

(http://api.guide.free.fr/blog/images/DSCF3012final.jpg)

A simple but precise operating mode

To maintain total insulation from the mains and the earth, the Phi² audiophile slim ripper should be connected to a laptop or a Netbook working only on its own batteries when ripping, without a wired connection with ADSL or an Ethernet network. . Turn on the Eeepc with the two USB cords of the ripper already connected, wait until Windows 7 finishes installing everything on the desktop .... launch Ripstation micro, the drawer of the Phi² audiophile slim opens ... put an audio CD on ripper, close the drawer. The software informs the tracks then the extraction begins. When the wav file is obtained, process it in SARD with Adobe Audition 3 (paid audio editor, but there is a trial version) and my scripts (**). Then read it in ramdisk with AIMP2 version 2.50 312 with minimalist audiophile skin (free player software). Ram optimizer audiophile version (free software) must be Looped in 350 mS ...

Taste without moderation! You tell me the news! The only drawback is that you will want to rip all your CD library again ... too bad ... or so much the better! I'm used to it.

NB. For the most demanding, as soon as Ripstation micro (free software) has downloaded the titles of the audio tracks, immediately cut the Wifi of the Eeepc by pressing the Fn + F2 keys. Do not re-activate the Wifi until after the ripp is complete. The difference with and without Wifi is obvious!  But yes !

Of course when listening in SARD ++ on a good living room hi-fi system, the PC's Wifi must be switched off, the ADSL box must be switched off, the mobile telephones must be switched off, the DECT telephones in the home must be switched off and removed from their base.

PS. Remember, the original PCM (wav) format of the audio CD does not support tags, neither does SARD ++, but it is a very small drawback compared to the gain in musicality. We easily get around the problem by making long, explicit file names.
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: TrueAudio on July 17, 2020, 11:42:44 AM
12/05/2011 by AA. .
Highly musical audiophile ripping, or how to optimize digital audio extraction

Magic !

This folder is a truly magical and essential follow-up to the 113-phi2slim.htm file. Why magic? Because the tools that are used here are not measurable with common instruments. On the other hand, listening, they are obvious, and even so much that we want to talk about magic if we do not know the scientific principles that explain them. We could just as easily speak of a miracle!
Like what the ear is the only instrument capable of appreciating true musicality.

The source above all

At best, a hi-fi system has only the quality of its weakest link. If this old adage remains true, it is nonetheless incomplete. Indeed, apart from the hi-fi system itself (which includes in its current meaning CD player, hard drive, Tuner, record player, preamp, amp, speakers), there exists a link which is not directly attached to it and which is decisive, however, is the source. Indeed CD player, hard disk, Tuner, record player, often called "sources" are not sources but source players.

In any Hi-Fi system, the quality of the source is paramount. More than any other link in the chain, the most sensitive and vulnerable is the source audio file, that of the phonogram.

The origin of the source

When I speak of phonogram, I mean the native file that gave birth to the audio CD or hybrid SACD. This studio master file directly from the sound recording has little to do with the poor musical signal that the audio CD is capable of playing back on a home CD player. However, there is this original phonogram on the audio CD. Unfortunately, he is extremely fragile, sensitive to the slightest contagion, like a bubble child devoid of natural antibodies, without self-defense.

It appears that the digital phonogram data extracted from the CD medium are extremely sensitive to external disturbing agents, interface micro-discharges, various electromagnetic radiation, mechanical vibrations, etc. as many troublemakers that I include under the general term PNI - Unidentified disturbances -

The audiophile slim Phi² engraver ripper

As such, the CD DVD Phi² audiophile slim ripper burner constitutes the element of the chain whose euphonization is to be refined with great care to obtain a phonogram almost identical to that of the sound recording.
The field of ripping, digital audio extraction (DAE in English) has always been neglected, because we mistakenly believed to have identified all the parameters. This blissful self-satisfaction was so firmly anchored in people's minds that the DAE remained frozen, untouched by any innovation that took into account what really mattered, namely musicality, far beyond the illusory "Bit perfect" or other "Accurate rip ".

3 essential factors

Extracting data from the audio signal depends on 3 things:

- extraction software,
- CDaudio drive player,
- and the environment in which this drive will work.
(assuming of course that the compact audio disc is new and correctly burned)


On the first point, I emphasize the significant differences that exist between the different extraction software. Use Ripstation micro or Ripstation micro DS or strictly AIMP2C (that of my favorite version 2.50 312), in extreme cases as a last choice we can use Exact Audio Copy (EAC) ... .all are free.

For the second point, the drive (a CD DVD burner) which will extract the data from the phonogram is equipped with a direct drive motor which spins the CD. This engine generates microvibrations and electromagnetic fields which have perverse effects. The most sophisticated separate drives used an indirect drive by rubber belt and played on mass, weight (like the CEC TL1 - 18 kg drive mechanics alone, without any D / A converter!). This filters mechanical vibrations well enough while keeping the motor away from the laser head. It was an extremely expensive luxury solution but which unfortunately remained limited to the quality of the standard even of the audio CD.

It is more elegant and more economical to reduce the power of the engine to the absolute minimum, to reduce vibrations and radiation. This is what the mini slim drive designed initially for laptops, and whose primary objective was energy saving and compactness. The electronic integration of these mini drives is pushed to the maximum, suddenly the path of data is reduced to a minimum which is an excellent thing.

The euphonized slim drive (see files 113 and 114) allows in my opinion a digital audio extraction almost incomparable by any other recorder even by putting 50 times more expensive.
Anyone who is a bit of a music lover will quickly realize the enormous musical breakthrough that this dossier allows, at a ridiculous cost! less than € 60 for the chosen Samsung drive ... (€ 58 at Auchan for example)

For the third point, that which concerns the environment in which the ripping takes place, let us give to Caesar what is to Caesar ...

At the origin of this file, there is a first major advance made by P.D. (audiophile handyman whose path we followed on blog n ° 2 - see TQWT) who worked to improve the Totem. P.D.'s brilliant idea was to reuse cardboard honeycomb packaging and garnish the alveoli with Guérande salt and then insert it into a Totem. His second discovery was (on my non-serious suggestion because it was never tested by me!) To treat the device with iodine tincture!
The third discovery of P.D. concerns another Totem, doped, adjustable, which he baptized "Eole" and whose effect on the musical level is also very beneficial.

It remained to find how to optimize everything according to my personal context which is different from his.

(http://api.guide.free.fr/blog/images/phislim-pni.png)

A musical blatant

improvement The ripps that PD had made with its two finds around the Totem were amazing, obviously much better in terms of naturalness, life, pep, musicality, emotion than what I had so far achieved to do better. Like what we must remain humble in audio.

This meant above all that the phonogram of the audio CD still had a lot of untapped, latent qualities!

Very easy and inexpensive DIY

File 114-totem- explains in detail how to make 4 hacks for a ridiculous cost price:

- a mini Sarco-salt iodine
- a Totem salt + iodine

Plus the variants which allow multiple combinations suitable for adapting to all local contexts, both in terms of ripping and reading in SARD ++ or playing compact disc in a conventional way with a living room CD player:

- a Sarco-salt iodine for classic CD player microphone (an adaptation made by PH)
- a Totem "Eole" (invented by PD)
Playing audio CDs also benefits!
The micro Sarco-salt iodine is placed on the flexible sheet which connects the mobile laser head to the printed circuit carrying the D / A converter of the CD player. This is doable on the SACD Phi Audiophile CD player, and probably easily doable on many classic salon CD players ... details and photos in update 114

Reconciling contradictory requirements

Several paths can lead to musical Nirvana.

A fine adjustment of the Totem 'Eole coupled with a mini Sarco-salt iodine makes it possible to obtain a ripp, therefore an audio source file, of an exceptional level of musicality which reconciles the extremes: hot and cold, soft and l sharp, fine dynamics and absolute dynamics, the smallest intentions or the most cataclysmic tuttis ... just like in live music in real concert. We can obtain the same result with a simple Totem salt iodine but at the cost of a delicate research work on the vibratory behavior of the support of the ripper. You can of course, if you are a very demanding music lover, combine the two.
[Salt iodine totem 127]

When the music breaks!

The musical contribution of this mini Sarco-salt to a specific location on the Phi² slim ripper gives the impression that a detonator was triggered which detonated the music. All the artists settle in their true place on the sound stage, in the flesh. A fresh air circulates between the desks which are distributed in a very differentiated way in width. In depth, the plans are distributed in a well-storied manner if the sound is good and we feel in the atmosphere a furious desire to play of each musician. When music springs up, it is imbued with this communicative power, this desire to make music and share it ... and it is a shimmer of timbres, colors, flavors, with a dynamic palette ranging from the smallest whisper to the grandest orchestral tutti ... All the senses are at the party ... it sparkles everywhere, what a treat!

A breath of life infusion

When we finally add the Totem Eole in the right place, it's as if we injected life, a surplus of humanity, an overdose of emotion in the music.
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: P.I. on July 17, 2020, 11:05:25 PM
Wow!  A lotto digest here.  I wish I knew what some of his descriptors actually meant.

I need to re-read and re-read to try to figure out what the translation obscures.

I do agree that it is relatively easy to get superior rips from CDs that are better than the original CD.
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: TrueAudio on July 18, 2020, 04:02:17 PM
Wow!  A lotto digest here.  I wish I knew what some of his descriptors actually meant.

I need to re-read and re-read to try to figure out what the translation obscures.

I do agree that it is relatively easy to get superior rips from CDs that are better than the original CD.
Hi Dave, yeah this guy is pretty interesting to be sure.  It's amazing how just when we thought we "had the bases covered" with our systems--there can be another dimension that is just sitting there waiting to be tapped into.  I'll post something now that is related to this, that I also just literally ran across within the last couple days.  There's so many things that are regarded as subjective, even though each of us, to ourselves, will swear by a thing, but tell it to someone else and they'll roll their eyes at you.

You know the green paint pen for the edge of CD's?  A lot of people will just laugh at something like that.  I used one along time ago, just because people said it made a difference.

One such person:  "But, audiofools, Joe Average, believe in the green marker CD pen, they believe in freezing Cds, and they wipe their Cd each time before playing in cd-player with a special cloth. I know such persons in real life."

Now there is actual measured proof that it does make a positive difference that can actually be measured.  This is an excellent example that shows us just how much we do not know about audio/material science, etc:

https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php?topic=73368.0

This is from 2009-07-14

Quote
After reading several DAE quality reports I decided to do one myself for my drive. However I ran into a few problems. C2extract.exe couldn´t find my drive - perhaps because it is an external USB drive. Also, the file reference.wav took almost an hour to produce and I had to do it with my older laptop. With the Desktop (P4 3.8 HT) it would have taken 10 hours (!).

So I sadly can´t provide info about c2 - sorry about that.

The process in detail:
- creating reference.wav with my laptop
- copying that file over network to the desktop PC
- burning with NERO with 8x speed onto a Fujifilm 52x CD-R
- ripping with EAC in burst mode
- EAC is allowed to reduce the speed during extraction
- every speed setting was tested (40x, 32x, 24x, 16x, 8x) - but in order to keep it compact I´ll only post the most interesting
- I repeated every rip for four times with every speed setting in order to rule out awkward things.
- the results you can see below are all coming from the 2nd rip.

Used drive: Samsung SE-S224Q external USB drive (similar to internal SH-S223Q)
Firmware: TS02

DAE Log:
Errors total        Num : 220452
Errors (Loudness)  Num :  6841 - Avg :  -69.8 dB(A)  -  Max :  -12.9 dB(A)
Error Muting        Num :  3888 - Avg :    3.4 Samples -  Max :    531 Samples
Skips              Num :      0 - Avg :    0.0 Samples -  Max :      0 Samples

Total Test Result      :  77.4 points (of 100.0 maximum)

DAE Log:
Errors total        Num : 121901
Errors (Loudness)  Num :  5582 - Avg :  -73.1 dB(A)  -  Max :  -25.0 dB(A)
Error Muting        Num :    791 - Avg :    2.1 Samples -  Max :    24 Samples
Skips              Num :      0 - Avg :    0.0 Samples -  Max :      0 Samples

Total Test Result      :  79.7 points (of 100.0 maximum)

DAE Log:
Errors total        Num : 93097
Errors (Loudness)  Num :  6789 - Avg :  -75.6 dB(A)  -  Max :  -33.1 dB(A)
Error Muting        Num :    392 - Avg :    1.7 Samples -  Max :      4 Samples
Skips              Num :      0 - Avg :    0.0 Samples -  Max :      0 Samples

Total Test Result      :  80.3 points (of 100.0 maximum)

I´d think that these results are pretty good for a drive. But I won´t draw conclusions too soon here because I doubt the reliability of the test. Since I did every rip with every speed four times I always had differences. I assume these differences are to be expected and they were admittedly small (around +/- 0.4 points difference at maximum) but since every one of us does create a slightly different CD the results could be worse or better, depending on the thickness of the black marker, the deepness of the scratches etc.

But now it gets interesting. As some of you may know I tend to live a bit on the funny side of the rainbow - I regularly paint the edges of my CD green. I did this first in 1993 and I do it still. Of course, I never did seek for an explanation, I just assumed the reasons for the sonical differences I encountered were just because of the common enemy of audiophiles: jitter. Over the years there were enough evidence to suggest that the infamous green marker does not have any benefit whatsoever and is utterly pointless.[

Now, let´s look at those results again. Circumstances for the tests are exactly as the ones above - only this time the same CD-R was treated with the green marker. Again I did four rips with every single speed setting and again the differences between those rips were around +/- 0.4 points. But the differences between no green marker / green marker were bigger all the time.

Quote
DAE Log:
Errors total        Num : 103987 (before 220452)
Errors (Loudness)  Num :  4186 - Avg :  -72.0 dB(A)  -  Max :  -18.2 dB(A)
Error Muting        Num :  1278 - Avg :    2.5 Samples -  Max :    111 Samples
Skips              Num :      0 - Avg :    0.0 Samples -  Max :      0 Samples

Total Test Result      :  79.3 points (of 100.0 maximum) (before: 77.4 points)

DAE Log:
Errors total        Num : 66927 (before 121901)
Errors (Loudness)  Num :  3391 - Avg :  -73.7 dB(A)  -  Max :  -23.4 dB(A)
Error Muting        Num :    479 - Avg :    2.6 Samples -  Max :    33 Samples
Skips              Num :      0 - Avg :    0.0 Samples -  Max :      0 Samples

Total Test Result      :  80.5 points (of 100.0 maximum) (before 79.7 points)

DAE Log:
Errors total        Num : 46076 (before 93097)
Errors (Loudness)  Num :  3765 - Avg :  -76.6 dB(A)  -  Max :  -35.1 dB(A)
Error Muting        Num :    247 - Avg :    1.7 Samples -  Max :      4 Samples
Skips              Num :      0 - Avg :    0.0 Samples -  Max :      0 Samples

Total Test Result      :  81.4 points (of 100.0 maximum) (before 80.3 points)

It appears that with the green marker the results are getting slightly better. I wasn´t particularly looking at the total test results. More interesting were the counts of total errors: with the green marker they are always half of what was counted before - with every speed. But I also won´t draw any conclusions here but these tests suggests that the error correction can interpolate better if the CD-R is treated with the green marker. So, what does the green marker do besides looking ugly on the CD or better said: what does it affect?

On a personal side note I might add that 77% to 82% error recovery capability are pretty good in my mind for a drive. Now I´m really confident that I can produce pristine rips, regardless if the CD is treated with green marker or not.
__________________________________________
Someone asked:

"How many times did you repeat the process?"

