Author Topic: Hybrids vs. "Mix 'n Match"...???  (Read 16301 times)

Offline StereoNut

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Hybrids vs. "Mix 'n Match"...???
« on: June 08, 2012, 12:43:03 PM »
I recently started a thread based on my contemplation of switching from my (Naim) SS separates to a tube integrated.  (See link below.)

http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=3947.0

In the meanwhile, I have been seeing more and more info. on Hybrid Integrateds (e.g.: tubes combo'd with MOSFET's, etc...) which has now got me wondering... What if I "create my own Hybrid" (yes, I know... what ever happened to my thought of keeping things simple?) by matching up (a) Digital (NCore's, ICE, etc...) power amp(s) with a Tube Pre-amp as separates?  

Would it give me the "best of both worlds" or just give me a complicated, mis-matched mess!?!?

Thanks!

« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 12:45:26 PM by StereoNut »
"Friends, Romans & Countrymen; lend me your ears"

• Primaluna Dialogue Tube Pre-Amp
• N.Y.A.L. Moscode 600 Amp
• Bolder/EE Minimax DAC
• Cambridge D-500SE CDP
• Von Schweikert 2012 Mod.VR-4 Gen.III speakers
• VPI Prime/Soundsmith MMP3/DV20x2H
• T.W.L

AcidJazz

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Re: Hybrids vs. "Mix 'n Match"...???
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2012, 04:00:59 PM »
I recently auditioned the 'touring' Ncore with a tube pre, it was an interesting combo...can't say I could find fault with the combo.
Of course my system is not your system...sooo YMWV.

Offline StereoNut

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Re: Hybrids vs. "Mix 'n Match"...???
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2012, 08:45:00 PM »
Thanx, AJ!
"Friends, Romans & Countrymen; lend me your ears"

• Primaluna Dialogue Tube Pre-Amp
• N.Y.A.L. Moscode 600 Amp
• Bolder/EE Minimax DAC
• Cambridge D-500SE CDP
• Von Schweikert 2012 Mod.VR-4 Gen.III speakers
• VPI Prime/Soundsmith MMP3/DV20x2H
• T.W.L

lonewolfny42

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Re: Hybrids vs. "Mix 'n Match"...???
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2012, 09:30:21 PM »
Quote
What if I "create my own Hybrid" (yes, I know... what ever happened to my thought of keeping things simple?) by matching up (a) Digital (NCore's, ICE, etc...) power amp(s) with a Tube Pre-amp as separates? 

Would it give me the "best of both worlds" or just give me a complicated, mis-matched mess!?!?

I think it would work well with your 33's...... :thumb:

Offline Carlman

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Re: Hybrids vs. "Mix 'n Match"...???
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2012, 07:09:36 AM »
Tube/SS has been a tried and true combo for many (self-included) to get the best of both worlds.... so, if the Ncore has a good impedance match to a tube pre output, should work well. 

Like tube/ss there are a LOT of options.  It's not like any tube pre will sound good (to you) with any amp... and vice-versa... so, experimentation is the only way to know... well, and maybe review the impedance matching before trying...

-C
I really enjoy listening to music.

Offline rollo

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Re: Hybrids vs. "Mix 'n Match"...???
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2012, 08:27:50 AM »
  It is all about synergy. Saying that if you have the time and access to a lot of gear the short answer is yes a tubed Pre and SS Amp or visa versa.
  Now if you like a particular house sound then by all means listen to their intergrated offerings. Every speaker I have had sounded best with a particular amp and preamp combo.
   Von's really like tube amps. If it were me I would investigate a SS Pre [ accuracy ] and a tubed or hybrid Amp for flavor. Your speakers have a high sensitivity so the Amp choice is  not limited to high power tube amps which can be costly.
   Anything that I have you can audition. You can listen to an 18W SET or a 60 Watt Classic 60 or the Arions. Experience with different components is a learning curve. Even if the components are above your budget  it will open your eyes to what is possible. Try and learn is my motto. Their are many different amps in our club for you to try as well.
   If I was you a Rogers EH 100 intergrated would be on my short list. One of my cuctomers uses one. It took me away through B&W 802 Diamonds .Made in upstate NY. Google away.


charles
  
« Last Edit: June 14, 2012, 08:30:23 AM by rollo »
contact me  at rollo14@verizon.net or visit us on Facebook
Lamm Industries - Aqua Acoustic, Formula & La Scala DAC- INNUOS  - Rethm - Kuzma - QLN - Audio Hungary Qualiton - Fritz speakers -Gigawatt -Vinnie Rossi,TWL, Swiss Cables, Merason DAC.

