I've Got Some SET Amp Questions...

[rollo]

   The GM 70 tube for SET is my kind of tube. Delicate and powerfull in sound. Inexpensive to buy and maintain.
    For me personally Just gave up on SET. Have been using a 211 based Consonance Cyber mono blocks for quite some time. Modded to the hilt it sounded glorious. However finding 211 NOS tubes are getting very expensive and rare. RCA and United NOS tubes are just cost prohibitive, if you can find them. The Chinese stuff IMO is not worth the money.
    Then came along class "D" hybrid. Gave up on SET after 10 years. Why ? The sound of the class "D" equaled and bettered the SET. Presence and clarity without excessive coloration is what did it for me. The romantic midrange is addictive with SET for sure no argument there. Bass another story. Plump not accurate. Now if likes that great again no argument.
     Just something to consider. As you know and I know it is your experience that counts. Personal taste cannot be argued with. Just make sure it is what you want before taking the plunge.
      The AMP BTW are Arion.

charles
   

     

[Triode Pete]

       For me personally Just gave up on SET. Have been using a 211 based Consonance Cyber mono blocks for quite some time.          

charles    

My $0.02... Sir Charles - you just needed to get better SET monoblocks, ones with really good OPT's (Tango, Tamura, Audio Note) and beefier power supplies... and keep "Mr. Cyclops" out of the chassis with his sausage fingers... 

Pete

[topround]

I agree, the Chinese might be great for the money bit I can't imagine Class D replacing SET's in a system that was designed for SET's.
I also agree NOS tubes have become ridiculous in price and I know look for gear with as little tubes as possible, I will not be taken advantage of anymore.

High efficiency speakers were designed for amps that have little power, simple designs that deliver a purer sound, how an arc welder of a SS design or chip amp replaces that reasoning I don't understand.
If you have 84 db efficient speakers than sure use chip amps that produce lots of power and I am sure you can great great sound, but arc welders on horns just doesn't make sense to me.

James is using Bryston amps, he wants to try low power tubes.
God bless him, only bad thing is good SET is expensive and Charles the dehavilland GM70 may be a good match for him!

Mike

[Face]

High efficiency speakers were designed for amps that have little power, simple designs that deliver a purer sound, how an arc welder of a SS design or chip amp replaces that reasoning I don't understand.
If you have 84 db efficient speakers than sure use chip amps that produce lots of power and I am sure you can great great sound, but arc welders on horns just doesn't make sense to me.

Speakers designed for use with low powered tube amps generally have different bass alignments, making them sound thin with an "arc welder" type amp, but full with a SET or similar design.  Vice versa for low efficiency, full range speakers, which is why they can sound boomy and flabby with a SET amp.

As far as horns and arc welders, I don't see an issue there, talk about dynamics.   

[richidoo]

The flat impedance curve of the Crescendo really benefits SETs. They have low damping so they don't tolerate wild impedance curves. Robert will also know that a truly tube friendly speaker's phase is largely positive angle, making a resistive load for the amp. Negative angle is a capacitive load which tubes don't like.
http://komkris2000.webs.com/The%20story%20of%20Tube%20Friendly%20Speakers.pdf

Many speakers with roller coaster impedance curves are really intended (deliberately or not) for SS amps with low output impedance and huge electrical damping. Such a speaker is not well behaved, it is not self damping. It needs a firm hand on the tiller from class D is for Daddy, who's your daddy you little punk?

It is much easier to make a speaker sound good when impedance doesn't matter, so that has become the norm, but you are limited by the talent of the SS amp designer. Not all ss amps are a perfect voltage source to ignore the impedance. Wimpy power supplies can't deliver current and the damping falls down. With any transistor amp, linear or class D you miss out on the potentially transcendent sound quality of a DHT or SET. When the speakers are high enough sensitivity you will hear the difference. Charles Altmann used to say that his little 5W battery amp was inappropriate "for a 85dB speaker, but who would ever want to listen to music on that anyway?" It is true, the less sensitive speakers leave a lot of love on the table. That's why I think people go apeshit over horns despite the tonal aberrations of the badly designed horns, it's because you really can see the singers tonsils with 110dB and 1W triode.

But the low sensitivity hifi speakers have their own charm in filtering out all that distracting audiophile crap and leaving only "the music."

[DaveC]

   The GM 70 tube for SET is my kind of tube. Delicate and powerfull in sound. Inexpensive to buy and maintain.
    For me personally Just gave up on SET. Have been using a 211 based Consonance Cyber mono blocks for quite some time. Modded to the hilt it sounded glorious. However finding 211 NOS tubes are getting very expensive and rare. RCA and United NOS tubes are just cost prohibitive, if you can find them. The Chinese stuff IMO is not worth the money.
    Then came along class "D" hybrid. Gave up on SET after 10 years. Why ? The sound of the class "D" equaled and bettered the SET. Presence and clarity without excessive coloration is what did it for me. The romantic midrange is addictive with SET for sure no argument there. Bass another story. Plump not accurate. Now if likes that great again no argument.
     Just something to consider. As you know and I know it is your experience that counts. Personal taste cannot be argued with. Just make sure it is what you want before taking the plunge.
      The AMP BTW are Arion.

charles
   

     

You had a bad SET amp or poor speaker/amp synergy.

[Hugh]

Don't count the Chinese tubes out.