"Four times for every speed. I worked the speeds down from 40x - 8x and then started again. The green marker rips were done starting very late morning. All in all that makes... 40 rips."

__________________________________________
Interesting comment (after some other guy is being obnoxiously skeptical):

"I'm quite surprised! I always found it funny, when people did that. In my opinion the results are not necessarily insignificant.

Physically there is some sense. The light leaving the disk at the sides should be irrelevant, but the reflections inside the polycarbonate layer could add up to more than decreasing overall contrast somewhat by making the disc glow. Pits aren't perfectly flat so laser pulses can leak sideways, reflect at the disc's edge, and leak back into the photodiode at the currently read position.* These reflected sequences can be steeply edged and "ordered", because they are a function of the sequence just read between the present and the time the light needed to travel to the disc edge and back. Such a pattern could confuse the reading system much more than a mellow noise floor with a much higher average energy level.

But I'm just speculating, I don't have first hand data to illustrate this.

* It would be sufficient if this happened sometimes. Since light waves cancel each other out and add up light sound waves that would be possible."

Quote
Quite the sceptic, eh?

Here are the results for the same disc I used before, this time with the green marker removed. I´ll spare you the logs and the pictures. I hope the DAE quality log will suffice. If needed the other things can be posted also. Ah, before I forgot: This time I did only one rip for each speed since I see no point in doing this.


40x, green marker removed

Errors total        Num : 257383
Errors (Loudness)  Num :  8992 - Avg :  -71.0 dB(A)  -  Max :  -12.9 dB(A)
Error Muting        Num :  3400 - Avg :    2.7 Samples -  Max :    177 Samples
Skips              Num :      0 - Avg :    0.0 Samples -  Max :      0 Samples

Total Test Result      :  77.5 points (of 100.0 maximum)

24x, green marker removed

Errors total        Num : 203560
Errors (Loudness)  Num :  9214 - Avg :  -73.0 dB(A)  -  Max :  -21.2 dB(A)
Error Muting        Num :  1125 - Avg :    2.1 Samples -  Max :    51 Samples
Skips              Num :      0 - Avg :    0.0 Samples -  Max :      0 Samples

Total Test Result      :  78.8 points (of 100.0 maximum)


8x, green marker removed

Errors total        Num : 103196
Errors (Loudness)  Num :  5834 - Avg :  -74.4 dB(A)  -  Max :  -23.7 dB(A)
Error Muting        Num :    395 - Avg :    2.3 Samples -  Max :    37 Samples
Skips              Num :      0 - Avg :    0.0 Samples -  Max :      0 Samples

Total Test Result      :  80.2 points (of 100.0 maximum)

On the whole, not that much difference from the very first rips. But what did I expect then? Nothing else. I´ll do the rips with a second disc tomorrow. Now I´ll get some sleep.



"I for one never doubted that green marker around the edge of a CD could improve readability to some degree. Since the laser is red, any color that absorbs red could reduce the scattered light and increase the contrast.

On a project that I worked on many years ago we were designing hardware to read a barcode label applied to a glass surface. The labels were to be printed with very old inkjet technology so they could smear if they got wet. The solution was to apply a clear plastic window with an adhesive back over the label.

Unfortunately as soon as you applied the window, the barcode became completely unreadable, even though it appeared to be visually unchanged. The problem was that the barcode reader shone a light over a narrow area and the photo sensor looked at a wider region within this area. The adhesive from the window coated the fibers of the paper in such a way that the light spread horizontally instead of just being absorbed or reflected, so the signal to noise dropped too low. "

"This is far from scientific or anything, and it could even suffer from graynol's fact that the CD has become warmer, but without marker i tried ripping a problem track in dbpa which needed to rerip 14286 frames... after plastering the disc with a black marker it needed just 60 frames... I will definitely try this on my other problem discs! "



Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: Nick B on July 18, 2020, 06:55:01 PM
An interesting topic that I’ve read about some years ago, but was not nearly described in such detail. As Dave said...a lot of information to digest. I think I need a translation of the translation   :roll:
Yes, I recall the days of the green and black pens. There was also a tiny machined part that I superglued into place that narrowed the beam of the laser on my CD player.
As I stream way more than play my old ripped CDs, I likely won’t be reripping them. Thanks for posting.
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: doug s. on July 20, 2020, 04:48:39 PM
and i found that a well-recorded patricia barbour cd, when copied on a basic computer drive and then to a black cd, the black cd sounded better; go figure.  not hugely better, but enough to tell.  the vinyl still sounded better, tho, except that the cd's lowest bass was slightly tighter.  but, even on the cd, the bass was recorded fat.

doug s.
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: HAL on July 20, 2020, 04:52:57 PM
How does the CD sound if you just bit perfect rip the CD to WAV files and play them back with a USB DAC? 
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: doug s. on July 20, 2020, 04:55:57 PM
i haven't got a clue.

doug s.
How does the CD sound if you just bit perfect rip the CD to WAV files and play them back with a USB DAC?
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: P.I. on July 20, 2020, 10:01:07 PM
For the highest quality rip here is what I do. I’m still using DB Poweramp...

Cryo the CD (yes, it matters)
Demag the CD
Demag a black CD
Burn with error correction enabled
Demag it again
Copy to the SSD
Transfer to the archive drive

Yes, every step makes an audible difference.

The real interesting aspects are cryo and demagnetizing.

A few years ago I sent 2 CDs of Pink Floyd “Mission Bell” out to people for comparison.  Unfortunately the recipients beat the shit out of both discs.  It was amazing to me the lack of respect that was shown to the discs, the process and to me.  I paid for the whole process.  That’s that “other site” for you 😞. 

I would be willing to buy 2 CD’, do the treatment burn a black CDand send it out to the group IF people here agree to treat them with kid gloves so everyone can hear (or not) the differences in protocols.

Anyone interested?

If so, suggest a recording and I will do this thing again.  The store bought CDs will be labeled #1 and #2.  Only and one other person of my choosing will know which is which.

Well recorded small group instrumentals with good vocals are the best subjects.  It is the spaces between the notes and well recorded acoustic instruments that reveal the most.  Dynamic range is a must.  Squashed hard rock is not worthy here.

Wanna play?
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: TrueAudio on July 20, 2020, 11:10:48 PM
To reiterate part of what I quoted:

"- 1 pendulum system with double weights is placed on the external cage (principle inaugurated on the previous Audiophile Phi²)
- 1 pendulum system with offset mass on a semi-flexible aluminum blade & copper / lead weight is now added internally
- 1 mixed box of bamboo charcoal / pure quartz sand is added internally to the drive -
- the drive plate and certain other parts are treated with carbon black
- 2 ferrite magnets are added on either side of the rotating CD
- 2 small pure copper sponges are inserted in the double shell at the drive"

So, as you can see, this guy made a custom enclosure for his ripping drive, also utilizing different types of dampening materials.  Also, quartz? which I think would have some RFI absorbing ability--not sure what the bamboo charcoal does, nor the ferrite magnets around the rotating disc.  The copper sponges sounds to me like he made a faraday cage/shield around the drive inside the custom enclosure (there's so much crap in the air that this totally makes sense).  Sounds to me like this project was a labor of love to this guy, I wonder how long he experimented with this concept before he got a working prototype.  ALso notice that he made a battery power supply for this, so its not getting fed at all by the factory power supply (smps):  "a large power supply or a large inverter is no longer used for ripp drive

He's also privvy to the digital pollution from other devices, this guy is awake:

Of course when listening in SARD ++ on a good living room hi-fi system, the PC's Wifi must be switched off, the ADSL box must be switched off, the mobile telephones must be switched off, the DECT telephones in the home must be switched off and removed from their base.

I wonder how much he charges for one of these to be built, and if there's a way to get a hold of him and if he speaks English.  Of course, one could embark on trying to implement something like this yourself if you were so inclined.

This is so interesting to me because it is REALLY addressing the source, which could have unbelievable results if designed and build well.
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: Nick B on July 21, 2020, 12:01:39 AM
For the highest quality rip here is what I do. I’m still using DB Poweramp...

Cryo the CD (yes, it matters)
Demag the CD
Demag a black CD
Burn with error correction enabled
Demag it again
Copy to the SSD
Transfer to the archive drive

Yes, every step makes an audible difference.

The real interesting aspects are cryo and demagnetizing.

A few years ago I sent 2 CDs of Pink Floyd “Mission Bell” out to people for comparison.  Unfortunately the recipients beat the shit out of both discs.  It was amazing to me the lack of respect that was shown to the discs, the process and to me.  I paid for the whole process.  That’s that “other site” for you 😞. 

I would be willing to buy 2 CD’, do the treatment burn a black CDand send it out to the group IF people here agree to treat them with kid gloves so everyone can hear (or not) the differences in protocols.

Anyone interested?

If so, suggest a recording and I will do this thing again.  The store bought CDs will be labeled #1 and #2.  Only and one other person of my choosing will know which is which.

Well recorded small group instrumentals with good vocals are the best subjects.  It is the spaces between the notes and well recorded acoustic instruments that reveal the most.  Dynamic range is a must.  Squashed hard rock is not worthy here.

Wanna play?

Dave,
I’d be all over this, but don’t have a CD player 😢 I sure hope some guys take you up on your generous offer. As to that CD damage, I wonder if the disks incurred some damage during shipping. That happened twice to me on DVD orders.
Nick
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: Nick B on July 21, 2020, 12:02:58 AM
To reiterate part of what I quoted:

"- 1 pendulum system with double weights is placed on the external cage (principle inaugurated on the previous Audiophile Phi²)
- 1 pendulum system with offset mass on a semi-flexible aluminum blade & copper / lead weight is now added internally
- 1 mixed box of bamboo charcoal / pure quartz sand is added internally to the drive -
- the drive plate and certain other parts are treated with carbon black
- 2 ferrite magnets are added on either side of the rotating CD
- 2 small pure copper sponges are inserted in the double shell at the drive"

So, as you can see, this guy made a custom enclosure for his ripping drive, also utilizing different types of dampening materials.  Also, quartz? which I think would have some RFI absorbing ability--not sure what the bamboo charcoal does, nor the ferrite magnets around the rotating disc.  The copper sponges sounds to me like he made a faraday cage/shield around the drive inside the custom enclosure (there's so much crap in the air that this totally makes sense).  Sounds to me like this project was a labor of love to this guy, I wonder how long he experimented with this concept before he got a working prototype.  ALso notice that he made a battery power supply for this, so its not getting fed at all by the factory power supply (smps):  "a large power supply or a large inverter is no longer used for ripp drive

He's also privvy to the digital pollution from other devices, this guy is awake:

Of course when listening in SARD ++ on a good living room hi-fi system, the PC's Wifi must be switched off, the ADSL box must be switched off, the mobile telephones must be switched off, the DECT telephones in the home must be switched off and removed from their base.

I wonder how much he charges for one of these to be built, and if there's a way to get a hold of him and if he speaks English.  Of course, one could embark on trying to implement something like this yourself if you were so inclined.

This is so interesting to me because it is REALLY addressing the source, which could have unbelievable results if designed and build well.

Great information, TrueAudio  :thumb:
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: P.I. on July 21, 2020, 01:48:51 PM
For the highest quality rip here is what I do. I’m still using DB Poweramp...

Cryo the CD (yes, it matters)
Demag the CD
Demag a black CD
Burn with error correction enabled
Demag it again
Copy to the SSD
Transfer to the archive drive

Yes, every step makes an audible difference.

The real interesting aspects are cryo and demagnetizing.

A few years ago I sent 2 CDs of Pink Floyd “Mission Bell” out to people for comparison.  Unfortunately the recipients beat the shit out of both discs.  It was amazing to me the lack of respect that was shown to the discs, the process and to me.  I paid for the whole process.  That’s that “other site” for you 😞. 

I would be willing to buy 2 CD’, do the treatment burn a black CDand send it out to the group IF people here agree to treat them with kid gloves so everyone can hear (or not) the differences in protocols.

Anyone interested?

If so, suggest a recording and I will do this thing again.  The store bought CDs will be labeled #1 and #2.  Only and one other person of my choosing will know which is which.

Well recorded small group instrumentals with good vocals are the best subjects.  It is the spaces between the notes and well recorded acoustic instruments that reveal the most.  Dynamic range is a must.  Squashed hard rock is not worthy here.

Wanna play?

Dave,
I’d be all over this, but don’t have a CD player 😢 I sure hope some guys take you up on your generous offer. As to that CD damage, I wonder if the disks incurred some damage during shipping. That happened twice to me on DVD orders.
Nick
The damage was obvious handling damage.  They both looked like they were handled with sandpaper gloves.  Scratches, abrasions, smudges...  Peope not caring for other's property.

The CD thing is being supplanted by streaming, but CD's STILL sound better IME.
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: malloy on July 21, 2020, 06:31:46 PM
To reiterate part of what I quoted:

"- 1 pendulum system with double weights is placed on the external cage (principle inaugurated on the previous Audiophile Phi²)
- 1 pendulum system with offset mass on a semi-flexible aluminum blade & copper / lead weight is now added internally
- 1 mixed box of bamboo charcoal / pure quartz sand is added internally to the drive -
- the drive plate and certain other parts are treated with carbon black
- 2 ferrite magnets are added on either side of the rotating CD
- 2 small pure copper sponges are inserted in the double shell at the drive"

So, as you can see, this guy made a custom enclosure for his ripping drive, also utilizing different types of dampening materials.  Also, quartz? which I think would have some RFI absorbing ability--not sure what the bamboo charcoal does, nor the ferrite magnets around the rotating disc.  The copper sponges sounds to me like he made a faraday cage/shield around the drive inside the custom enclosure (there's so much crap in the air that this totally makes sense).  Sounds to me like this project was a labor of love to this guy, I wonder how long he experimented with this concept before he got a working prototype.  ALso notice that he made a battery power supply for this, so its not getting fed at all by the factory power supply (smps):  "a large power supply or a large inverter is no longer used for ripp drive

He's also privvy to the digital pollution from other devices, this guy is awake:

Of course when listening in SARD ++ on a good living room hi-fi system, the PC's Wifi must be switched off, the ADSL box must be switched off, the mobile telephones must be switched off, the DECT telephones in the home must be switched off and removed from their base.

I wonder how much he charges for one of these to be built, and if there's a way to get a hold of him and if he speaks English.  Of course, one could embark on trying to implement something like this yourself if you were so inclined.

This is so interesting to me because it is REALLY addressing the source, which could have unbelievable results if designed and build well.

This is exactly the stuff that makes people scoff at audiophiles AND exactly the stuff I've been looking for!!! :!: :!: I am assuming the kind of cd drive also makes a difference? I thought I read something somewhere about Plextor drives being very good?  I've been wanting to buy an external drive dedicated to ripping as I don't trust my PC's drive, but this is very thorough.

Dave's additional steps of cryo and demag should take it to another level.
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: dflee on July 21, 2020, 06:58:58 PM
Dave:
I'll spring for the cds since your doing a lot of dollar value work on this project.
Just let me know. We are talking regular cd right not mega buck ones.
I will suggest Blues Singer by Buddy Guy. Still blows me away when I hear it.

Nit
Not that Nit, The other Nit.
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: P.I. on July 21, 2020, 07:46:41 PM
Dave:
I'll spring for the cds since your doing a lot of dollar value work on this project.
Just let me know. We are talking regular cd right not mega buck ones.
I will suggest Blues Singer by Buddy Guy. Still blows me away when I hear it.

