AudioNervosa

Electro Stimulation Ward => Signals and Noise => Power Cables => Topic started by: pursuitofnow on May 04, 2019, 07:23:57 AM

Title: TWL Obsession or HP Digital American for PS Audio Directstream Dac?
Post by: pursuitofnow on May 04, 2019, 07:23:57 AM
What would the difference be between the Triode Wire Labs Obsession compared to the HP Digital American for a PS Audio Directstream Dac? Would it be noticeable?
Title: Re: TWL Obsession or HP Digital American for PS Audio Directstream Dac?
Post by: Triode Pete on May 07, 2019, 06:26:31 AM
Hello Jim,
Both are superb choices for your PS Audio Directstream DAC.

The "Obsession NCF", with the crazy expensive FI-50 NCF series of connectors ($385 & up EACH!), has 20% more conductors than the already beefy "High Power Digital American".

The "Obsession NCF" will provide a bit more deeper bass response and a bit more airy & effortless highs, while still remaining balanced. Depth of recordings will appear deeper & wider, while still focused...

I hope this helps...

Cheers,
Pete
Title: Re: TWL Obsession or HP Digital American for PS Audio Directstream Dac?
Post by: pursuitofnow on May 07, 2019, 07:12:08 AM
Thanks, Pete. That does help. I now see why you named it the Obsession :)
Title: Re: TWL Obsession or HP Digital American for PS Audio Directstream Dac?
Post by: doug s. on May 08, 2019, 07:31:06 AM
What would the difference be between the Triode Wire Labs Obsession compared to the HP Digital American for a PS Audio Directstream Dac? Would it be noticeable?
$700.  the main difference.  if you can hear a difference in a controlled evaluation, i will eat my power cord.  8)

doug s.
Title: Re: TWL Obsession or HP Digital American for PS Audio Directstream Dac?
Post by: Triode Pete on May 08, 2019, 10:59:13 AM
What would the difference be between the Triode Wire Labs Obsession compared to the HP Digital American for a PS Audio Directstream Dac? Would it be noticeable?
$700.  the main difference.  if you can hear a difference in a controlled evaluation, i will eat my power cord.  8)

doug s.

"If you got ears, you gotta listen!"... Captain Beefheart, aka Don Van Vliet

I'm am not starting a flame war, but EVERYONE who has heard the "Obsession NCF" compared to variety of power cords could hear a distinct DIFFERENCE. As different as changing an amp or preamp or DAC!!! If you can't hear the difference between components, you would not hear the difference between power cords...

Cheers,
Pete
Title: Re: TWL Obsession or HP Digital American for PS Audio Directstream Dac?
Post by: BobM on May 08, 2019, 11:11:24 AM
It's all irrelevant Doug - we all know that cords can't possibly make a difference in an audio system.

 :p
Title: Re: TWL Obsession or HP Digital American for PS Audio Directstream Dac?
Post by: doug s. on May 08, 2019, 11:23:55 AM
What would the difference be between the Triode Wire Labs Obsession compared to the HP Digital American for a PS Audio Directstream Dac? Would it be noticeable?
$700.  the main difference.  if you can hear a difference in a controlled evaluation, i will eat my power cord.  8)

doug s.

"If you got ears, you gotta listen!"... Captain Beefheart, aka Don Van Vliet

I'm am not starting a flame war, but EVERYONE who has heard the "Obsession NCF" compared to variety of power cords could hear a distinct DIFFERENCE. As different as changing an amp or preamp or DAC!!! If you can't hear the difference between components, you would not hear the difference between power cords...