Offline StereoNut

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Re: Hybrids vs. "Mix 'n Match"...???
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2012, 09:23:55 AM »
 It is all about synergy. Saying that if you have the time and access to a lot of gear the short answer is yes a tubed Pre and SS Amp or visa versa.
  Now if you like a particular house sound then by all means listen to their intergrated offerings. Every speaker I have had sounded best with a particular amp and preamp combo.
   Von's really like tube amps. If it were me I would investigate a SS Pre [ accuracy ] and a tubed or hybrid Amp for flavor. Your speakers have a high sensitivity so the Amp choice is  not limited to high power tube amps which can be costly.
   Anything that I have you can audition. You can listen to an 18W SET or a 60 Watt Classic 60 or the Arions. Experience with different components is a learning curve. Even if the components are above your budget  it will open your eyes to what is possible. Try and learn is my motto. Their are many different amps in our club for you to try as well.
   If I was you a Rogers EH 100 intergrated would be on my short list. One of my cuctomers uses one. It took me away through B&W 802 Diamonds .Made in upstate NY. Google away.

charles

+1000%

If I had to restrict myself to the ONE most important word in audio, it is synergy!

I appreciate you thinking of ideas for me, but right now I have to determine which path (SS, Tube, Hybrid, etc...) I want to take. ](*,)

Here's what my plan is (for now)... I have an old Parasound PHP-850 Pre-amp (http://www.parasound.com/vintage/php850.php) at home in a second system.  I'm going to start auditioning a few borrowed amps that have been offered to me to try with the PHP850 pre.  I have a Classe "Twenty Five" in the house now, just to see if 250WPC sounds better than my Naim's 70WPC.  (SS <> SS)  I realize that it's not a complete "apples to apples" comparison because the pre-amp is different than my Naim, but moving forward every comparison (unless I get an integrated as a loaner) will use the Parasound pre as a constant.  Hopefully, I will be able to get a good idea as to how many watts my Von Schweikert VR-4 Gen.III with the 2012 MODS need to make them "sing" and decide if I want to stick with all SS... or change to Tubes... or what!?!  :shock:  :-k  :? 

The toughest part of this process is going to be having enough time to mix, match & listen.  It's also hard to be patient when you (I) see something that looks like a great deal on A'gon, eBay, etc... but have never heard it, let alone in your (my) own system and yet you (I) think "how can I pass this up!?!? :roll:

Once I narrow things down, I will start bothering you for some in home auditions. :thumb:
"Friends, Romans & Countrymen; lend me your ears"

• Primaluna Dialogue Tube Pre-Amp
• N.Y.A.L. Moscode 600 Amp
• Bolder/EE Minimax DAC
• Cambridge D-500SE CDP
• Von Schweikert 2012 Mod.VR-4 Gen.III speakers
• VPI Prime/Soundsmith MMP3/DV20x2H
• T.W.L

Offline rollo

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Re: Hybrids vs. "Mix 'n Match"...???
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2012, 06:42:03 AM »
If that is Jay's DR 25 he paid $900 from me.



charles
contact me  at rollo14@verizon.net or visit us on Facebook
Lamm Industries - Aqua Acoustic, Formula & La Scala DAC- INNUOS  - Rethm - Kuzma - QLN - Audio Hungary Qualiton - Fritz speakers -Gigawatt -Vinnie Rossi,TWL, Swiss Cables, Merason DAC.

Offline StereoNut

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Re: Hybrids vs. "Mix 'n Match"...???
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2012, 07:06:21 AM »
I've finally have gotten started, but want to preface all of this with the following "disclaimer"...  :shock:  

I know that the comparison(s) that I did (and will be doing) aren't set up in an optimal way due to my Naim equipment and I/C's (with their DIN connectors) not being inter-changable with other manufacturer's products.  So please don't obsess over the fact that I/C's and (for simplicity's sake) power cords being used on the "baseline" Naim equipment won't be identical to what's connected to all of the other amps/pre-amps that I switch in/out of my system. I am well aware of it - Thank you! ;)  With that being said, lets move on. :thumb:

I listened to my Naim electronics last night and then switched over to my Parasound PHP850 Pre-amp and a borrowed Classe' "Twenty Five" amp and then back again.  (Speakers and CD player remained constant.)  I was somewhat surprised by the results.  The Parasound/Classe' set-up had a smaller left <> right soundstage, which made it rather obvious that the music was coming from my speakers  Bass seemed to be slower and a bit bloated.  Disappointingly, a very "Hi-fi" sound overall.  My Naim set-up was very much the opposite; wider soundstage, more holographic imaging and tighter, quicker bass.  The most interesting thing that I realized in this comparison is that my Naim's 70WPC doesn't sound underpowered against the Classe's 250WPC. (Maybe the 89db sensitivity on my VR-4 Gen.III 2012 MOD speakers will allow for less WPC that I thought!?!) [-o<

Just to make sure I wasn't favoring the Naim set-up because it's mine (or because it's the sound I'm so used to) I recruited my daughter & wife (much to their dismay) to listen back 'n forth.  I'm sure I don't have to say this, but neither of them could care less which electronics were which (I didn't tell them what I was playing when) nor do they know or use audiophile terminology. Nonetheless, the girls always seem to be a good "litmus test" for system changes I try. Not only is their hearing better than mine, they are completely un-biased in their listening because they have no vested interest in any of it.  My wife said the music through "System A" (Parasound/Classe') sounded "smaller & slower".  My daughter just said that "System B" (Naim) set-up sounded "more alive and was better". 