Nit
Not that Nit, The other Nit.
Don, you are on!  I’ll order the CDs tomorrow.  I want to make sure they come from the same production lot. 

All I ask is for the participants to treat them with love and handle them properly... by the edges.

Participants need to not exceed 5 days from time they get them until they send them to the next victim.

Sound good?

Start adding your name to the list and we’ll make it happen.   :thumb:
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: doug s. on July 21, 2020, 08:52:08 PM
i'm a bit confused here.  wouldn't you be able to recognize the difference between a store-bought cd and one burned on a black cd-r?

for a choice of music, i'd recommend these:

- skip, hop & wobble
jerry douglas, russ barenberg, edgar meyer

- talking timbuktu
ry cooder & ali farka touré

- pontiac
lyle lovett

- the coryells
larry, julian & murali coryell
(great chesky recording)

- cafe blue
patricia barber
(nice recording)

- burbon & rosewater
jerry douglas, edgar meyer & vishwa mohan bhatt
(nice water lily acoustics recording)

besides these all being fantastic albums, i am very familiar with them, which would be helpful to me.   :mrgreen:  (altho i have pontiac and cafe blue on vinyl only. and my "the coryells" disc is a burned copy.)  if i need to buy one of the above cd's to get it included, lemme know.

doug s.
If so, suggest a recording and I will do this thing again.  The store bought CDs will be labeled #1 and #2.  Only and one other person of my choosing will know which is which.
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: Nick B on July 21, 2020, 11:17:37 PM
To reiterate part of what I quoted:

"- 1 pendulum system with double weights is placed on the external cage (principle inaugurated on the previous Audiophile Phi²)
- 1 pendulum system with offset mass on a semi-flexible aluminum blade & copper / lead weight is now added internally
- 1 mixed box of bamboo charcoal / pure quartz sand is added internally to the drive -
- the drive plate and certain other parts are treated with carbon black
- 2 ferrite magnets are added on either side of the rotating CD
- 2 small pure copper sponges are inserted in the double shell at the drive"

So, as you can see, this guy made a custom enclosure for his ripping drive, also utilizing different types of dampening materials.  Also, quartz? which I think would have some RFI absorbing ability--not sure what the bamboo charcoal does, nor the ferrite magnets around the rotating disc.  The copper sponges sounds to me like he made a faraday cage/shield around the drive inside the custom enclosure (there's so much crap in the air that this totally makes sense).  Sounds to me like this project was a labor of love to this guy, I wonder how long he experimented with this concept before he got a working prototype.  ALso notice that he made a battery power supply for this, so its not getting fed at all by the factory power supply (smps):  "a large power supply or a large inverter is no longer used for ripp drive

He's also privvy to the digital pollution from other devices, this guy is awake:

Of course when listening in SARD ++ on a good living room hi-fi system, the PC's Wifi must be switched off, the ADSL box must be switched off, the mobile telephones must be switched off, the DECT telephones in the home must be switched off and removed from their base.

I wonder how much he charges for one of these to be built, and if there's a way to get a hold of him and if he speaks English.  Of course, one could embark on trying to implement something like this yourself if you were so inclined.

This is so interesting to me because it is REALLY addressing the source, which could have unbelievable results if designed and build well.

This is exactly the stuff that makes people scoff at audiophiles AND exactly the stuff I've been looking for!!! :!: :!: I am assuming the kind of cd drive also makes a difference? I thought I read something somewhere about Plextor drives being very good?  I've been wanting to buy an external drive dedicated to ripping as I don't trust my PC's drive, but this is very thorough.

Dave's additional steps of cryo and demag should take it to another level.

Ha...that’s why we call this place home, Paul. I had a Plextor drive at one time. Worked flawlessly. That was back in the Windows OS days...
I am thinking of picking up one of these
https://www.amazon.com/Apple-MD564LL-A-USB-SuperDrive/dp/B011K4XZQ0/ref=ice_ac_b_dpb?dchild=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMImODvzprg6gIVHz2tBh3FOwpuEAAYASAAEgJa8fD_BwE&hvadid=153657847429&hvdev=t&hvlocphy=9029965&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=1523329449314557044&hvtargid=kwd-34236776292&hydadcr=18032_9433277&keywords=apple+usb+superdrive&qid=1595398533&sr=8-3&tag=googhydr-20
I was also looking at this. It’s intriguing as I already have a dedicated power supply for my Auralic streamer. If so, I’d order thru Charles
https://www.tweekgeek.com/zen-mini-mk3/?sku=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgrD42Zvg6gIVQiCtBh2owwTVEAQYBCABEgIHovD_BwE
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: P.I. on July 22, 2020, 11:09:55 AM
i'm a bit confused here.  wouldn't you be able to recognize the difference between a store-bought cd and one burned on a black cd-r?

for a choice of music, i'd recommend these:

- skip, hop & wobble
jerry douglas, russ barenberg, edgar meyer

- talking timbuktu
ry cooder & ali farka touré

- pontiac
lyle lovett

- the coryells
larry, julian & murali coryell
(great chesky recording)

- cafe blue
patricia barber
(nice recording)

- burbon & rosewater
jerry douglas, edgar meyer & vishwa mohan bhatt
(nice water lily acoustics recording)

besides these all being fantastic albums, i am very familiar with them, which would be helpful to me.   :mrgreen:  (altho i have pontiac and cafe blue on vinyl only. and my "the coryells" disc is a burned copy.)  if i need to buy one of the above cd's to get it included, lemme know.

doug s.
If so, suggest a recording and I will do this thing again.  The store bought CDs will be labeled #1 and #2.  Only and one other person of my choosing will know which is which.
The best way to do this test is to have an assistant put the CD's in the player.  That way it is essentially a double blind test.  Obviously a black CD is black and a dead giveaway.

The test needs to have some superbly recorded vocals and acoustic instruments.  Also, to prevent confirmation bias it is best to listen to relatively unfamiliar music.  I really don't want this to devolve into data wars, so I'm going to choose the music.  Sorry, Dan.  Sorry Doug.

An extremely well recorded album is Marc Cohn's first release.  That is the one I have chosen for this gig.  No one needs to chip in on this beyond the postage to the next participant.

Here is the list so far:

Malloy
dflee
doug s.
Barry

If you want in on this gambit post here, PM me or send me an email.

I am choosing Nick as "the Control" for this.  I will tell him which disc is the one that has the 'special sauce' so he will be able to confirm the results.

The process for reporting your findings -  DO NOT post on the open forum what you hear and the order that you would rank the discs.  We want the observation pool to be unbiased by others findings.  PM me and let me know what you think.  I will tabulate the results and when this is all over I'll then post them.  It  will be interesting to see the outcome.

Once again: it is absolutely imperative to handle the discs with care.  Any surface damage will render the test moot and it will be a waste of the participant's time.

Fair enough?
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: rollo on July 22, 2020, 11:16:47 AM
  Is this not what a music server does. Rips to bit perfect then to a SSD like the Innuos Server.

charles
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: Nick B on July 22, 2020, 11:51:38 AM
i'm a bit confused here.  wouldn't you be able to recognize the difference between a store-bought cd and one burned on a black cd-r?

for a choice of music, i'd recommend these:

- skip, hop & wobble
jerry douglas, russ barenberg, edgar meyer

- talking timbuktu
ry cooder & ali farka touré

- pontiac
lyle lovett

- the coryells
larry, julian & murali coryell
(great chesky recording)

- cafe blue
patricia barber
(nice recording)

- burbon & rosewater
jerry douglas, edgar meyer & vishwa mohan bhatt
(nice water lily acoustics recording)

besides these all being fantastic albums, i am very familiar with them, which would be helpful to me.   :mrgreen:  (altho i have pontiac and cafe blue on vinyl only. and my "the coryells" disc is a burned copy.)  if i need to buy one of the above cd's to get it included, lemme know.

doug s.
If so, suggest a recording and I will do this thing again.  The store bought CDs will be labeled #1 and #2.  Only and one other person of my choosing will know which is which.
The best way to do this test is to have an assistant put the CD's in the player.  That way it is essentially a double blind test.  Obviously a black CD is black and a dead giveaway.

The test needs to have some superbly recorded vocals and acoustic instruments.  Also, to prevent confirmation bias it is best to listen to relatively unfamiliar music.  I really don't want this to devolve into data wars, so I'm going to choose the music.  Sorry, Dan.  Sorry Doug.

An extremely well recorded album is Marc Cohn's first release.  That is the one I have chosen for this gig.  No one needs to chip in on this beyond the postage to the next participant.

Here is the list so far:

Malloy
dflee
doug s.

If you want in on this gambit post here, PM me or send me an email.

I am choosing Nick as "the Control" for this.  I will tell him which disc is the one that has the 'special sauce' so he will be able to confirm the results.

The process for reporting your findings -  DO NOT post on the open forum what you hear and the order that you would rank the discs.  We want the observation pool to be unbiased by others findings.  PM me and let me know what you think.  I will tabulate the results and when this is all over I'll then post them.  It  will be interesting to see the outcome.

Once again: it is absolutely imperative to handle the discs with care.  Any surface damage will render the test moot and it will be a waste of the participant's time.

Fair enough?

Indeed  :thumb:
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: P.I. on July 22, 2020, 12:11:22 PM
  Is this not what a music server does. Rips to bit perfect then to a SSD like the Innuos Server.

charles
It should be that way.  In practice there are some subtle differences in SQ depending upon a variety of factors. These can include:

ripping software
the drive (HDD or SSD)
the drive enclosure (actually the drive controller)
is the cable interface USB (2 or 3), Firewire, Thunderbolt or whatever
the cabling itself
the phase of the moon...

It is like all audio situations:  Everything effects everything.
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: malloy on July 22, 2020, 06:21:29 PM

Ha...that’s why we call this place home, Paul. I had a Plextor drive at one time. Worked flawlessly. That was back in the Windows OS days...
I am thinking of picking up one of these
https://www.amazon.com/Apple-MD564LL-A-USB-SuperDrive/dp/B011K4XZQ0/ref=ice_ac_b_dpb?dchild=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMImODvzprg6gIVHz2tBh3FOwpuEAAYASAAEgJa8fD_BwE&hvadid=153657847429&hvdev=t&hvlocphy=9029965&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=1523329449314557044&hvtargid=kwd-34236776292&hydadcr=18032_9433277&keywords=apple+usb+superdrive&qid=1595398533&sr=8-3&tag=googhydr-20
I was also looking at this. It’s intriguing as I already have a dedicated power supply for my Auralic streamer. If so, I’d order thru Charles
https://www.tweekgeek.com/zen-mini-mk3/?sku=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgrD42Zvg6gIVQiCtBh2owwTVEAQYBCABEgIHovD_BwE

Hi Nick,

I was thinking of this: https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/hard-drives/External-Enclosures/Optical-DVD-CD-Bluray (https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/hard-drives/External-Enclosures/Optical-DVD-CD-Bluray)

That Innuos I've had my eye on for the longest time, but my wallet complained too much, being the cheapskate that I am.

I'll have to fix my cd player's transport door belt and get myself some decent interconnects. Once upon a time some 18 years ago, it was probably close to cutting edge, now it's just a large paperweight ever since the Sony streamer came in.

Paul



Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: Nick B on July 22, 2020, 06:42:52 PM

Ha...that’s why we call this place home, Paul. I had a Plextor drive at one time. Worked flawlessly. That was back in the Windows OS days...
I am thinking of picking up one of these
https://www.amazon.com/Apple-MD564LL-A-USB-SuperDrive/dp/B011K4XZQ0/ref=ice_ac_b_dpb?dchild=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMImODvzprg6gIVHz2tBh3FOwpuEAAYASAAEgJa8fD_BwE&hvadid=153657847429&hvdev=t&hvlocphy=9029965&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=1523329449314557044&hvtargid=kwd-34236776292&hydadcr=18032_9433277&keywords=apple+usb+superdrive&qid=1595398533&sr=8-3&tag=googhydr-20
I was also looking at this. It’s intriguing as I already have a dedicated power supply for my Auralic streamer. If so, I’d order thru Charles
https://www.tweekgeek.com/zen-mini-mk3/?sku=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgrD42Zvg6gIVQiCtBh2owwTVEAQYBCABEgIHovD_BwE

Hi Nick,

I was thinking of this: https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/hard-drives/External-Enclosures/Optical-DVD-CD-Bluray (https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/hard-drives/External-Enclosures/Optical-DVD-CD-Bluray)

That Innuos I've had my eye on for the longest time, but my wallet complained too much, being the cheapskate that I am.

I'll have to fix my cd player's transport door belt and get myself some decent interconnects. Once upon a time some 18 years ago, it was probably close to cutting edge, now it's just a large paperweight ever since the Sony streamer came in.

Paul

Good website, Paul. Hadn’t seen that one before. I may be getting some budget friendly interconnects soon. If so, you can basically have mine for shipping costs if you want. They are quite good, but unshielded.
Having a talking wallet and being a cheapskate are good audiophile virtues to have.
Nick
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: P.I. on July 22, 2020, 09:57:43 PM

Ha...that’s why we call this place home, Paul. I had a Plextor drive at one time. Worked flawlessly. That was back in the Windows OS days...
I am thinking of picking up one of these
https://www.amazon.com/Apple-MD564LL-A-USB-SuperDrive/dp/B011K4XZQ0/ref=ice_ac_b_dpb?dchild=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMImODvzprg6gIVHz2tBh3FOwpuEAAYASAAEgJa8fD_BwE&hvadid=153657847429&hvdev=t&hvlocphy=9029965&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=1523329449314557044&hvtargid=kwd-34236776292&hydadcr=18032_9433277&keywords=apple+usb+superdrive&qid=1595398533&sr=8-3&tag=googhydr-20
I was also looking at this. It’s intriguing as I already have a dedicated power supply for my Auralic streamer. If so, I’d order thru Charles
https://www.tweekgeek.com/zen-mini-mk3/?sku=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgrD42Zvg6gIVQiCtBh2owwTVEAQYBCABEgIHovD_BwE

Hi Nick,

I was thinking of this: https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/hard-drives/External-Enclosures/Optical-DVD-CD-Bluray (https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/hard-drives/External-Enclosures/Optical-DVD-CD-Bluray)

That Innuos I've had my eye on for the longest time, but my wallet complained too much, being the cheapskate that I am.

I'll have to fix my cd player's transport door belt and get myself some decent interconnects. Once upon a time some 18 years ago, it was probably close to cutting edge, now it's just a large paperweight ever since the Sony streamer came in.

Paul
The OWC Elite Pro is one of the best sounding drive enclosures available.  So says my digital guru Eric Hider.  He has listened to everything and the OWC is his choice due to the controller.  It does sound better than what I was using...
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: Barry (NJ) on July 23, 2020, 07:24:50 AM
The best way to do this test is to have an assistant put the CD's in the player.  That way it is essentially a double blind test.  Obviously a black CD is black and a dead giveaway.

The test needs to have some superbly recorded vocals and acoustic instruments.  Also, to prevent confirmation bias it is best to listen to relatively unfamiliar music.  I really don't want this to devolve into data wars, so I'm going to choose the music.  Sorry, Dan.  Sorry Doug.

An extremely well recorded album is Marc Cohn's first release.  That is the one I have chosen for this gig.  No one needs to chip in on this beyond the postage to the next participant.

Here is the list so far:

Malloy
dflee
doug s.

If you want in on this gambit post here, PM me or send me an email.

I am choosing Nick as "the Control" for this.  I will tell him which disc is the one that has the 'special sauce' so he will be able to confirm the results.