Cheers,
Pete
not trying to start a flame war either.  but, my experiences have been different.  and i also believe a competent engineer should be able to design a p/c that's as good as it gets - with connectors included - for less than the price of a single furutech obscenity.  i believe these products are marketed to people who simply like their stuff ludicrously expensive, regardless of sound.

i can hear differences between components. i can hear differences between $10 p/c's and $100 p/c's (if the $100 p/c's are good.)  beyond that, i am happy to say that if there are any differences, they're either too small to be relevant, or no better or worse, just different.  if my ears aren't that refined, thank dog for that.  i'm just after excellent sound,  not into spending absurd sums of cash chasing the unobtainable holy grail. ;)

if anyone has $1400 - or even $700 - and wants to buy a p/c w/that, that's their business.  and more power to them, if it makes them happy.  but i will stand by my prior statement.  it may make them feel better, but it won't give them better sound - imo of course.

ymmv,

doug s.
Title: Re: TWL Obsession or HP Digital American for PS Audio Directstream Dac?
Post by: mdconnelly on May 08, 2019, 01:33:57 PM
My 2 cents worth... I've heard many different power cords over the years and never really had a difficult time hearing differences.    I DID have a more difficult time learning what sounded better (my system, my ears).   After I got a chance to use Pete's HPDA power cords, I decided to stop chasing that ever-elusive "best" power cord.   

Would i find the Obsessions sound even better?    Hmmm, probably, but the price difference can keep me in fine bourbon for quite awhile.   

Title: Re: TWL Obsession or HP Digital American for PS Audio Directstream Dac?
Post by: P.I. on May 08, 2019, 11:19:56 PM
What would the difference be between the Triode Wire Labs Obsession compared to the HP Digital American for a PS Audio Directstream Dac? Would it be noticeable?
$700.  the main difference.  if you can hear a difference in a controlled evaluation, i will eat my power cord.  8)

doug s.
what condiments would you prefer?   8)

Title: Re: TWL Obsession or HP Digital American for PS Audio Directstream Dac?
Post by: tmazz on May 08, 2019, 11:24:15 PM
What would the difference be between the Triode Wire Labs Obsession compared to the HP Digital American for a PS Audio Directstream Dac? Would it be noticeable?
$700.  the main difference.  if you can hear a difference in a controlled evaluation, i will eat my power cord.  8)

doug s.
what condiments would you prefer?   8)

Damn, you beat me to it.... and only by a few minutes.  ;)
Title: Re: TWL Obsession or HP Digital American for PS Audio Directstream Dac?
Post by: doug s. on May 09, 2019, 07:18:16 AM
What would the difference be between the Triode Wire Labs Obsession compared to the HP Digital American for a PS Audio Directstream Dac? Would it be noticeable?
$700.  the main difference.  if you can hear a difference in a controlled evaluation, i will eat my power cord.  8)

doug s.
what condiments would you prefer?   8)

Damn, you beat me to it.... and only by a few minutes.  ;)
sorry, if there are meaningful sonic improvements in properly designed power cords, then there's something else wrong somewhere.  either equipment or incoming power, or something.

doug s.
Title: Re: TWL Obsession or HP Digital American for PS Audio Directstream Dac?
Post by: BobM on May 09, 2019, 09:28:53 AM
Doug - try an upgraded power cord on your TV. What you see will surprise you, then talk about how it can't make a difference on a stereo.
Title: Re: TWL Obsession or HP Digital American for PS Audio Directstream Dac?
Post by: doug s. on May 09, 2019, 09:42:39 AM
Doug - try an upgraded power cord on your TV. What you see will surprise you, then talk about how it can't make a difference on a stereo.
that means i'd have to get a tv.   8)

doug s.
Title: Re: TWL Obsession or HP Digital American for PS Audio Directstream Dac?
Post by: P.I. on May 09, 2019, 09:55:25 AM
What would the difference be between the Triode Wire Labs Obsession compared to the HP Digital American for a PS Audio Directstream Dac? Would it be noticeable?
$700.  the main difference.  if you can hear a difference in a controlled evaluation, i will eat my power cord.  8)

doug s.
what condiments would you prefer?   8)

Damn, you beat me to it.... and only by a few minutes.  ;)
sorry, if there are meaningful sonic improvements in properly designed power cords, then there's something else wrong somewhere.  either equipment or incoming power, or something.

doug s.
Cables are best designed by filter and transmission line theory.  It is the power that is wrong, not 'necessarily' the gear.

Todays power grids are sewers. The induction and imprintation of noise on the AC grid is continuing to degrade the waveform and unbalanced lines are going to be continuing to degrade in the future.  60Hz AC with a clean waverform went away at the beginning of the electronics age and went into the toilet with the advent of cellphone communication.