[rollo]

  Boys, boys do not misunderstand me. I love SET sound. Done right.
   Dave, you are correct that the speaker [ Pipedreams] had a better synergy with the Arions. The SET was really good but in direct comparison did not hold a candle to the Arions.
    THE GTA Audio Works sounded fantastic with the Arions compared to The Bryston amp on hand. As well with Analysis, Lenehan, Maggies and Apogee.
     I would love to compare the Arions to Pete's SET amp on da horns. A learning experience for all. Good or bad.
     The Cyber amps as well to Pete's amps. Only a direct comparison will tell all, not assumptions.
      We get all the air, decay and midrange glory with the Arions without lack of bass or coloration.
       Is one format better than the other ? I say no just different. Wether one likes he differences either way s a winner.
       For years we were enamored by the SET sound and still are. However new designs about these days are seriously challenging old school thoughts.
    So all I'm saying is give these new designs a chance. Ya never now if that "arc welder" will do until you try. Mike if you have the Rave with Gary's speakers the Arions just may change your mind.
   So Pete are ya game ?? Hugh I'm talking 211s not all Chinese tube, my bad.
    Over the years accuracy over coloration has taken me over. NO amp fits all. THE OP IMO should experience all that is available before a purchase is made, that's all.

charles




       

[Triode Pete]

       I would love to compare the Arions to Pete's SET amp on da horns. A learning experience for all. Good or bad.
     The Cyber amps as well to Pete's amps. Only a direct comparison will tell all, not assumptions.
     
       
    So all I'm saying is give these new designs a chance.    So Pete are ya game ??

charles

Ok, Charles, it's time to expose the flaws of your amps, especially at the milliwatt range. In my system, the first watt is by far the most important watt! I wouldn't bother bringing the Consonance 211's... Gotta feeling they'll be too noisy (hum). I spent over a decade trying find the right amp (tube push-pull, SETs, solid state, etc.) until I found the right combo for my ears with dead silence between notes & scary dynamics..

C'mon over!

Pete

[bhobba]

Boys, boys do not misunderstand me. I love SET sound. Done right.  Dave, you are correct that the speaker [ Pipedreams] had a better synergy with the Arions. The SET was really good but in direct comparison did not hold a candle to the Arions.

I agree entirely.

I loved and still love my Trafomatic Experience 2 SET.  Virtually everyone that hears it likes it, even people who dont like valve amps.  For some reason it has drive that makes it sound like a 20-25W amp and not its puny 8W.  A number of valve guys bought their valve amps over to compare it and all left very impressed.  It has a slight edge to me over my other favorite valve amp a Leben 300XS but its a bit different.

However in every way my Arions, upgraded to use Duelunds, simply blows it away.  State of the art smoothness but also state of the art dynamics and transients - a highly additive combination.  To me the Arion doesn't sound solid state or valve, it sounds real.

Set your prejudices aside and simply have a listen.

Thanks
Bill

[richidoo]

Pete, what are your amps? Something custom, I think? Did you build them? thanks

[topround]

Lets be honest here..

who sells these amps, and who has something to gain?, didn't we learn anything from the Ncore debacle?

[rollo]

Lets be honest here..

who sells these amps, and who has something to gain?, didn't we learn anything from the Ncore debacle?

    Honest ?? Agenda ? Does bhobba sell these amps ?  WE sell them as you know. OYE !! The Analysis room won best sound at Rocky Mountain two years in a row using these amps. This year one of the best. Stella reviews and so on. I am not alone in suggesting their sonic merits.   
     I'm relating my personal experience with my speakers. I thought you knew me by now Mike, I guess not.
      In direct comparison the sound is closer to real than the colored SET amps.
       Now back to the OP question. IMO any amp in question should be able to drive ones speakers to the listening level desired. Meaning if you listen at 90db how much power do you need to make your speakers do that without strain.
      For me it was not that the Arions are a better amp than the SET. Just works better. With the Pipedreams at 6 ohms and 66 drivers one needs current. It is the sheer current that makes the Pipes sing. Although the 18W SET did a fine job the Arions did a better job driving the Pipes. Remember the Arions use a 6H30 input tube. Hybrid not like the N-Core.
     Pete your on, should be fun. Now if one desires an SET amp and does not have $10,000 for a Loesch & Weisner amp then by all means listen to a Coincident 300B or Airtight. If you desire a custom hand made SET contact Gary Dodd.



charles
 

[Triode Pete]

Pete, what are your amps? Something custom, I think? Did you build them? thanks

My buddy & good friend John Wiesner (of Loesch & Wiesner fame) built them for me, specifically for my system. Hand made, custom powder-coated aluminum chassis, all point to point wiring with vintage NOS UTC (made in NYC) power trannies and Tango XE-20S output iron... Furutech RCA / binding posts, my cords hardwired into them, etc... John told me these were the quietest pair of amps he ever built (and yes, they have AC on the filaments! as well as several transformer chokes)...

I do not have the knowledge nor the skill to design, layout & construct amps of this caliber. John has an extensive antique radio collection that he restored over the past 50 years & he told me he learned a ton about design, layout, grounding techniques, etc. from these old radios / amps. He's a degree'd EE from England and was trained in the USAF in electronics (including soldering techniques). In 1957, when John was 13, he built a pair of push-pull tube amps to power his home-made Tesla Coil; he wiped out all radio signal transmission from WGY in Schenectady, the largest broadcast station (50,000 watts) at the time, for 2 whole days... a modern-day equivalent of a super-hacker...

He's in a whole other league & I'm glad he's my good friend... 

Pete

[Bill O'Connell]

Great story,