The process for reporting your findings -  DO NOT post on the open forum what you hear and the order that you would rank the discs.  We want the observation pool to be unbiased by others findings.  PM me and let me know what you think.  I will tabulate the results and when this is all over I'll then post them.  It  will be interesting to see the outcome.

Once again: it is absolutely imperative to handle the discs with care.  Any surface damage will render the test moot and it will be a waste of the participant's time.

Fair enough?


I'd like to join in on the fun!
Wouldn't mind the Pink Floyd disc you'd done in the earlier iteration of this experiment. I like Pink Floyd, but I'm not familiar with that recording.
But Marc Cohn is fine  ;)
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: P.I. on July 23, 2020, 11:23:16 AM
The best way to do this test is to have an assistant put the CD's in the player.  That way it is essentially a double blind test.  Obviously a black CD is black and a dead giveaway.

The test needs to have some superbly recorded vocals and acoustic instruments.  Also, to prevent confirmation bias it is best to listen to relatively unfamiliar music.  I really don't want this to devolve into data wars, so I'm going to choose the music.  Sorry, Dan.  Sorry Doug.

An extremely well recorded album is Marc Cohn's first release.  That is the one I have chosen for this gig.  No one needs to chip in on this beyond the postage to the next participant.

Here is the list so far:

Malloy
dflee
doug s.

If you want in on this gambit post here, PM me or send me an email.

I am choosing Nick as "the Control" for this.  I will tell him which disc is the one that has the 'special sauce' so he will be able to confirm the results.

The process for reporting your findings -  DO NOT post on the open forum what you hear and the order that you would rank the discs.  We want the observation pool to be unbiased by others findings.  PM me and let me know what you think.  I will tabulate the results and when this is all over I'll then post them.  It  will be interesting to see the outcome.

Once again: it is absolutely imperative to handle the discs with care.  Any surface damage will render the test moot and it will be a waste of the participant's time.

Fair enough?


I'd like to join in on the fun!
Wouldn't mind the Pink Floyd disc you'd done in the earlier iteration of this experiment. I like Pink Floyd, but I'm not familiar with that recording.
But Marc Cohn is fine  ;)
Thos discs were rendered unplayable by people that did not respect the property of other.

The Cohn discs are on their way here.

I'll add you to the list.  Thanks for playing!
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: doug s. on July 23, 2020, 12:04:10 PM
all my recommendations are fabulous recorded vocals and acoustic instruments.  and, imo, it's easier to discern any difference w/music you're familiar with.  be that as it may, i am fine w/you choosing whatever you wish.

so, i will need to get my boss to load the cd's, i think she'll do that for me.  ;)

doug s.
i'm a bit confused here.  wouldn't you be able to recognize the difference between a store-bought cd and one burned on a black cd-r?

for a choice of music, i'd recommend these:

- skip, hop & wobble
jerry douglas, russ barenberg, edgar meyer

- talking timbuktu
ry cooder & ali farka touré

- pontiac
lyle lovett

- the coryells
larry, julian & murali coryell
(great chesky recording)

- cafe blue
patricia barber
(nice recording)

- burbon & rosewater
jerry douglas, edgar meyer & vishwa mohan bhatt
(nice water lily acoustics recording)

besides these all being fantastic albums, i am very familiar with them, which would be helpful to me.   :mrgreen:  (altho i have pontiac and cafe blue on vinyl only. and my "the coryells" disc is a burned copy.)  if i need to buy one of the above cd's to get it included, lemme know.

doug s.
If so, suggest a recording and I will do this thing again.  The store bought CDs will be labeled #1 and #2.  Only and one other person of my choosing will know which is which.
The best way to do this test is to have an assistant put the CD's in the player.  That way it is essentially a double blind test.  Obviously a black CD is black and a dead giveaway.

The test needs to have some superbly recorded vocals and acoustic instruments.  Also, to prevent confirmation bias it is best to listen to relatively unfamiliar music.  I really don't want this to devolve into data wars, so I'm going to choose the music.  Sorry, Dan.  Sorry Doug.

An extremely well recorded album is Marc Cohn's first release.  That is the one I have chosen for this gig.  No one needs to chip in on this beyond the postage to the next participant.

Here is the list so far:

Malloy
dflee
doug s.
Barry

If you want in on this gambit post here, PM me or send me an email.

I am choosing Nick as "the Control" for this.  I will tell him which disc is the one that has the 'special sauce' so he will be able to confirm the results.

The process for reporting your findings -  DO NOT post on the open forum what you hear and the order that you would rank the discs.  We want the observation pool to be unbiased by others findings.  PM me and let me know what you think.  I will tabulate the results and when this is all over I'll then post them.  It  will be interesting to see the outcome.

Once again: it is absolutely imperative to handle the discs with care.  Any surface damage will render the test moot and it will be a waste of the participant's time.

Fair enough?
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: doug s. on July 23, 2020, 12:06:52 PM
especially critical is moon phase; no doubt.   :mrgreen:

doug s.
  Is this not what a music server does. Rips to bit perfect then to a SSD like the Innuos Server.

charles
It should be that way.  In practice there are some subtle differences in SQ depending upon a variety of factors. These can include:

ripping software
the drive (HDD or SSD)
the drive enclosure (actually the drive controller)
is the cable interface USB (2 or 3), Firewire, Thunderbolt or whatever
the cabling itself
the phase of the moon...

It is like all audio situations:  Everything effects everything.
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: Barry (NJ) on July 23, 2020, 01:21:45 PM
Those discs were rendered unplayable by people that did not respect the property of other.

The Cohn discs are on their way here.

I'll add you to the list.  Thanks for playing!

Pleasure and thanks for making it happen! And I was suggesting recreating the Pink Floyd discs for this go-round, but I hadn't noticed that Marc Cohn had already been chosen ;)
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: doug s. on July 23, 2020, 01:32:36 PM
you can take my name off the list.  i have just listened to the first 7 songs of the marc cohn album; no way i could sit and listen to this even once, let alone the twice or more, necessary to do a meaningful comparison.  just not my cuppa.

thanks anyway,

doug s.
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: malloy on July 23, 2020, 08:59:27 PM
]The OWC Elite Pro is one of the best sounding drive enclosures available.  So says my digital guru Eric Hider.  He has listened to everything and the OWC is his choice due to the controller.  It does sound better than what I was using...

Hi Dave,

Is the matching OWC optical drive ok as well? I keep hearing some Pioneer model (that doesn't fit the OWC) as being great as well. Or is the choice of optical drive not as critical as the controller of the enclosure?

Then there is the question of the power supply and usb connection to the drive, correct?

Paul
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: TrueAudio on July 23, 2020, 09:00:20 PM
  Is this not what a music server does. Rips to bit perfect then to a SSD like the Innuos Server.

charles
That's the entire point of this thread that I started:

"99% of the copied CDs sound worse than the original when played on a quality Hi-Fi system. Is it the fault of digital extraction? How to know? Knowing whether the file has been extracted to the nearest bit 100% identical to that of the original audio CD is impossible, failing to be able to compare with the file of the master tape. Error analysis tools are simple indicators. Counting errors C2 is only an index which measures imperfections, approximations, but which does not predict musicality."

"The particular music lover lacks a tool of comparison, of reference. Only those who navigate the music industry can listen to master files to compare with their commercial CDs. Wanting to evaluate what we have extracted with what others have extracted from the same CD is in no way a guarantee of accuracy (see service accurate ripp). Getting the same number will simply mean that others have done the same and got the same. Alas the law of the greatest number is not the guarantee of a perfect extraction especially if one is looking for something as difficult to measure as the notion of musicality."

The field of ripping, digital audio extraction (DAE in English) has always been neglected, because we mistakenly believed to have identified all the parameters. This blissful self-satisfaction was so firmly anchored in people's minds that the DAE remained frozen, untouched by any innovation that took into account what really mattered, namely musicality, far beyond the illusory "Bit perfect" or other "Accurate rip ".

He's saying that there's unmeasureable (by any test equipment/software analysis, but the ear can hear the improvements) analog components of the ripped WAV file that are part of every "bit perfect" rip.  Any website that specializes in computer DAE (i.e. hydrogenaudio) will relegate such talk completely to the loony bin, but this guy set out to take his drive apart and divorce it from its factory power supply, created his own batter power supply, (IMO I think you could get great results with a 'good' supply plugged into a Digibuss, but his could be better, who knows) and constructed an elaborate vibrational dissipation system, created a faraday shield around the drive electronics within his custom chassis, as well as somehow utilizing magnets as he described.  I would hazard a guess and say that with these implementations, the ripped WAV file would be less damaged because he "created a blacker background (environment)" so-to-speak in which the digital data was extracted and laid down in its new form as magnetic storage.
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: P.I. on July 23, 2020, 09:40:33 PM
you can take my name off the list.  i have just listened to the first 7 songs of the marc cohn album; no way i could sit and listen to this even once, let alone the twice or more, necessary to do a meaningful comparison.  just not my cuppa.

thanks anyway,

doug s.
OK.  Too bad... 😔. If you want to send me two copies (preferably from the same production lot) of preferred music I’ll be happy to do my thing to them and send them back.  Just let me know.
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: P.I. on July 23, 2020, 09:52:10 PM
]The OWC Elite Pro is one of the best sounding drive enclosures available.  So says my digital guru Eric Hider.  He has listened to everything and the OWC is his choice due to the controller.  It does sound better than what I was using...

Hi Dave,

Is the matching OWC optical drive ok as well? I keep hearing some Pioneer model (that doesn't fit the OWC) as being great as well. Or is the choice of optical drive not as critical as the controller of the enclosure?

Then there is the question of the power supply and usb connection to the drive, correct?

Paul
I have no knowledge of their optical drives.  I’ll ask my guy and let you know what he knows.
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: P.I. on July 23, 2020, 09:53:52 PM
  Is this not what a music server does. Rips to bit perfect then to a SSD like the Innuos Server.

charles
That's the entire point of this thread that I started:

"99% of the copied CDs sound worse than the original when played on a quality Hi-Fi system. Is it the fault of digital extraction? How to know? Knowing whether the file has been extracted to the nearest bit 100% identical to that of the original audio CD is impossible, failing to be able to compare with the file of the master tape. Error analysis tools are simple indicators. Counting errors C2 is only an index which measures imperfections, approximations, but which does not predict musicality."

"The particular music lover lacks a tool of comparison, of reference. Only those who navigate the music industry can listen to master files to compare with their commercial CDs. Wanting to evaluate what we have extracted with what others have extracted from the same CD is in no way a guarantee of accuracy (see service accurate ripp). Getting the same number will simply mean that others have done the same and got the same. Alas the law of the greatest number is not the guarantee of a perfect extraction especially if one is looking for something as difficult to measure as the notion of musicality."

The field of ripping, digital audio extraction (DAE in English) has always been neglected, because we mistakenly believed to have identified all the parameters. This blissful self-satisfaction was so firmly anchored in people's minds that the DAE remained frozen, untouched by any innovation that took into account what really mattered, namely musicality, far beyond the illusory "Bit perfect" or other "Accurate rip ".

He's saying that there's unmeasureable (by any test equipment/software analysis, but the ear can hear the improvements) analog components of the ripped WAV file that are part of every "bit perfect" rip.  Any website that specializes in computer DAE (i.e. hydrogenaudio) will relegate such talk completely to the loony bin, but this guy set out to take his drive apart and divorce it from its factory power supply, created his own batter power supply, (IMO I think you could get great results with a 'good' supply plugged into a Digibuss, but his could be better, who knows) and constructed an elaborate vibrational dissipation system, created a faraday shield around the drive electronics within his custom chassis, as well as somehow utilizing magnets as he described.  I would hazard a guess and say that with these implementations, the ripped WAV file would be less damaged because he "created a blacker background (environment)" so-to-speak in which the digital data was extracted and laid down in its new form as magnetic storage.
The differences in SQ back in the day with rips from CDs were largely influenced by the software being used.  Just making a copy from another disc produced tons of errors and they were quite obvious.

A whole new world opened up for me whan I got a Cary 306 CD player to replace my Rotel 990.  The level of detail was amazing and I could easily hear all of the SQ rip differences that the 990 had obscured.

I started doing mods to my ripping system and I built a Mini-ITX computer with a bare bones Windows XP operating system.  I started trying to get better SQ from rips when I bought a Plextor drive that was much better than the generic one in my PC.  Then rips got much better when Exact Audio Copy (EAC) came along. I built a linear supply for the Plextor and an enclosure out of Baltic birch that I damped with automotive sound deadening sheets.  Those two mods combined with shielding the ribbon cable were eye opening for me.

Then I left the Dark Side and got a late 2012 Core I7 Mac mini w/16G RAM and a Mach 2 software package. That was a completely different animal.  The mini, without a jungle of cables running around inside, produced superior results.  The Mach 2 software was revelatory.  It was like several layers of veils were removed from the recordings.  The noise floor is non-existent.  The decay of notes was amazing.  Mach 2 went away and the developer of that software package did a new build for Eric Hider (dB Audio Labs).  That package is a 'bit' better and I see no reason to move on from this.

Like I noted before drive cases has always been a place to readily hear differences.  This is due to the quality of the controller.  Presently I am using a 1TB SSD in the mini for ultimate playback and use an WD 6TB drive as mass storage.  The quality and types of cables used between the CD drive - a Mac SuperDrive - and the min as well as the WD drive is very important.  I use a TWL/PI Discreet from the SuperDrive to the mini and a Firewire 800 cable from the WD to the mini.

Some things are a tad blurry in the time domain of what happened when in my journey, but at least I hit the high points.  At 72 some things seem like they happened yesterday and somethings are iffy in order.

For streaming I have no qualms stateing that playing from files is still superior.  No, I have plan to buying a streamer that sells for the price of a good used car.  I use Tidal for general listening and when I want to preview something I might want a hard copy for.  It is just too easy.

Finally:  I have little use for hi-rez.  There are millions of titles in Redbook out there.  I have about 4 TB of them.  It is a fact that we are still getting better at getting ALL of the data encoded on disc.  Ripping at 88.2 is superior in SQ.  96kHz has decimation problems that are audible in the terms of hardness in the highs to my ears.

Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: TrueAudio on July 25, 2020, 08:49:31 AM
Here's good info on the subject of Audio CD's:

https://www.cdrfaq.org/faq02.html
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: doug s. on July 25, 2020, 12:26:08 PM
hi!

i appreciate your willingness to do this for me.  but i am still confused about what you'd be doing.  why two copies?  aren't you going to be copying one w/your special procedure, and then going to send me the original and the copy?

thanks!

doug s.
you can take my name off the list.  i have just listened to the first 7 songs of the marc cohn album; no way i could sit and listen to this even once, let alone the twice or more, necessary to do a meaningful comparison.  just not my cuppa.

thanks anyway,

doug s.
OK.  Too bad... 😔. If you want to send me two copies (preferably from the same production lot) of preferred music I’ll be happy to do my thing to them and send them back.  Just let me know.
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: P.I. on July 25, 2020, 02:58:36 PM
hi!

i appreciate your willingness to do this for me.  but i am still confused about what you'd be doing.  why two copies?  aren't you going to be copying one w/your special procedure, and then going to send me the original and the copy?

thanks!

doug s.
you can take my name off the list.  i have just listened to the first 7 songs of the marc cohn album; no way i could sit and listen to this even once, let alone the twice or more, necessary to do a meaningful comparison.  just not my cuppa.

thanks anyway,

doug s.
OK.  Too bad... 😔. If you want to send me two copies (preferably from the same production lot) of preferred music I’ll be happy to do my thing to them and send them back.  Just let me know.
From the first page, typos and all:

"I would be willing to buy 2 CD’, do the treatment burn a black CDand send it out to the group IF people here agree to treat them with kid gloves so everyone can hear (or not) the differences in protocols."