The only way to think of a high performance power cable is to consider it the first stage of the power supply, which in reality it is.
Title: Re: TWL Obsession or HP Digital American for PS Audio Directstream Dac?
Post by: doug s. on May 09, 2019, 10:00:14 AM
What would the difference be between the Triode Wire Labs Obsession compared to the HP Digital American for a PS Audio Directstream Dac? Would it be noticeable?
$700.  the main difference.  if you can hear a difference in a controlled evaluation, i will eat my power cord.  8)

doug s.
what condiments would you prefer?   8)

Damn, you beat me to it.... and only by a few minutes.  ;)
sorry, if there are meaningful sonic improvements in properly designed power cords, then there's something else wrong somewhere.  either equipment or incoming power, or something.

doug s.
Cables are best designed by filter and transmission line theory.  It is the power that is wrong, not necessarily the gear.

Todays power grids are sewers. The induction and imprintation of noise on the AC grid is continuing to degrade the waveform and unbalanced lines are going to be continuing to degrade in the future.  60Hz AC with a clean waverform went away at the beginning of the electronics age and went into the toilet with the advent of cellphone communication.
that's why i use isolation transformers and balanced power isolation transformers on my gear.

quite a few years ago, i noticed the improvement in the sound of my digital gear when i used a separate isolation transformer on my transport and another separate one on my dac.  i am not totally insensitive to power issues, nor am i totally deaf.

doug s.
Title: Re: TWL Obsession or HP Digital American for PS Audio Directstream Dac?
Post by: tmazz on May 09, 2019, 10:41:07 AM

Todays power grids are sewers. The induction and imprintation of noise on the AC grid is continuing to degrade the waveform and unbalanced lines are going to be continuing to degrade in the future.  60Hz AC with a clean waverform went away at the beginning of the electronics age and went into the toilet with the advent of cellphone communication.


Not to mention the garbage that is getting injected back into the grid by all of those rooftop solar systems with cheap crappy inverters.  :roll:
Title: Re: TWL Obsession or HP Digital American for PS Audio Directstream Dac?
Post by: P.I. on May 09, 2019, 03:02:59 PM

that's why i use isolation transformers and balanced power isolation transformers on my gear.

quite a few years ago, i noticed the improvement in the sound of my digital gear when i used a separate isolation transformer on my transport and another separate one on my dac.  i am not totally insensitive to power issues, nor am i totally deaf.

doug s.
[/quote]The problem that I have with iso TX is their output impedance and inherent current limiting.

I had a 2.5KVA Topaz Ultra that now belongs to another person on this forum.  Bass was lethargic, lacked slam and lacked the inner detail that makes 'IT' for me.  Highs were colored, lacked a steep rise time and cymbals lacked the harmonic series that gives them the air that makes percussion special.
Title: Re: TWL Obsession or HP Digital American for PS Audio Directstream Dac?
Post by: pursuitofnow on May 09, 2019, 09:32:30 PM
What would the difference be between the Triode Wire Labs Obsession compared to the HP Digital American for a PS Audio Directstream Dac? Would it be noticeable?
$700.  the main difference.  if you can hear a difference in a controlled evaluation, i will eat my power cord.  8)

doug s.

"If you got ears, you gotta listen!"... Captain Beefheart, aka Don Van Vliet

I'm am not starting a flame war, but EVERYONE who has heard the "Obsession NCF" compared to variety of power cords could hear a distinct DIFFERENCE. As different as changing an amp or preamp or DAC!!! If you can't hear the difference between components, you would not hear the difference between power cords...

Cheers,
Pete
not trying to start a flame war either.  but, my experiences have been different.  and i also believe a competent engineer should be able to design a p/c that's as good as it gets - with connectors included - for less than the price of a single furutech obscenity.  i believe these products are marketed to people who simply like their stuff ludicrously expensive, regardless of sound.

i can hear differences between components. i can hear differences between $10 p/c's and $100 p/c's (if the $100 p/c's are good.)  beyond that, i am happy to say that if there are any differences, they're either too small to be relevant, or no better or worse, just different.  if my ears aren't that refined, thank dog for that.  i'm just after excellent sound,  not into spending absurd sums of cash chasing the unobtainable holy grail. ;)

if anyone has $1400 - or even $700 - and wants to buy a p/c w/that, that's their business.  and more power to them, if it makes them happy.  but i will stand by my prior statement.  it may make them feel better, but it won't give them better sound - imo of course.

ymmv,

doug s.