Obviously, I will need to spend some more time with these two set-ups and listen to more varied music, but for anybody that's keeping score - it sounds like "Round 1" goes to Naim.  

T.B.C.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2012, 08:24:00 AM by StereoNut »
"Friends, Romans & Countrymen; lend me your ears"

• Primaluna Dialogue Tube Pre-Amp
• N.Y.A.L. Moscode 600 Amp
• Bolder/EE Minimax DAC
• Cambridge D-500SE CDP
• Von Schweikert 2012 Mod.VR-4 Gen.III speakers
• VPI Prime/Soundsmith MMP3/DV20x2H
• T.W.L

Offline StereoNut

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Re: Hybrids vs. "Mix 'n Match"...???
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2012, 08:34:32 AM »
If that is Jay's DR 25 he paid $900 from me.

charles

Nope!  Borrowed from tmazz.  :)
"Friends, Romans & Countrymen; lend me your ears"

• Primaluna Dialogue Tube Pre-Amp
• N.Y.A.L. Moscode 600 Amp
• Bolder/EE Minimax DAC
• Cambridge D-500SE CDP
• Von Schweikert 2012 Mod.VR-4 Gen.III speakers
• VPI Prime/Soundsmith MMP3/DV20x2H
• T.W.L

Offline richidoo

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Re: Hybrids vs. "Mix 'n Match"...???
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2012, 09:45:50 AM »
It's always fun when your own gear wins!  :thumb:   You're on the right track Bill. Keep having fun with it.

Offline StereoNut

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Re: Hybrids vs. "Mix 'n Match"...???
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2012, 11:13:10 AM »
It's always fun when your own gear wins!  :thumb:   You're on the right track Bill. Keep having fun with it.

Thanks, Rich!  I have to be honest; I didn't expect the differences to be so pronounced.  I thought that one set-up would do certain things better than the other and vice-versa, but that really wasn't the case last night.  I'll spend some more time with things set up like this until I get the next loaner amp to swap in.
After last nights listening, my wife (with her hands on her hips) says to me "... I don't know why you waste soooo much  time with trying new things in your system when your stereo sounds as good as it does to begin with!?!?!"  Of course, I replied "...but, Hon - you can't know what things will sound like until you try them.  It's all part of the search for (as I hold up the latest copy that's on the end table) "The Absolute Sound". 8)  At that point, my 20 year old daughter turns to her Mom and says "...Mom, don't you know that boys are dumb!?!?" :shock:
"Friends, Romans & Countrymen; lend me your ears"

• Primaluna Dialogue Tube Pre-Amp
• N.Y.A.L. Moscode 600 Amp
• Bolder/EE Minimax DAC
• Cambridge D-500SE CDP
• Von Schweikert 2012 Mod.VR-4 Gen.III speakers
• VPI Prime/Soundsmith MMP3/DV20x2H
• T.W.L

Offline richidoo

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Re: Hybrids vs. "Mix 'n Match"...???
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2012, 11:36:24 AM »
Hey, as long as they're talking you know you're OK.   :lol:

NAIM makes some great stuff. I'm not surprised that 70W got it done for you. That's a lot of power, as long as it is real rating, full band, 2 channels, continuous. Usually 70W means a single pair of output devices per channel in push pull with small bias. It can probably make >100W in 4 ohms.

But there's always something better out there, to tempt you!

Offline StereoNut

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Re: Hybrids vs. "Mix 'n Match"...???
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2012, 11:51:01 AM »
Here's what I could find Rich. (See attached.)
« Last Edit: June 15, 2012, 12:06:52 PM by StereoNut »
"Friends, Romans & Countrymen; lend me your ears"

• Primaluna Dialogue Tube Pre-Amp
• N.Y.A.L. Moscode 600 Amp
• Bolder/EE Minimax DAC
• Cambridge D-500SE CDP
• Von Schweikert 2012 Mod.VR-4 Gen.III speakers
• VPI Prime/Soundsmith MMP3/DV20x2H
• T.W.L

Offline richidoo

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Re: Hybrids vs. "Mix 'n Match"...???
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2012, 12:35:38 PM »
Yeah that looks quite stout.  400VA transformer is very big for 'only' 70W.