I wasn't very clear in what I wrote about the 2 CD thing.  One CD will be the control, the second will be treated and the black one is just to demonstrate the differences in the black media and the standard clear media.  They are all different and it is up to the listener to choose which one has the best SQ on his system.  We are all interested in superior SQ, right?
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: TrueAudio on July 25, 2020, 05:13:21 PM
Here are pics (not the best quality) of the guys mod/rebuilding of the drive-custom power supply and chassis (double shell)--pretty elaborate:

(http://api.guide.free.fr/blog/images/power-ripp.png)

Here's some more text I translated with google translate from:  http://api.guide.free.fr/blog/archive026.htm

He's noting actual sound quality differences between different optical drives:


"(*) The CDAD listening report read on the CD-SACD Phi Audiophile living room turntable will be read on the update

(**) When listening to the same ripped audio file, the Benq drive is less analytical than the Samsung. Samsung is more neutral, more detailed, cleaner. The Benq would seem more messy, its extreme bass is less varied, a little inflated. The Benq accentuates the lower midrange and the upper bass a little ... But it is its flaws that make it so charming, a charm made up of life, flesh, spontaneity, energy ... this is the illustration even the art of lying-truth ... and which earned him the note 9.5 in my ear. We can tell it's a bit colorful, but it's such a treat that we don't care about neutrality. The Benq has the advantage over the Samsung that it can be easily implemented even for less DIY enthusiasts.

(***) To benefit both from its precision, from its analytical power and at the same time from the same vitality as the Benq, the Samsung drive requires a lot of reconstruction work. But it's really worth it since in its final version it subjectively reaches a higher score, at 9.8.

(****) The comments on the final version (click) will be read on the update "91-power-ripp.htm file"

The two drives after transformation come together to give a very close sound reproduction, while very far at the start. As soon as we approach a certain perfection the differences fade in favor of an increased proximity with the damn original audio, the master tape. The final difference will be a personal musical choice, a more analytical sound rendering or a warmer sound rendering (the feeling will of course be much more subtle and nuanced than these coarse qualifiers). It can also be a practical choice if you find a used Benq drive. The DIY part will then be reduced."

He has a table where he documents his observations per each level of modification, where each series of mods, he notes improvements, rated on a scale of 1-10 (put the link into google translate to see the actual table).


"Match of old and new: DAE compared to external USB2 or internal UC CD-DVD drives / burners

Power supply 12v, 5v, original

With external power supply + Silmic2 filtering

With external power supply + Silmic2 filtering + cocooning + Pharos

With external power supply + Silmic2 filtering + cocooning + drive mounted in the audiophile Phi box, without then with Pharos, finally in its final version in a double shell case."
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: doug s. on July 26, 2020, 11:46:47 AM
ok, so i was not getting that a regular cd that was "treated" would sound better than a regular untreated cd.  i was assuming that it was the ripping process - and doing it using a black cd - that was effecting the improvements. 

so, inquiring minds want to know - which sounds better (in your opinion) - the treated regular cd, or the specially ripped and treated (if other treatments are done) black cd?

i guess i should g back and re-read what, exactly, it is you're doing?  or is it not really clear?  hah!  😁

thanks,

doug s.
From the first page, typos and all:

"I would be willing to buy 2 CD’, do the treatment burn a black CDand send it out to the group IF people here agree to treat them with kid gloves so everyone can hear (or not) the differences in protocols."

I wasn't very clear in what I wrote about the 2 CD thing.  One CD will be the control, the second will be treated and the black one is just to demonstrate the differences in the black media and the standard clear media.  They are all different and it is up to the listener to choose which one has the best SQ on his system.  We are all interested in superior SQ, right?
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: P.I. on July 26, 2020, 04:22:12 PM
ok, so i was not getting that a regular cd that was "treated" would sound better than a regular untreated cd.  i was assuming that it was the ripping process - and doing it using a black cd - that was effecting the improvements. 

so, inquiring minds want to know - which sounds better (in your opinion) - the treated regular cd, or the specially ripped and treated (if other treatments are done) black cd?

i guess i should g back and re-read what, exactly, it is you're doing?  or is it not really clear?  hah!  😁

thanks,

doug s.
From the first page, typos and all:

"I would be willing to buy 2 CD’, do the treatment burn a black CDand send it out to the group IF people here agree to treat them with kid gloves so everyone can hear (or not) the differences in protocols."

I wasn't very clear in what I wrote about the 2 CD thing.  One CD will be the control, the second will be treated and the black one is just to demonstrate the differences in the black media and the standard clear media.  They are all different and it is up to the listener to choose which one has the best SQ on his system.  We are all interested in superior SQ, right?
Like I said, I’m not going to pollute the data pool by making direct statements that will effect expectation or confirmation bias.  That is what this entire exercise is all about.  Demonstrations of differences.
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: P.I. on July 26, 2020, 06:25:11 PM
ok, so i was not getting that a regular cd that was "treated" would sound better than a regular untreated cd.  i was assuming that it was the ripping process - and doing it using a black cd - that was effecting the improvements. 

so, inquiring minds want to know - which sounds better (in your opinion) - the treated regular cd, or the specially ripped and treated (if other treatments are done) black cd?

i guess i should g back and re-read what, exactly, it is you're doing?  or is it not really clear?  hah!  😁

thanks,

doug s.
From the first page, typos and all:

"I would be willing to buy 2 CD’, do the treatment burn a black CDand send it out to the group IF people here agree to treat them with kid gloves so everyone can hear (or not) the differences in protocols."

I wasn't very clear in what I wrote about the 2 CD thing.  One CD will be the control, the second will be treated and the black one is just to demonstrate the differences in the black media and the standard clear media.  They are all different and it is up to the listener to choose which one has the best SQ on his system.  We are all interested in superior SQ, right?
OK, Doug.  Let’s make this easy.  I’ll treat my copy of SKIP, HOP & WOBBLE, burn a black CD and send them both to you.  I will want to get my copy of that CD back from you.  Once you listen to yours, mine and the burned copy PM or email me with your thoughts.  DO NOT post your findings until the experiment is over.

OK?
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: P.I. on July 28, 2020, 03:33:41 PM
ok, so i was not getting that a regular cd that was "treated" would sound better than a regular untreated cd.  i was assuming that it was the ripping process - and doing it using a black cd - that was effecting the improvements. 

so, inquiring minds want to know - which sounds better (in your opinion) - the treated regular cd, or the specially ripped and treated (if other treatments are done) black cd?

i guess i should g back and re-read what, exactly, it is you're doing?  or is it not really clear?  hah!  😁

thanks,

doug s.
From the first page, typos and all:

"I would be willing to buy 2 CD’, do the treatment burn a black CDand send it out to the group IF people here agree to treat them with kid gloves so everyone can hear (or not) the differences in protocols."

I wasn't very clear in what I wrote about the 2 CD thing.  One CD will be the control, the second will be treated and the black one is just to demonstrate the differences in the black media and the standard clear media.  They are all different and it is up to the listener to choose which one has the best SQ on his system.  We are all interested in superior SQ, right?
OK, Doug.  Let’s make this easy.  I’ll treat my copy of SKIP, HOP & WOBBLE, burn a black CD and send them both to you.  I will want to get my copy of that CD back from you.  Once you listen to yours, mine and the burned copy PM or email me with your thoughts.  DO NOT post your findings until the experiment is over.

OK?
All I have here is crickets  🦗🦗🦗
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: doug s. on July 28, 2020, 03:37:43 PM
hi dave, lemme quote what you said prior, and maybe you'll understand a bit of my confusion:

For the highest quality rip here is what I do. I’m still using DB Poweramp...

Cryo the CD (yes, it matters)
Demag the CD
Demag a black CD
Burn with error correction enabled
Demag it again
Copy to the SSD
Transfer to the archive drive

Yes, every step makes an audible difference.

The real interesting aspects are cryo and demagnetizing.


so, what i got out of that is that, while a commercial cd that's cryo'd and demag'd may sound better than a commercial cd that's never been treated, what really sounds the best is a ripped black cd that's been cryo'd and demag'd.

so, if what i think is correct - that the best sound is coming from the ripped treated black cd - even better than the treated commercial cd, then all i really would need/want is the ripped/treated black cd.

in my own comparison quite a few years back, a plain old ordinary black cd ripped on a plain old ordinary pc sounded better than the commercial iteration (and patricia barber cd's re done up pretty well imo.)

if a commercial treated cd is better than a standard cd, i don't really care, if the treated ripped black cd is better still.

and just so i'm understanding exactly what you're doing -
- 1st, you cryo and demag a commercial cd. 
- then, you copy the commercial cryo'd/demag'd cd to your computer/burner set up.
- then, from your computer/burner set-up, you burn the copy on a (cryo'd/demag'd?) black cd.
- then you demag (and cryo?) the black cd again.

if the above is what your doing, (or close to it? - hah!), then all you need to do for me is to send me the special-sauce black cd copy.  i'll trust you that your treated commercial copy is better than the untreated commercial cd, but i'm only really interested in the best one, which is the black cd, as i'm understanding it.

thanks for your patience.   :mrgreen:

doug s.
ps - sorry for taking a while to respond - my injury means i'm not on the computer frequently, and forget about trying to answer from my cell-phone.   :?

ok, so i was not getting that a regular cd that was "treated" would sound better than a regular untreated cd.  i was assuming that it was the ripping process - and doing it using a black cd - that was effecting the improvements. 

so, inquiring minds want to know - which sounds better (in your opinion) - the treated regular cd, or the specially ripped and treated (if other treatments are done) black cd?

i guess i should g back and re-read what, exactly, it is you're doing?  or is it not really clear?  hah!  😁

thanks,

doug s.
From the first page, typos and all:

"I would be willing to buy 2 CD’, do the treatment burn a black CDand send it out to the group IF people here agree to treat them with kid gloves so everyone can hear (or not) the differences in protocols."

I wasn't very clear in what I wrote about the 2 CD thing.  One CD will be the control, the second will be treated and the black one is just to demonstrate the differences in the black media and the standard clear media.  They are all different and it is up to the listener to choose which one has the best SQ on his system.  We are all interested in superior SQ, right?
OK, Doug.  Let’s make this easy.  I’ll treat my copy of SKIP, HOP & WOBBLE, burn a black CD and send them both to you.  I will want to get my copy of that CD back from you.  Once you listen to yours, mine and the burned copy PM or email me with your thoughts.  DO NOT post your findings until the experiment is over.

OK?
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: P.I. on July 29, 2020, 03:38:13 PM
hi dave, lemme quote what you said prior, and maybe you'll understand a bit of my confusion:

For the highest quality rip here is what I do. I’m still using DB Poweramp...

Cryo the CD (yes, it matters)
Demag the CD
Demag a black CD
Burn with error correction enabled
Demag it again
Copy to the SSD
Transfer to the archive drive

Yes, every step makes an audible difference.

The real interesting aspects are cryo and demagnetizing.


so, what i got out of that is that, while a commercial cd that's cryo'd and demag'd may sound better than a commercial cd that's never been treated, what really sounds the best is a ripped black cd that's been cryo'd and demag'd.

so, if what i think is correct - that the best sound is coming from the ripped treated black cd - even better than the treated commercial cd, then all i really would need/want is the ripped/treated black cd.

in my own comparison quite a few years back, a plain old ordinary black cd ripped on a plain old ordinary pc sounded better than the commercial iteration (and patricia barber cd's re done up pretty well imo.)

if a commercial treated cd is better than a standard cd, i don't really care, if the treated ripped black cd is better still.

and just so i'm understanding exactly what you're doing -
- 1st, you cryo and demag a commercial cd. 
- then, you copy the commercial cryo'd/demag'd cd to your computer/burner set up.
- then, from your computer/burner set-up, you burn the copy on a (cryo'd/demag'd?) black cd.
- then you demag (and cryo?) the black cd again.

if the above is what your doing, (or close to it? - hah!), then all you need to do for me is to send me the special-sauce black cd copy.  i'll trust you that your treated commercial copy is better than the untreated commercial cd, but i'm only really interested in the best one, which is the black cd, as i'm understanding it.

thanks for your patience.   :mrgreen:

doug s.
ps - sorry for taking a while to respond - my injury means i'm not on the computer frequently, and forget about trying to answer from my cell-phone.   :?

ok, so i was not getting that a regular cd that was "treated" would sound better than a regular untreated cd.  i was assuming that it was the ripping process - and doing it using a black cd - that was effecting the improvements. 

so, inquiring minds want to know - which sounds better (in your opinion) - the treated regular cd, or the specially ripped and treated (if other treatments are done) black cd?

i guess i should g back and re-read what, exactly, it is you're doing?  or is it not really clear?  hah!  😁

thanks,

doug s.
From the first page, typos and all:

"I would be willing to buy 2 CD’, do the treatment burn a black CDand send it out to the group IF people here agree to treat them with kid gloves so everyone can hear (or not) the differences in protocols."

I wasn't very clear in what I wrote about the 2 CD thing.  One CD will be the control, the second will be treated and the black one is just to demonstrate the differences in the black media and the standard clear media.  They are all different and it is up to the listener to choose which one has the best SQ on his system.  We are all interested in superior SQ, right?
OK, Doug.  Let’s make this easy.  I’ll treat my copy of SKIP, HOP & WOBBLE, burn a black CD and send them both to you.  I will want to get my copy of that CD back from you.  Once you listen to yours, mine and the burned copy PM or email me with your thoughts.  DO NOT post your findings until the experiment is over.

OK?
No worries, Doug.  I was being impatient 'cuz I want to get this show on the road.  I'll send the full package to Don early next week.

PM me your address and I'll get the black CD off to you.  I just thought that as an audio nerd you might like to hear the differences.
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: doug s. on July 29, 2020, 04:12:57 PM
thanks, dave.

as an audio nerd, i'm ok with hearing "good" (commercial cd untreated) and "best" (treated black cd).  😁

am i to assume i'm correct that good-better-best is: commercial cd - treated clear cd - treated black cd?

thanks again,

doug
No worries, Doug.  I was being impatient 'cuz I want to get this show on the road.  I'll send the full package to Don early next week.

PM me your address and I'll get the black CD off to you.  I just thought that as an audio nerd you might like to hear the differences.
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: P.I. on July 29, 2020, 08:23:18 PM
thanks, dave.

as an audio nerd, i'm ok with hearing "good" (commercial cd untreated) and "best" (treated black cd).  😁

am i to assume i'm correct that good-better-best is: commercial cd - treated clear cd - treated black cd?

thanks again,

doug
No worries, Doug.  I was being impatient 'cuz I want to get this show on the road.  I'll send the full package to Don early next week.

PM me your address and I'll get the black CD off to you.  I just thought that as an audio nerd you might like to hear the differences.
Like I said several times: I will not pollute the project with direct statements until it is over.  I’m not trying to be difficult, just loyal to the process.
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: P.I. on July 30, 2020, 04:39:30 PM
]The OWC Elite Pro is one of the best sounding drive enclosures available.  So says my digital guru Eric Hider.  He has listened to everything and the OWC is his choice due to the controller.  It does sound better than what I was using...

Hi Dave,

Is the matching OWC optical drive ok as well? I keep hearing some Pioneer model (that doesn't fit the OWC) as being great as well. Or is the choice of optical drive not as critical as the controller of the enclosure?