Hey Doug, has your experience included either of the cables mentioned from Triode Wire Labs?
Title: Re: TWL Obsession or HP Digital American for PS Audio Directstream Dac?
Post by: doug s. on May 10, 2019, 08:36:52 AM

that's why i use isolation transformers and balanced power isolation transformers on my gear.

quite a few years ago, i noticed the improvement in the sound of my digital gear when i used a separate isolation transformer on my transport and another separate one on my dac.  i am not totally insensitive to power issues, nor am i totally deaf.

doug s.
The problem that I have with iso TX is their output impedance and inherent current limiting.

I had a 2.5KVA Topaz Ultra that now belongs to another person on this forum.  Bass was lethargic, lacked slam and lacked the inner detail that makes 'IT' for me.  Highs were colored, lacked a steep rise time and cymbals lacked the harmonic series that gives them the air that makes percussion special.
my experience w/isolation transformers has not been the same.  i use a large balanced power transformer for my amps and active x-over, and a smaller one for my preamp and analog sources. all digital gear gets smaller isolation transformers, plugged into the balanced transformer serving the preamp.  top to bottom, the sound is extended, clean, dynamic, airy and smooth.  w/a pair of vmps larger subs, i have real low end...

doug s.
Title: Re: TWL Obsession or HP Digital American for PS Audio Directstream Dac?
Post by: doug s. on May 10, 2019, 08:37:56 AM
What would the difference be between the Triode Wire Labs Obsession compared to the HP Digital American for a PS Audio Directstream Dac? Would it be noticeable?
$700.  the main difference.  if you can hear a difference in a controlled evaluation, i will eat my power cord.  8)

doug s.

"If you got ears, you gotta listen!"... Captain Beefheart, aka Don Van Vliet

I'm am not starting a flame war, but EVERYONE who has heard the "Obsession NCF" compared to variety of power cords could hear a distinct DIFFERENCE. As different as changing an amp or preamp or DAC!!! If you can't hear the difference between components, you would not hear the difference between power cords...

Cheers,
Pete
not trying to start a flame war either.  but, my experiences have been different.  and i also believe a competent engineer should be able to design a p/c that's as good as it gets - with connectors included - for less than the price of a single furutech obscenity.  i believe these products are marketed to people who simply like their stuff ludicrously expensive, regardless of sound.

i can hear differences between components. i can hear differences between $10 p/c's and $100 p/c's (if the $100 p/c's are good.)  beyond that, i am happy to say that if there are any differences, they're either too small to be relevant, or no better or worse, just different.  if my ears aren't that refined, thank dog for that.  i'm just after excellent sound,  not into spending absurd sums of cash chasing the unobtainable holy grail. ;)

if anyone has $1400 - or even $700 - and wants to buy a p/c w/that, that's their business.  and more power to them, if it makes them happy.  but i will stand by my prior statement.  it may make them feel better, but it won't give them better sound - imo of course.

ymmv,

doug s.

Hey Doug, has your experience included either of the cables mentioned from Triode Wire Labs?
nope, not going to happen, at those prices.  even if i won the lottery, it wouldn't happen.

doug s.
Title: Re: TWL Obsession or HP Digital American for PS Audio Directstream Dac?
Post by: rollo on May 10, 2019, 12:14:31 PM
   So finally the real reason, PRICE. At least you admit to being a cheapskate.  :lol: :rofl:



charles
Title: Re: TWL Obsession or HP Digital American for PS Audio Directstream Dac?
Post by: doug s. on May 10, 2019, 12:33:24 PM
   So finally the real reason, PRICE. At least you admit to being a cheapskate.  :lol: :rofl:

charles
charlie, you weren't paying attention.  price is the real reason, yes - and i made that point from the outset.  and it's not just that i am cheap, (which i am), but i refuse to spend money when it doesn't gain me anything.  i am not much into bling...   8)

doug s.
Title: Re: TWL Obsession or HP Digital American for PS Audio Directstream Dac?
Post by: Triode Pete on May 10, 2019, 01:26:55 PM
   So finally the real reason, PRICE. At least you admit to being a cheapskate.  :lol: :rofl:

charles
charlie, you weren't paying attention.  price is the real reason, yes - and i made that point from the outset.  and it's not just that i am cheap, (which i am), but i refuse to spend money when it doesn't gain me anything.  i am not much into bling...   8)

doug s.