Then there is the question of the power supply and usb connection to the drive, correct?

Paul
Sorry for the late reply.  Basically Eric said he really can't speak to this when Windblows is involved. He (like me) thinks that the Mac OSX solutions are superior to Windblows based software because of the integral audio engine in OSX being inherently better sounding.  I have to agree.  I spent way too much money trying to build a PC based server that sounded better than the entry level Mac and just could not do it.  I have cases and motherboards here for those that want to try.

I use a SuperDive and I am very happy with he SQ.  Getting data off of the disc is easy.  What happens next... not so much.

He did say that some of his friends and customers praise the Teac drives.

Bottom line:  who really knows?
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: malloy on July 30, 2020, 09:28:08 PM
Sorry for the late reply.  Basically Eric said he really can't speak to this when Windblows is involved. He (like me) thinks that the Mac OSX solutions are superior to Windblows based software because of the integral audio engine in OSX being inherently better sounding.  I have to agree.  I spent way too much money trying to build a PC based server that sounded better than the entry level Mac and just could not do it.  I have cases and motherboards here for those that want to try.

I use a SuperDive and I am very happy with he SQ.  Getting data off of the disc is easy.  What happens next... not so much.

He did say that some of his friends and customers praise the Teac drives.

Bottom line:  who really knows?
[/quote]

Thanks Dave! :thumb:

Paul
Title: The CD rip/burn experiment is underway...
Post by: P.I. on August 03, 2020, 09:30:29 PM
I’ll be sending the discs out to the first victim participant tomorrow (Tuesday).

Don, I’ll send you the tracking number.

Let the head scratching begin!   :thumb:
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: Nick B on August 03, 2020, 10:24:33 PM
OK

https://media2.giphy.com/media/3ohjUZZEFfWJfaeKUE/giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e478e5629e6ba9acc5953c32cf60ce1fd0c6d2147f7&rid=giphy.gif
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: P.I. on August 04, 2020, 09:32:42 AM
OK

https://media2.giphy.com/media/3ohjUZZEFfWJfaeKUE/giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e478e5629e6ba9acc5953c32cf60ce1fd0c6d2147f7&rid=giphy.gif
:rofl:
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: dflee on August 04, 2020, 11:22:36 AM
"OK

https://media2.giphy.com/media/3ohjUZZEFfWJfaeKUE/giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e478e5629e6ba9acc5953c32cf60ce1fd0c6d2147f7&rid=giphy.gif

That thing is never ending! I did like the Fred Sanford though.

Guinea Pig #1 reporting for duty.
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: P.I. on August 04, 2020, 11:42:53 AM
"OK

https://media2.giphy.com/media/3ohjUZZEFfWJfaeKUE/giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e478e5629e6ba9acc5953c32cf60ce1fd0c6d2147f7&rid=giphy.gif

That thing is never ending! I did like the Fred Sanford though.

Guinea Pig #1 reporting for duty.

I was going to put this is the shipping box, but being the dumbass I am I sealed the box up without it, so:

Players,

Please treat the discs carefully as the performance is directly related to disc condition.

It is your responsibility to send the disc to the next person in line.  Please reuse the packing material and use a USPS small flate rate Priority mail box.

The lineup so far is :

dflee

Malloy

Barry

I’m sending Doug s a copy of a different CD.

I’ll try to get some additional victims.

Ya’ll have fun!
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: malloy on August 04, 2020, 10:17:48 PM
Dave,

Can't wait! Thanks! :thumb:

More guinea pigs are needed!

Paul
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: Nick B on August 04, 2020, 10:47:59 PM
Dave,

Can't wait! Thanks! :thumb:

More guinea pigs are needed!

Paul

Gonna be fun, Paul! Dave has entrusted me with the test information. My lips are unequivocally sealed, but...do you have my PayPal address??  :rofl: Just joshin’  Hope a couple more guys sign up
Nick
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: malloy on August 04, 2020, 10:55:22 PM
Hi Nick,

Actually, I do have your PayPal.  :rofl:

You might find a hefty sum deposited when I find out I can't hear any difference at all!

I can actually use that as an excuse to get a new cd player.

Paul
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: P.I. on August 05, 2020, 01:48:21 PM
'Tis gonna be interesting...

TBC >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: rollo on August 15, 2020, 09:17:49 AM
  Count me in.


charles
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: P.I. on August 15, 2020, 12:38:17 PM
  Count me in.


charles
You got it.  We have our first report in from Don Fleenor and the discs are on the way to Paul.  Don alerted me to an issue with the black Memorex CD and I'm in the process of getting a new one to Paul.  I had 4 different files of that target CD and I inadvertently burned the wrong one.  I have since purged the one that ended up on the first CD.  We can thank Don for the heads up  :thumb:

You are going to find this exercise VERY interesting, Charles.   :thumb:
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: malloy on August 16, 2020, 08:22:40 AM
Dave,

Got them yesterday.  :thumb:

Paul
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: rollo on August 22, 2020, 08:18:51 AM
  Thanks Dave. To be played back with Aqua Formula xHD DAC and Dedicated transport. Should be fun.  I'll rip one into the Innuos Zenith mk3 as well.


charles
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: rollo on August 27, 2020, 09:02:30 AM
  Thanks Dave. To be played back with Aqua Formula xHD DAC and Dedicated transport. Should be fun.  I'll rip one into the Innuos Zenith mk3 as well.


charles


   Received from Barry in person. Thanks Barry. Listening to all and so far ????? Who is next ? I need a couple more days. Differences heard now re- evaluating my initial findings to verify findings.


charles
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: Barry (NJ) on August 27, 2020, 10:08:50 AM
Charles, send your findings directly to Dave (P.I.) in a PM, don't post here ;)

Best, Barry
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: P.I. on August 27, 2020, 12:42:55 PM
  Thanks Dave. To be played back with Aqua Formula xHD DAC and Dedicated transport. Should be fun.  I'll rip one into the Innuos Zenith mk3 as well.


charles
Looks like you are the end of the line.  Please PM me with you findings and copy Nick B in on it.   He is keeping all of the results.  When we are all through, then we will discuss this on the open forum.


   Received from Barry in person. Thanks Barry. Listening to all and so far ????? Who is next ? I need a couple more days. Differences heard now re- evaluating my initial findings to verify findings.


charles
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: rollo on August 28, 2020, 08:28:09 AM
  OK will do.

charles
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: P.I. on September 01, 2020, 12:00:52 PM
Ok, results are in.  Here is the scoop:

Disc @ - the standard disc straight from the vendor

Disc # - this disc was demagged and cryogenically treated

CD-R - Burned from the # disc.

Let the comments begin...
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: Barry (NJ) on September 01, 2020, 05:51:24 PM
Okay, here are my thoughts...

I did a bunch of back and forth with the 2 factory CDs...

@: sharper attack, more air, and darker background.

#: a bit warmer, rounder, fuller, but maybe a bit of grit(?)

 After that I popped the CDR in...

CDR: best of the three for me(?) bigger sound stage, more front to back layering.

In general a nice recording, not my go to genre, but very enjoyable.
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: rollo on September 02, 2020, 08:26:58 AM
  My take was the # disc was the most natural sounding. The CDR was more open however Hi fi sounding meaning sounded processed. Harmonics did not fade they ended crisply. The @ disc was less Hi Fi but still not equal to the #disc.



charles
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: malloy on September 02, 2020, 08:59:37 PM
I got it totally backward. I thought the @ disc was the treated disc! I preferred the @ disc to the # disc. Less hi-fi sounding is the reason. Is it an indictment of my antiquated stereo or hearing or both ?!!  :rofl: :lol:

I found the vocals on the @ more processed.

This was consistent. I have yet to listen to the CDR - the postman just found it after spending a week in a neighbor's mailbox!

I liked the sound of the 'wrong' CDR disc that Dave sent though.

Paul
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: Nick B on September 02, 2020, 09:14:42 PM
I got it totally backward. I thought the @ disc was the treated disc! I preferred the @ disc to the # disc. Less hi-fi sounding is the reason. Is it an indictment of my antiquated stereo or hearing or both ?!!  :rofl: :lol:

I found the vocals on the @ more processed.

This was consistent. I have yet to listen to the CDR - the postman just found it after spending a week in a neighbor's mailbox!

I liked the sound of the 'wrong' CDR disc that Dave sent though.

Paul

Hey Paul,
Seems this might be more an indication of the age of your CD player than your ears and those of your wife, who’s a trained singer if I recall correctly. Waiting for your thoughts on that CDR. As to the postal service, my neighbor recently brought me some of my mail that he had received. Unfortunately, it was a bill rather than a tweaked CDR :(
Nick
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: malloy on September 02, 2020, 09:26:52 PM
Hi Nick,

Ughh. I hate bills. As for the wife, yes, she consistently picked the untreated disc.

Now for my litany of excuses:  :thumb:

Listening conditions were not ideal here when I listened - that was the week when we had 100 degree temps and we were listening in the garage (where she lets me keep my junk...er gear) in sweltering heat and when the house and the whole neighborhood were blasting their ACs. It was also the week I was still probably breaking in the long Oyaide cable. Also hadn't turned on nor listened to the CD player in 6 months, etc. etc.

Well maybe this is the prefect excuse i can use so I can buy new gear.  :rofl:I'll tell the wife, "Well, the cd player is just not up to snuff!"  and I need a power conditioner!

As for the post office, they actually called me up and emailed to make sure I got the package. That was surprising!

Paul
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: P.I. on September 02, 2020, 10:07:21 PM
There are no “right” or “wrong” answers in this little shell game we played.  All it really does is demonstrate that “bits is bits” is a pile of crap.  The fact that “perfect sound forever” can be manipulated by processes that the expurtz will tell us, with a great deal of self-righteous sanctimony, will have absolutely no effects on a digital format is telling.  De-magging and cryoing had obvious audible effects on the # disc.  Some preferred it, others did not.  That fact is irrelevant for several reasons.  1:  personal preference - 2:  system dependency (especially the DAC) - 3: ripping and burning software - 4: hard drive type - 5: drive controller  - 6: phase of the moon...  These things are most of, but not all of the mitigating factors that influenced the outcome.

Certainly the cryogenic and demag results are explainable:

Inks are magnetic.  It doesn’t take much energy to nudge a photon.

Cryo increases optical clarity.  Sandra National Labs utilizes one of the worlds highest resolution optical microscope that has cryo treated and cooled lenses.

FWIW - my digital playback system:  2012 Core i7 Mac mini; dB Audio Labs Tranquility DAC (massively modified); 1TB Samsung 970EVO SSD; P.I. FireWire 800 cable; OWC Mercury Elite Pro drive enclosure w/WD 6TB 3.5” drive; TWL/P.I. Split Power cable; P.I. MPC mini++ power cable; mass loading; isolation; jumbo jumbo and black candles ... sounds very good to ME and Gayle.  That is all that matters  :thumb:  Hell, I’m 72 with many firearms in my past (mostly using hearing protection), so there ya’ go!

There’s more, but it is late and I’m tired.
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: Barry (NJ) on September 03, 2020, 06:07:33 AM
I got it totally backward. I thought the @ disc was the treated disc! I preferred the @ disc to the # disc. Less hi-fi sounding is the reason. Is it an indictment of my antiquated stereo or hearing or both ?!!  :rofl: :lol:

Paul

Hi Paul, you're not alone, I too thought the @ disc was the treated disc. Not sure which I "preferred", but as Dave says, it's not what we preferred but that differences were heard, where some would say there shouldn't be any.

Dave, Thanks again for making this happen!

P.S. I'm curious as to just Cryo vs. just De-Mag treatment, instead of both(?)
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: dflee on September 03, 2020, 06:39:25 AM
Man did I go overboard.
Wrote my findings to Dave.
Thanks for letting me be a part and for letting me know
the Furotec demagger isn't strong enough to do the trick.

Don
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: Barry (NJ) on September 03, 2020, 09:04:13 AM
Man did I go overboard.
Wrote my findings to Dave.
Thanks for letting me be a part and for letting me know
the Furotec demagger isn't strong enough to do the trick.

Don

Don, like you, I'd originally sent my thoughts to Dave, but after it was over I just copied and pasted them here from my message. You can do the same, I'd love to read what your thoughts were.
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: P.I. on September 03, 2020, 11:48:30 AM
I got it totally backward. I thought the @ disc was the treated disc! I preferred the @ disc to the # disc. Less hi-fi sounding is the reason. Is it an indictment of my antiquated stereo or hearing or both ?!!  :rofl: :lol:

Paul

Hi Paul, you're not alone, I too thought the @ disc was the treated disc. Not sure which I "preferred", but as Dave says, it's not what we preferred but that differences were heard, where some would say there shouldn't be any.

Dave, Thanks again for making this happen!

P.S. I'm curious as to just Cryo vs. just De-Mag treatment, instead of both(?)
Cryo alone is discernible, but does not have the depth that the cryo + demag does ON MY SYSTEM.  It really is system/preference dependent.  Same with damaging. 

I remember the first disc I did the demag treatment to: Bonnie Raitt "Streetlights".  I was doing some work at a local studio and the owner and I were using that disc as some background music as we did some maintenance.  He had the bulk tape eraser out and I told him that I had read where demagging a CD produced an audible change.  He said "I don't believe that", so we decided to give it a try.  DAC was an Apogee AD-8000 which was pretty much SOTA for that time (1999).  We listened to "What Is Success", demagged the disc, and listened again.  All of the settings on the gear was untouched per good A/B practice.  After about 5 seconds he looked at me and said: "What the **** just happened?"  He became a true believer and from that day on every disc that left that studio was treated, sometimes twice - before and after the burn.  That was the day he nicknamed me 'the audio esoterrorist'.

 :)
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: malloy on September 03, 2020, 09:41:52 PM
The fact that “perfect sound forever” can be manipulated by processes that the expurtz will tell us, with a great deal of self-righteous sanctimony, will have absolutely no effects on a digital format is telling. 
:clap:

This cannot be stressed enough. And weren't cd players themselves supposed to sound the same regardless of price once upon a time (and apparently, this still holds true in some forums to this day! :duh)?


Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: P.I. on September 03, 2020, 10:28:30 PM
The fact that “perfect sound forever” can be manipulated by processes that the expurtz will tell us, with a great deal of self-righteous sanctimony, will have absolutely no effects on a digital format is telling. 
:clap:

This cannot be stressed enough. And weren't cd players themselves supposed to sound the same regardless of price once upon a time (and apparently, this still holds true in some forums to this day! :duh)?
Paul, you are absolutely correct.  One of the reasons that I am here is due to moderator(s) telling me on open forums or in nasty PMs that I was an idiot, snake oil salesman, not paying attention “to the science” (how many times have we heard that term lately!) or calling me delusional.  That sucked.

There is a consistent theme on many forums that measurements tell all there is to know about SQ. We have yet to develop a measurement system that is anywhere close to the ear/brain discriminator 😁
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: tmazz on September 04, 2020, 07:57:00 AM
Demagnetizing CDs is an idea that has been around (and argued about) for decades. 

Remember the Bedini Ultra Clarifier?

(https://images.hifido.co.jp/10/852/85201/c.jpg)

This device came out in the 1990s and was essentially a motor that spun a CD at a high rate of speed over a number of magnets with the goal of dispersing and magnetic charges that had built up on the disc.

Like most tweaks in this hobby that Ultra Clarifier stirred up all kinds of sh#t storms. in a 1994 review, Myles Astor wrote about it "The Bedini Ultra Clarifier sets a new benchmark for degree of sound improvement. You owe it to yourself to get this product if you listen to digital. Otherwise, you haven't heard your discs." And on the other side of the fence were all kinds of nay sayers making they typical comments like is is snake oil, witchcraft or using it would make your penis fall off. (OK, I made the last one up, but you get the idea. )

Like everything else in this hobby the only thing that really matters in the end is how it sounds to your ears in your system. If you like, you buy it, if not you move on and invest your money elsewhere in your system. and the hell with that anybody else thinks...... or measures.

I got a used one for not a lot of money and used it regularly for quite a while, but then when we moved I did not have a place to put it where it was out and easily accessible. So it sits in a cabinet behind a closed door and out of sight, out of mind, I just have not used it in quite a while. Now I am going to have to pull it out and play with it again.

Of course I just finished ripping about 1600 CDs so they can be played through Roon. I probably should have demagged them first.  :duh
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: tmazz on September 04, 2020, 08:03:15 AM
There is a consistent theme on many forums that measurements tell all there is to know about SQ. We have yet to develop a measurement system that is anywhere close to the ear/brain discriminator 😁

I got into a rather heated discussion with a guy at an audio show several years back where I was told that if I heard a difference that he couldn't measure then the difference did not exist and it was all in my imagination. I ended the argument by saying if I hear a difference that you can measure the answer is simply that you are measuring the wrong thing!

Game, set, match.


Trust only your ears........
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: rollo on September 04, 2020, 08:29:19 AM
   I have used the Radio Shack  Demag device for years. Did not need anyone to tell me if it worked. It works well. All my cables  get the treatment, twice a year. I use the Cardas/Ayre Demag disc for CDs before each listening session. All CDs have had the Radio Shack treatment.  Sounds better to me.


charles
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: Nick B on September 04, 2020, 09:02:51 AM
Demagnetizing CDs is an idea that has been around (and argued about) for decades. 

Remember the Bedini Ultra Clarifier?

(https://images.hifido.co.jp/10/852/85201/c.jpg)

This device came out in the 1990s and was essentially a motor that spun a CD at a high rate of speed over a number of magnets with the goal of dispersing and magnetic charges that had built up on the disc.

Like most tweaks in this hobby that Ultra Clarifier stirred up all kinds of sh#t storms. in a 1994 review, Myles Astor wrote about it "The Bedini Ultra Clarifier sets a new benchmark for degree of sound improvement. You owe it to yourself to get this product if you listen to digital. Otherwise, you haven't heard your discs." And on the other side of the fence were all kinds of nay sayers making they typical comments like is is snake oil, witchcraft or using it would make your penis fall off. (OK, I made the last one up, but you get the idea. )

Like everything else in this hobby the only thing that really matters in the end is how it sounds to your ears in your system. If you like, you buy it, if not you move on and invest your money elsewhere in your system. and the hell with that anybody else thinks...... or measures.

I got a used one for not a lot of money and used it regularly for quite a while, but then when we moved I did not have a place to put it where it was out and easily accessible. So it sits in a cabinet behind a closed door and out of sight, out of mind, I just have not used it in quite a while. Now I am going to have to pull it out and play with it again.

Of course I just finished ripping about 1600 CDs so they can be played through Roon. I probably should have demagged them first.  :duh

Sure do remember the Bedini. Might have had one 25+ years ago.
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: Nick B on September 04, 2020, 09:24:39 AM
   I have used the Radio Shack  Demag device for years. Did not need anyone to tell me if it worked. It works well. All my cables  get the treatment, twice a year. I use the Cardas/Ayre Demag disc for CDs before each listening session. All CDs have had the Radio Shack treatment.  Sounds better to me.


charles

Years ago, I used this Densen disc for system demag
https://www.discogs.com/Densen-Densen-DeMagic-Gold/release/2492018

Just found this Furutech unit. It’s a bit pricey....
https://douglasconnection.com/product/furutech-demag-ii-lp-disc-and-cable-demagnetizer/
Nick
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: P.I. on September 04, 2020, 03:59:00 PM
   I have used the Radio Shack  Demag device for years. Did not need anyone to tell me if it worked. It works well. All my cables  get the treatment, twice a year. I use the Cardas/Ayre Demag disc for CDs before each listening session. All CDs have had the Radio Shack treatment.  Sounds better to me.


charles
:thumb:

Yep.  I have a RatSnack 44-233A that I used on the disc in the experiment.  Works GREAT!    You might want to give it a try on your gear that is not susceptible to demagnetization damage.  DON'T USE IT on cartridges, for the Love of God!  Try it on your cables as long as the are not the High Fidelity cables.  They use neodymium magnets for signal propogation, I guess.
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: P.I. on September 04, 2020, 04:05:45 PM
Here is a reply I made to one of my friends (also a customer) concerning CD quality.  He, like me, agrees that CDs sound better than streamers.  Call us dinosaurs.  That is our story and we're sticking to it!  He is getting a new DAC and other goodies and I just built him an HDMI cable to try.

*****************

From Wiki -

"CD molding machines are specifically designed high temperature polycarbonate injection molders. They have an average throughput of 550-900 discs per hour, per molding line. Clear polycarbonate pellets are first dried at around 130 degrees Celsius for three hours (nominal; this depends on which optical grade resin is in use) and are fed via vacuum transport into one end of the injection molder's barrel (i.e., the feed throat) and are moved to the injection chamber via a large screw inside the barrel. The barrel, wrapped with heater bands ranging in temperature from ca 210 to 320 degrees Celsius melts the polycarbonate. When the mold is closed the screw moves forward to inject molten plastic into the mold cavity. When the mould is full, cool water running through mold halves, outside the cavity, cools the plastic so it somewhat solidifies. The entire process from the mould closing, injection and opening again takes approximately 3 to 5 seconds.

The molded "disc" (referred to as a 'green' disc, lacking final processing) is removed from the mold by vacuum handling; high-speed robot arms with vacuum suction caps. They are moved onto the finishing line infeed conveyor, or cooling station, in preparation for metallization. At this point the discs are clear and contain all the digital information desired; however, they cannot be played because there is no reflective layer.

The discs pass, one at a time, into the metallizer, a small chamber at approximately 10−3 Torr (130 mPa) vacuum. The process is called 'sputtering'. The metallizer contains a metal "target" – almost always an alloy of (mostly) aluminum and small amounts of other metals. There is a load-lock system (similar to an airlock) so the process chamber can be kept at high vacuum as the discs are exchanged. When the disc is rotated into the processing position by a swivel arm in the vacuum chamber, a small dose of argon gas is injected into the process chamber and a 700 volt DC electric current at up to 20 kW is applied to the target. This produces a plasma from the target, and the plasma vapour is deposited onto the disc; it is an anode-cathode transfer. The metal coats the data side of the disc (upper surface), covering the pit and lands. This metal layer is the reflective surface which can be seen on the reverse (non-label side) of a CD. This thin layer of metal is subject to corrosion from various contaminants and so is protected by a thin layer of lacquer.

CDs are printed in waterless offset.

After metallization, the discs pass on to a spin-coater, where UV curable lacquer is dispensed onto the newly metallized layer. By rapid spinning, the lacquer coats the entire disc with a very thin layer (approximately 5 to 10 μm[3]). After the lacquer is applied, the discs pass under a high-intensity UV lamp which cures the lacquer rapidly. The lacquer also provides a surface for a label, generally screen printed or offset printed. The printing ink(s) must be chemically compatible with the lacquer used. Markers used by consumers to write on blank surfaces can lead to breaks in the protective lacquer layer, which may lead to corrosion of the reflective layer, and failure of the CD.

************************

As with records, the quality of the stamper is paramount.  Much more so than with an analog record due to the magnitude of size. Get a CD from a first run and it wil KILL. Get one at the end of life of the stamper and it will, by definition, suck.  There are only ones and zeros (on/off) in the ADC and DAC brains.  The rest of the equation is prone to the weaknesses of all things analog.

What do you guys think?
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: dflee on September 05, 2020, 08:18:59 AM
8/13/20
Mark Cohn:
Not exactly a household name with the exception “Walking in Memphis”, hadn’t heard his work. I can see why Dave chose him because of that and that the album is well performed, produced and recorded. Too bad it wasn’t put on cd in that same manner.
Received the cd in three forms, one with an @, one with a # and one with a #+. @ and # are original cds with #+ being a cdr. There’s nothing with them to designate anything and the only understanding is to listen and evaluate so that’s what I did. And not just once, but three times all the way through with certain sections more. The three different methods were first through my laptop connected to a Liberty dac/amp and ZMF Auteur phones. Second was through my main system and Auteur phones. Lastly through the main system and speakers. Each listen produced a different comparison but the end result of each was the same conclusion. I will point out that I have tinnitus and while it is an absolute pain, it does help in that as sound congests or gets vague, I can’t make out certain instruments or vocals.
@ through laptop:
I thought was somewhat veiled. I had trouble understanding the vocals and at certain times the music seemed muddled. Piano was good until synth came in. it just didn’t seem like I was listening to separate instruments. Soundstage was still large but just one big mass.
# through laptop:
Sound was cleaner. Darker background which lead to better separation with the soundstage remaining rather large. Piano was good and synth added to the overall sound while maintaining the piano’s integrity.
#+ through laptop:
This one threw me. I wasn’t quite expecting what was on this cd. First the songs are not in the same order as the @ & # so I was caught off guard. Second, I’d swear this thing was remastered. It’s that different. It has both @ and # qualities but throws in a couple of additional aspects. The vocals were closer to @ and some instruments were in the # camp with others in the @ defensive. The word that kept popping into my head was Hot. It sounded like it was recorded using hot mikes and equipment. It did retain some of the smeared sound of @ throughout the cd.
Listening through the Accuphase C11 phone connection produced different sound on all three but lead to the same conclusion. And using the rest of my main system and through the speakers seemed to lessen the differences somewhat. The @ vocals were better and instrumentation was more forgiving. The # opened up and retained the vocal and instrumentation separation with decent stage. The #+ wasn’t quite so in your face but still had that close miked sound.
Overall this was an interesting experiment. I wasn’t able to do any blind listening since my wife was unable to help with cd selection but tried to maintain my thought process for each as individual. The best sound to me was # in clarity, blackness and separation. Can’t say I cared much for the other two iterations.

Don

Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: Barry (NJ) on September 05, 2020, 07:04:43 PM
8/13/20  ...snip...
Overall this was an interesting experiment. I wasn’t able to do any blind listening since my wife was unable to help with cd selection but tried to maintain my thought process for each as individual. The best sound to me was # in clarity, blackness and separation. Can’t say I cared much for the other two iterations.

Don

Thanks for the post Don, it was interesting to read your thoughts. I'm just really not a writer, so a couple of lines is all I'm good for ;)
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: rollo on September 08, 2020, 11:34:58 AM
Here is a reply I made to one of my friends (also a customer) concerning CD quality.  He, like me, agrees that CDs sound better than streamers.  Call us dinosaurs.  That is our story and we're sticking to it!  He is getting a new DAC and other goodies and I just built him an HDMI cable to try.

*****************

From Wiki -

"CD molding machines are specifically designed high temperature polycarbonate injection molders. They have an average throughput of 550-900 discs per hour, per molding line. Clear polycarbonate pellets are first dried at around 130 degrees Celsius for three hours (nominal; this depends on which optical grade resin is in use) and are fed via vacuum transport into one end of the injection molder's barrel (i.e., the feed throat) and are moved to the injection chamber via a large screw inside the barrel. The barrel, wrapped with heater bands ranging in temperature from ca 210 to 320 degrees Celsius melts the polycarbonate. When the mold is closed the screw moves forward to inject molten plastic into the mold cavity. When the mould is full, cool water running through mold halves, outside the cavity, cools the plastic so it somewhat solidifies. The entire process from the mould closing, injection and opening again takes approximately 3 to 5 seconds.

The molded "disc" (referred to as a 'green' disc, lacking final processing) is removed from the mold by vacuum handling; high-speed robot arms with vacuum suction caps. They are moved onto the finishing line infeed conveyor, or cooling station, in preparation for metallization. At this point the discs are clear and contain all the digital information desired; however, they cannot be played because there is no reflective layer.

The discs pass, one at a time, into the metallizer, a small chamber at approximately 10−3 Torr (130 mPa) vacuum. The process is called 'sputtering'. The metallizer contains a metal "target" – almost always an alloy of (mostly) aluminum and small amounts of other metals. There is a load-lock system (similar to an airlock) so the process chamber can be kept at high vacuum as the discs are exchanged. When the disc is rotated into the processing position by a swivel arm in the vacuum chamber, a small dose of argon gas is injected into the process chamber and a 700 volt DC electric current at up to 20 kW is applied to the target. This produces a plasma from the target, and the plasma vapour is deposited onto the disc; it is an anode-cathode transfer. The metal coats the data side of the disc (upper surface), covering the pit and lands. This metal layer is the reflective surface which can be seen on the reverse (non-label side) of a CD. This thin layer of metal is subject to corrosion from various contaminants and so is protected by a thin layer of lacquer.

CDs are printed in waterless offset.

After metallization, the discs pass on to a spin-coater, where UV curable lacquer is dispensed onto the newly metallized layer. By rapid spinning, the lacquer coats the entire disc with a very thin layer (approximately 5 to 10 μm[3]). After the lacquer is applied, the discs pass under a high-intensity UV lamp which cures the lacquer rapidly. The lacquer also provides a surface for a label, generally screen printed or offset printed. The printing ink(s) must be chemically compatible with the lacquer used. Markers used by consumers to write on blank surfaces can lead to breaks in the protective lacquer layer, which may lead to corrosion of the reflective layer, and failure of the CD.

************************

As with records, the quality of the stamper is paramount.  Much more so than with an analog record due to the magnitude of size. Get a CD from a first run and it wil KILL. Get one at the end of life of the stamper and it will, by definition, suck.  There are only ones and zeros (on/off) in the ADC and DAC brains.  The rest of the equation is prone to the weaknesses of all things analog.

What do you guys think?



   If wants to experience a "Master" CD then by all means purchase one from Blue Coast Recordings. I as well prefer a CD over streaming. Using a Innuos Zenith Mk3 with outboard USB re-clocker. It sounds great no question. However in a head to head comparison with the Aqua La Diva transport and Formula xHD DAC the transport has an edge. At this level of Digital the Server is so close I can easily listen without the desire for a CD. However when I do play the same on a CD it is clear which is better.
  As far as new LPs today unless from a specialty house like Analog Productions they are Digital masters first. The main reason I own the Digital rig. Digital still has a way to go and that is where my money is going. The TT does its thing here playing LPs just not available on CD. Chew on that.


charles


Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: Nick B on September 08, 2020, 10:05:32 PM
Here is a reply I made to one of my friends (also a customer) concerning CD quality.  He, like me, agrees that CDs sound better than streamers.  Call us dinosaurs.  That is our story and we're sticking to it!  He is getting a new DAC and other goodies and I just built him an HDMI cable to try.

*****************

From Wiki -

"CD molding machines are specifically designed high temperature polycarbonate injection molders. They have an average throughput of 550-900 discs per hour, per molding line. Clear polycarbonate pellets are first dried at around 130 degrees Celsius for three hours (nominal; this depends on which optical grade resin is in use) and are fed via vacuum transport into one end of the injection molder's barrel (i.e., the feed throat) and are moved to the injection chamber via a large screw inside the barrel. The barrel, wrapped with heater bands ranging in temperature from ca 210 to 320 degrees Celsius melts the polycarbonate. When the mold is closed the screw moves forward to inject molten plastic into the mold cavity. When the mould is full, cool water running through mold halves, outside the cavity, cools the plastic so it somewhat solidifies. The entire process from the mould closing, injection and opening again takes approximately 3 to 5 seconds.

The molded "disc" (referred to as a 'green' disc, lacking final processing) is removed from the mold by vacuum handling; high-speed robot arms with vacuum suction caps. They are moved onto the finishing line infeed conveyor, or cooling station, in preparation for metallization. At this point the discs are clear and contain all the digital information desired; however, they cannot be played because there is no reflective layer.

The discs pass, one at a time, into the metallizer, a small chamber at approximately 10−3 Torr (130 mPa) vacuum. The process is called 'sputtering'. The metallizer contains a metal "target" – almost always an alloy of (mostly) aluminum and small amounts of other metals. There is a load-lock system (similar to an airlock) so the process chamber can be kept at high vacuum as the discs are exchanged. When the disc is rotated into the processing position by a swivel arm in the vacuum chamber, a small dose of argon gas is injected into the process chamber and a 700 volt DC electric current at up to 20 kW is applied to the target. This produces a plasma from the target, and the plasma vapour is deposited onto the disc; it is an anode-cathode transfer. The metal coats the data side of the disc (upper surface), covering the pit and lands. This metal layer is the reflective surface which can be seen on the reverse (non-label side) of a CD. This thin layer of metal is subject to corrosion from various contaminants and so is protected by a thin layer of lacquer.

CDs are printed in waterless offset.

After metallization, the discs pass on to a spin-coater, where UV curable lacquer is dispensed onto the newly metallized layer. By rapid spinning, the lacquer coats the entire disc with a very thin layer (approximately 5 to 10 μm[3]). After the lacquer is applied, the discs pass under a high-intensity UV lamp which cures the lacquer rapidly. The lacquer also provides a surface for a label, generally screen printed or offset printed. The printing ink(s) must be chemically compatible with the lacquer used. Markers used by consumers to write on blank surfaces can lead to breaks in the protective lacquer layer, which may lead to corrosion of the reflective layer, and failure of the CD.

************************

As with records, the quality of the stamper is paramount.  Much more so than with an analog record due to the magnitude of size. Get a CD from a first run and it wil KILL. Get one at the end of life of the stamper and it will, by definition, suck.  There are only ones and zeros (on/off) in the ADC and DAC brains.  The rest of the equation is prone to the weaknesses of all things analog.

What do you guys think?



   If wants to experience a "Master" CD then by all means purchase one from Blue Coast Recordings. I as well prefer a CD over streaming. Using a Innuos Zenith Mk3 with outboard USB re-clocker. It sounds great no question. However in a head to head comparison with the Aqua La Diva transport and Formula xHD DAC the transport has an edge. At this level of Digital the Server is so close I can easily listen without the desire for a CD. However when I do play the same on a CD it is clear which is better.
  As far as new LPs today unless from a specialty house like Analog Productions they are Digital masters first. The main reason I own the Digital rig. Digital still has a way to go and that is where my money is going. The TT does its thing here playing LPs just not available on CD. Chew on that.


charles

Ummm...will do
https://giphy.com/gifs/lol-eating-humor-2i06qrSENrXoc/tile
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: doug s. on September 09, 2020, 09:55:24 AM
dave, i have one question - was the ripped cd-r also cryo'd and demag'd?

thanks!

doug s.
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: P.I. on September 10, 2020, 10:21:52 AM
dave, i have one question - was the ripped cd-r also cryo'd and demag'd?

thanks!

doug s.
Yes and yes.  The stack of the Maxell black CD-R that I have were cryoed some years ago.  I demagged (demag'd - demaged - demagnetized or however it should be written ???) it after it was written.
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: Triode Pete on September 10, 2020, 03:51:48 PM
dave, i have one question - was the ripped cd-r also cryo'd and demag'd?

thanks!

doug s.
Yes and yes.  The stack of the Maxell black CD-R that I have were cried some years ago.  I demagged (demag'd - demaged - demagnetized or however it should be written ???) it after it was written.

Brother Dave,
Not to throw a "monkey wrench" into your analysis, but I've always found the "black" CD-R's to sound superior to the silver ones... just sayin'...  :shock:

Cheers,
Pete
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: P.I. on September 10, 2020, 09:48:14 PM

Brother Dave,
Not to throw a "monkey wrench" into your analysis, but I've always found the "black" CD-R's to sound superior to the silver ones... just sayin'...  :shock:

Cheers,
Pete
Not a wrench at all.  On my system, with my ears, me too.   :thumb:
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: dpatters on September 12, 2020, 07:47:25 AM
Just an fyi, I am the friend and customer that Dave mentioned previously that prefers spinning CDs vs streaming or listening to ripped files. I had purchased a dedicated music server with Roon, Tidal, and ripped all of my CDs to the hard drive. I used Tidal to find new music and it covered most of my vinyl collection. I have since gone back to spinning CDs and vinyl and I’m a happier camper. I’m using Jay’s Audio CD-2 MKII transport and the Jays Audio DAC Signature. I’m looking forward to getting Dave’s HDMI cable to take advantage of the I2S interface.

Don P
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: Triode Pete on September 12, 2020, 08:24:33 AM
Just an fyi, I am the friend and customer that Dave mentioned previously that prefers spinning CDs vs streaming or listening to ripped files. I had purchased a dedicated music server with Roon, Tidal, and ripped all of my CDs to the hard drive. I used Tidal to find new music and it covered most of my vinyl collection. I have since gone back to spinning CDs and vinyl and I’m a happier camper. I’m using Jay’s Audio CD-2 MKII transport and the Jays Audio DAC Signature. I’m looking forward to getting Dave’s HDMI cable to take advantage of the I2S interface.

Don P

Hi Don,
Yes, I agree with your assessment, especially if you were using Roon... Roon degrades the sound quality, even though the "experts" say it can't... Confirmed in-person over a year ago with some fellow audiophools... "If you got ears, you gotta listen!"

My $0.02,
Pete
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: P.I. on September 12, 2020, 12:11:17 PM
Just an fyi, I am the friend and customer that Dave mentioned previously that prefers spinning CDs vs streaming or listening to ripped files. I had purchased a dedicated music server with Roon, Tidal, and ripped all of my CDs to the hard drive. I used Tidal to find new music and it covered most of my vinyl collection. I have since gone back to spinning CDs and vinyl and I’m a happier camper. I’m using Jay’s Audio CD-2 MKII transport and the Jays Audio DAC Signature. I’m looking forward to getting Dave’s HDMI cable to take advantage of the I2S interface.

Don P
Well, you have been a victrim of my success.

I recently finished a rebuild of my cryo oven, part of which was a new seal system I came up with.  The method I use is a lossey one where the LN2 dissipates through a controlled leak.  I use a needle valve to adjust the boil off.  I put your cable in at the beginning of the week (Tuesday morning).  Before the upgrade it would take about 72 hours for the nitrogen to boil off.  It is finally ready today.  I'll be sending you a tracking number in a few minutes.  I'll be very interested to see what you hear.   :)

CD's are still the deal for me.  I use Tidal because I didn't care for Qobuz SQ and being clunky to use with a Mac.

Try to find one of the old RatSnack bulk tape demagnetizers.  It really does make a difference for the better.  Also, try using a static trearment on the label side of the CD and see what you think.  Out here in the dry SW static is a big issue...  Zzzzzorch!
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: dpatters on September 12, 2020, 12:38:08 PM
Thanks so much Dave! I have received tracking info. Still very humid here in PA. I’ll look into demag.

I think I’ll start a new thread on my experience so far with the Jays Audio stuff and my impressions of coax vs bnc vs hdmi.
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: P.I. on September 12, 2020, 05:07:02 PM
Thanks so much Dave! I have received tracking info. Still very humid here in PA. I’ll look into demag.

I think I’ll start a new thread on my experience so far with the Jays Audio stuff and my impressions of coax vs bnc vs hdmi.
Sounds like a plan.  Since I don’t have any audio devices that use HDMI you are a beta dude!

That Jays Audio gear looks great!
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: rollo on September 13, 2020, 08:54:49 AM
Just an fyi, I am the friend and customer that Dave mentioned previously that prefers spinning CDs vs streaming or listening to ripped files. I had purchased a dedicated music server with Roon, Tidal, and ripped all of my CDs to the hard drive. I used Tidal to find new music and it covered most of my vinyl collection. I have since gone back to spinning CDs and vinyl and I’m a happier camper. I’m using Jay’s Audio CD-2 MKII transport and the Jays Audio DAC Signature. I’m looking forward to getting Dave’s HDMI cable to take advantage of the I2S interface.

Don P

  Don I have been preaching that for some time. CDs using a dedicated transport just sounds better. Depending on ones server it can be really close however still no Cigar. I prefer Qobuz to Tidal in sound quality. Dislike Roons sound. Using iPeng remote instead. Is not your I2S connection Ethernet ?
  Aqua just came out with a dedicated server that Aqua feels equals their dedicated transport.  High res recorded in high rez is the only reason IMHo other than general listening a streamer is needed. There is not much music recorded in Hi-Rez other than SACD.
   Do not like at all upsampled anything. If recorded in DSD then OK. Still spinning those shinny discs.

charles
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: malloy on September 13, 2020, 09:42:41 AM
Finally got to listen to the 'correct' CDR Dave sent.

My impressions are a bit late, can't do an A/B/C and this is all from memory and based on my notes, but the CDR sounds even more focused than the #, with better instrument separation, making it easier to hear what's buried in the mix. But I think the most obvious difference for me is the bass. Everything sounds clearer.

Maybe I am not recalling the sound correctly, but the CDR's bass seems more impactful and the sound more dynamic?

Paul
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: dpatters on September 13, 2020, 09:45:12 AM
Hey Charles! I hope all is well with you. The I2S connection between the Jays DAC and transport is HDMI. A generic cable was shipped with it but I know it’s way too short in length for best sound. I am using Acoustic Zen Absolute Silver with rca connector. Tomorrow I’ll switch to Emprirical Audio with BNC connector. Dave’s HDMI cable is scheduled for delivery Wednesday. I’ll start a new topic on the DAC, transport, and my experience with the different cables end of next week.

Don P
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: P.I. on September 13, 2020, 04:40:29 PM
Finally got to listen to the 'correct' CDR Dave sent.

My impressions are a bit late, can't do an A/B/C and this is all from memory and based on my notes, but the CDR sounds even more focused than the #, with better instrument separation, making it easier to hear what's buried in the mix. But I think the most obvious difference for me is the bass. Everything sounds clearer.

Maybe I am not recalling the sound correctly, but the CDR's bass seems more impactful and the sound more dynamic?

Paul
That is how I hear CD-Rs with the special sauce, too.  The other most obvious difference is the decay of the notes.  With a note being: attack; sustain; release; decay - the micro dynamics in the room acoustic and reverb tails (natural or effected) contribute to a truer “they are here” or “you are there” illusion.  Once again it is the space between the notes that I always talk about.
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: P.I. on September 13, 2020, 04:43:28 PM
Hey Charles! I hope all is well with you. The I2S connection between the Jays DAC and transport is HDMI. A generic cable was shipped with it but I know it’s way too short in length for best sound. I am using Acoustic Zen Absolute Silver with rca connector. Tomorrow I’ll switch to Emprirical Audio with BNC connector. Dave’s HDMI cable is scheduled for delivery Wednesday. I’ll start a new topic on the DAC, transport, and my experience with the different cables end of next week.

Don P
Be sure to try the HDMI cable with both orientations.  I forgot to include a directional arrow label, so be sure to mark the cable so you will know the best orientation.
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: rollo on September 14, 2020, 01:28:14 PM
Hey Charles! I hope all is well with you. The I2S connection between the Jays DAC and transport is HDMI. A generic cable was shipped with it but I know it’s way too short in length for best sound. I am using Acoustic Zen Absolute Silver with rca connector. Tomorrow I’ll switch to Emprirical Audio with BNC connector. Dave’s HDMI cable is scheduled for delivery Wednesday. I’ll start a new topic on the DAC, transport, and my experience with the different cables end of next week.

Don P


 Cool. Did not know HDMI was used for I2S connection. My set up uses Ethernet cable. I use TWL . What a cable. Looking forward to your posts.

charles
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: P.I. on September 14, 2020, 04:54:46 PM
Hey Charles! I hope all is well with you. The I2S connection between the Jays DAC and transport is HDMI. A generic cable was shipped with it but I know it’s way too short in length for best sound. I am using Acoustic Zen Absolute Silver with rca connector. Tomorrow I’ll switch to Emprirical Audio with BNC connector. Dave’s HDMI cable is scheduled for delivery Wednesday. I’ll start a new topic on the DAC, transport, and my experience with the different cables end of next week.

Don P


 Cool. Did not know HDMI was used for I2S connection. My set up uses Ethernet cable. I use TWL . What a cable. Looking forward to your posts.

charles
Yes, the TWL cable is a killer for the $$$.

 :thumb:

I'll be very interested to see what my new HDMI cable brings to the table... if anything. 

Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: tmazz on September 14, 2020, 08:39:08 PM
Just an fyi, I am the friend and customer that Dave mentioned previously that prefers spinning CDs vs streaming or listening to ripped files. I had purchased a dedicated music server with Roon, Tidal, and ripped all of my CDs to the hard drive. I used Tidal to find new music and it covered most of my vinyl collection. I have since gone back to spinning CDs and vinyl and I’m a happier camper. I’m using Jay’s Audio CD-2 MKII transport and the Jays Audio DAC Signature. I’m looking forward to getting Dave’s HDMI cable to take advantage of the I2S interface.

Don P

  Don I have been preaching that for some time. CDs using a dedicated transport just sounds better. Depending on ones server it can be really close however still no Cigar. I prefer Qobuz to Tidal in sound quality. Dislike Roons sound. Using iPeng remote instead. Is not your I2S connection Ethernet ?
  Aqua just came out with a dedicated server that Aqua feels equals their dedicated transport.  High res recorded in high rez is the only reason IMHo other than general listening a streamer is needed. There is not much music recorded in Hi-Rez other than SACD.
   Do not like at all upsampled anything. If recorded in DSD then OK. Still spinning those shinny discs.

charles

The only advantage to oversampling I’d that with the high over sample bit rate the quantizing noise is shifted up high in frequency which allow the day designed to use a lower slope output filter which introduces less phase shifts that the filter required for a NOS system. This idea came about in th every early days of CDs and since then filter designs have gotten much better so now we can have single and over sampled days that both sound quite good.  Of course we must always keep in mind that even thought an oversampled signal runs at a higher bit rate it cannot provide any more resolution that the original no’s signal since it does not carry any more data, just the same data written multiple times.
Title: Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
Post by: dpatters on September 21, 2020, 11:43:23 AM
Hey Charles! I hope all is well with you. The I2S connection between the Jays DAC and transport is HDMI. A generic cable was shipped with it but I know it’s way too short in length for best sound. I am using Acoustic Zen Absolute Silver with rca connector. Tomorrow I’ll switch to Emprirical Audio with BNC connector. Dave’s HDMI cable is scheduled for delivery Wednesday. I’ll start a new topic on the DAC, transport, and my experience with the different cables end of next week.

Don P


 Cool. Did not know HDMI was used for I2S connection. My set up uses Ethernet cable. I use TWL . What a cable. Looking forward to your posts.

charles
Yes, the TWL cable is a killer for the $$$.

 :thumb:

I'll be very interested to see what my new HDMI cable brings to the table... if anything. 



The HDMI/I2S connection is the icing on the cake. Much preferred over coax

Don P