Doug,
Really? Doesn't gain anything???? How do you know??? You NEVER even tried one of my power cords! How on earth can you make a statement like that?

This reminds of the Cable Naysayers in a NYC audio club. They will bash audiophile cables all day, without ever trying them, since they know better, since they know ALL the rules of physics & science... They are considered the "flat earth society" and their systems sound that way as well... To each, his own!

Rant over,
Pete
Title: Re: TWL Obsession or HP Digital American for PS Audio Directstream Dac?
Post by: P.I. on May 10, 2019, 01:54:03 PM
   So finally the real reason, PRICE. At least you admit to being a cheapskate.  :lol: :rofl:

charles
charlie, you weren't paying attention.  price is the real reason, yes - and i made that point from the outset.  and it's not just that i am cheap, (which i am), but i refuse to spend money when it doesn't gain me anything.  i am not much into bling...   8)

doug s.

Doug,
Really? Doesn't gain anything???? How do you know??? You NEVER even tried one of my power cords! How on earth can you make a statement like that?

This reminds of the Cable Naysayers in a NYC audio club. They will bash audiophile cables all day, without ever trying them, since they know better, since they know ALL the rules of physics & science... They are considered the "flat earth society" and their systems sound that way as well... To each, his own!

Rant over,
Pete
:thumb:

Pete, that is always the way.  :rofl:

I get lifelong EEs from Sandia National Labs into my room and they come in saying "It can't" and leave shaking their heads saying "I don't understand why that made that big of a difference".  The books don't teach what happens in the quantum realm concerning electrical properties and that is where it all starts.  Add to all of the things that are important besides LCR and one can 'begin' to understand the HOW it works.  From electrostriction to magnetic fields to material characteristics and everything in between.

I'd start another cable tour, but the last one ended up with me taking an almost $2K loss because of people that didn't return cables.  That sucked.  I was stupid because I made the assumption that there exists ethics and honor among like minded (to a point) audiophools.  The only fool was me.   :duh
Title: Re: TWL Obsession or HP Digital American for PS Audio Directstream Dac?
Post by: doug s. on May 10, 2019, 03:56:57 PM
   So finally the real reason, PRICE. At least you admit to being a cheapskate.  :lol: :rofl:

charles
charlie, you weren't paying attention.  price is the real reason, yes - and i made that point from the outset.  and it's not just that i am cheap, (which i am), but i refuse to spend money when it doesn't gain me anything.  i am not much into bling...   8)

doug s.

Doug,
Really? Doesn't gain anything???? How do you know??? You NEVER even tried one of my power cords! How on earth can you make a statement like that?

This reminds of the Cable Naysayers in a NYC audio club. They will bash audiophile cables all day, without ever trying them, since they know better, since they know ALL the rules of physics & science... They are considered the "flat earth society" and their systems sound that way as well... To each, his own!

Rant over,
Pete
:thumb:

Pete, that is always the way.  :rofl:

I get lifelong EEs from Sandia National Labs into my room and they come in saying "It can't" and leave shaking their heads saying "I don't understand why that made that big of a difference".  The books don't teach what happens in the quantum realm concerning electrical properties and that is where it all starts.  Add to all of the things that are important besides LCR and one can 'begin' to understand the HOW it works.  From electrostriction to magnetic fields to material characteristics and everything in between.

I'd start another cable tour, but the last one ended up with me taking an almost $2K loss because of people that didn't return cables.  That sucked.  I was stupid because I made the assumption that there exists ethics and honor among like minded (to a point) audiophools.  The only fool was me.   :duh
while i am not big on expensive power cords, i can say that i am big on ethics; i have taken part in equipment tours, and have never not returned anything.  it's baffling that folks would do that.  :shock:

but i suggest that if you ever decide to do a tour in the future, you get a verifiable credit card # first, before you let anyone receive any of your trial equipment.  that way, you are protected. 

doug s.
Title: Re: TWL Obsession or HP Digital American for PS Audio Directstream Dac?
Post by: doug s. on May 10, 2019, 04:11:11 PM
Doug,
Really? Doesn't gain anything???? How do you know??? You NEVER even tried one of my power cords! How on earth can you make a statement like that?

This reminds of the Cable Naysayers in a NYC audio club. They will bash audiophile cables all day, without ever trying them, since they know better, since they know ALL the rules of physics & science... They are considered the "flat earth society" and their systems sound that way as well... To each, his own!

Rant over,
Pete
pete, no need to rant.  there are plenty of folks who love your stuff.  obviously.  just because i am not interested in spending my money on expensive wire, doesn't mean there isn't a place for you and your product.

i actually hear quite well.  and i have "decent" cords, (most are recommended "budget specials"), and i have tried friend's/relative's more spendy cords, and i simply have not heard anything that would make me want to "upgrade". 

maybe it's because of my power conditioners.  maybe it's because i simply have way too many things going on - separate linestage, active x-over, main amp w/two power cords, subwoofer amps, internet tuna, analog tuna(s), turntable, phono stage, cd transport, cd dac, internet tuna dac, cd tube buffer, dbx 3bx, balanced power x-formers, isolation x-formers....  (or maybe it's because my power conditioners suck so much life out of my system, i may as well use $5 cords.  ha!  ;))  even at "only" $100 per power cord, i probably still have more money in them than most average folk have in their entire system. 

doug s.
Title: Re: TWL Obsession or HP Digital American for PS Audio Directstream Dac?
Post by: Triode Pete on May 10, 2019, 05:21:53 PM
Doug,
Really? Doesn't gain anything???? How do you know??? You NEVER even tried one of my power cords! How on earth can you make a statement like that?

This reminds of the Cable Naysayers in a NYC audio club. They will bash audiophile cables all day, without ever trying them, since they know better, since they know ALL the rules of physics & science... They are considered the "flat earth society" and their systems sound that way as well... To each, his own!

Rant over,
Pete
pete, no need to rant.  there are plenty of folks who love your stuff.  obviously.  just because i am not interested in spending my money on expensive wire, doesn't mean there isn't a place for you and your product.

i actually hear quite well.  and i have "decent" cords, (most are recommended "budget specials"), and i have tried friend's/relative's more spendy cords, and i simply have not heard anything that would make me want to "upgrade". 

maybe it's because of my power conditioners.  maybe it's because i simply have way too many things going on - separate linestage, active x-over, main amp w/two power cords, subwoofer amps, internet tuna, analog tuna(s), turntable, phono stage, cd transport, cd dac, internet tuna dac, cd tube buffer, dbx 3bx, balanced power x-formers, isolation x-formers....  (or maybe it's because my power conditioners suck so much life out of my system, i may as well use $5 cords.  ha!  ;))  even at "only" $100 per power cord, i probably still have more money in them than most average folk have in their entire system. 

doug s.

No worries, Doug!

Have a great weekend,
Pete
Title: Re: TWL Obsession or HP Digital American for PS Audio Directstream Dac?
Post by: P.I. on May 11, 2019, 09:27:53 AM

[/quote]
while i am not big on expensive power cords, i can say that i am big on ethics; i have taken part in equipment tours, and have never not returned anything.  it's baffling that folks would do that.  :shock:

but i suggest that if you ever decide to do a tour in the future, you get a verifiable credit card # first, before you let anyone receive any of your trial equipment.  that way, you are protected. 

doug s.
[/quote]


"A man without ethics or a conscience is not a man at all" to quote my Dad.

I was shocked, too.  The only problem with getting a CC number is the ease with which a thief can cancel the charge these days.  Made me sad and determined not to ever do that again.

I did a similar tour of a cried CD to another identical one - bought from the same bin at the store.  The first few reviews were easily identified as to the cry version.  After that the feedback became mixed and then there were null tests.  When I got them back they looked like they had been walked on with golf shoes.   :roll: