Intergrated or Separates

[Hugh]

Charles,

Not really.

Melody is pure tubes and Onix is all SS.

We don't carry Onix brand anymore since its reputation was tainted by av123.

This is a rather convoluted topic since it depends largely on pricepoint, SQ, personal taste.

I can only give you a personal take/taste on this.

For my 3rd setup, I use Onix Reference XCD-50 Player & XIA-160 Integrated Amp. and for the money, it's the best in my book.

For my 2nd (Reference) setup, I use Melody Pure Black 101 Pre & PM845 Monos plus a Lector Player.

For my bedroom, I use Melody AN211 Integrated Amp. plus anothe Onix XCD-50 Player.

As you see, space is an issue in our bedroom so AN211 is a good choice plus it produces a velvet sound which I prefer.

So, to sum it up, it all depeneds on how much money/space one got to play with.

Tube or SS?

  Either, Hugh. The Melody line offers both correct ? If so as the distributor/dealer what do you feel are the differences. The topic posted is to stir up conversation about the diferences between separates and intergrated.
  What are the avantages of separtes over intergrated. I'm beginning to believe that the difference while noticable is small.
   A linestage preamp is a tough design effort. Are the intergrated amps missing the sophistication of a separate Pre with a beefer power supply ?  
   I have heard the difference with mono block amps as oppossed to a Stero amp. A bigger soundstage more dynamic however no improvement in tonality or timbre.
   The obvious advantage is less cabling which in itself can be a big savings. One less PC and IC set.  Less space as well.
   The Leben 300XS is a real world piece. I believe about $3500.  Bill correct me if I'm wrong.
   SN with your speakers which have a high sensitivity your choice of amplification is vast. However it may be time to investigate SET type amp or intergrated. Your speakers love SET's. I should be getting the Nightshade Beacon one Pre and NS 40 Amp soon. When you get the speakers back we can have some fun with tube powered gear.
  BTW my friend Boris at Vista Audio carries the Trafomatic line. Maybe we can get one for a demo.
  


charles
SMA

[Hugh]

I also have a pair of Ninjaed Mini Strata in my bedroom and the Melody AN211 drives them nicely.

Count me in on the "Interested where this thread goes list"... on the budget/moderate front. School loans from here to seemingly eternity have put me into austerity mode.

If I ever pull the trigger, I fully expect to grab something used. I had been keeping my eyes out for some options from Musical Fidelity... certainly open to other ideas.

FWIW, i have the Onix Mini Strata speakers (86dB if memory serves me)... the 8" woofer is powered by it's own plate amp, so I wouldn't "think" I need a ton of extra oomph.

[Hugh]

You mean the I880?

If it's so then it's now called Astro Black 50.

Well, as far as I can tell, Integrated is a compromised design of a Pre and a pair of mono or a power amp.

You give up quite a few advantages to have just one box to do everything.  Think of it this way, let's take a phone and a computer separately versus a smart phone...see my drift?

In my personal experience, with SQ as a whole, you'd gain much more to go with Separates than an Integrated.
Nevertheless, Space is the number one concern and then Money so it really depends on what you got to play with.

  The Melody MI880 looks interesting at about $2200 . I believe there is a review in SteroTimes.
   I also like the Leben, Audiovista and for SS Creek and Accuphase. I'm sure there are many more.
   I would say the advantage of separates besides the obvious[ Tmazz] are the separate power supplies, which can be highlighted by using individual separate circuits.  Separates may provide more dynamics, imaging and soundstage size. However I feel it is only a slight advantage that may not equal the cost. Tonality and timbre IMO are not affected.
   I have been thinking about this for a while. I still would use an outboard phono stage. The intergrated would have to have an active Pre section. No more passives for this guy. I have been through everyone. They just lack balls.
  Passives are the equivalent to erectile disfunction in my book.  The Bent units are the only ones that may persuade me back, maybe. 
   There is only one way to tell . Get an intergrated and try. Hugh o Hugh you out there Big Guy.


charles
SMA 
   

[JLM]

In theory:

Integrates will have more problems with shared power supply and shielding, but the manufacturer should have optimized pre/power sections to each other (should be far better than a consumer could do).

In practice:

Manufacturer's typically save their top drawer stuff and extra features for separates.  Some integrates lack a separate "pre-amp" gain section.

Advice:

Decide on what features you really need and look for manufacturers whose integrates use essentially the same guts as their separates.  Burson comes to mind (roughly half the price of separates).  So does Decware (their amps have volume controls with two inputs).

[rollo]

You mean the I880?

If it's so then it's now called Astro Black 50.

Well, as far as I can tell, Integrated is a compromised design of a Pre and a pair of mono or a power amp.

You give up quite a few advantages to have just one box to do everything.  Think of it this way, let's take a phone and a computer separately versus a smart phone...see my drift?

In my personal experience, with SQ as a whole, you'd gain much more to go with Separates than an Integrated.
Nevertheless, Space is the number one concern and then Money so it really depends on what you got to play with.

  The Melody MI880 looks interesting at about $2200 . I believe there is a review in SteroTimes.
   I also like the Leben, Audiovista and for SS Creek and Accuphase. I'm sure there are many more.
   I would say the advantage of separates besides the obvious[ Tmazz] are the separate power supplies, which can be highlighted by using individual separate circuits.  Separates may provide more dynamics, imaging and soundstage size. However I feel it is only a slight advantage that may not equal the cost. Tonality and timbre IMO are not affected.
   I have been thinking about this for a while. I still would use an outboard phono stage. The intergrated would have to have an active Pre section. No more passives for this guy. I have been through everyone. They just lack balls.
  Passives are the equivalent to erectile disfunction in my book.  The Bent units are the only ones that may persuade me back, maybe. 
  There is only one way to tell . Get an intergrated and try. Hugh o Hugh you out there Big Guy.


charles
SMA 
   

 No I meant the MI880 reviewed in 2007 by Stereo Times. Is it now called the Astro Black 50. OK.  
     Hugh I agree and disagree. What I'm getting at is that some Integrated that I have heard do not miss much if anything from more expensive separates.  Cost is a factor but not the deciding factor for me. It is the sound. For others I cannot know what is most important to them.
   I have used separates for over 30 years. I sell separates.  Lately my experience with a VAC and Accuphase have shown the disparity is close if not equal to many top notch separates. I use custom Consonance 211s with RCA 211 tubes a Loesch and Weisner Preamp and a Lector CDP7TL. Speakers are Pipedreams 924s. LP122 for vinyl.  
   So I thought I would through out the topic to see if anyone else experienced the same.
   I believe marketing has a lot to do with it as well. One does make more selling 2 pieces instead of one. Now I'm not saying that its a sales pitch better is better. I do believe that some manufactures interg rateds are right up there with the separates.  Not all is compromised.  



charles
SMA

[bhobba]

The Leben 300XS is a real world piece. I believe about $3500.  Bill correct me if I'm wrong.

Yea that's it and you can definitely buy it -  I did.

Leben is generally considered one of the best valve amps on the market - it only looses out slightly to my SET in midrange transparency (if transparency is the correct word here - it is coloured - it just sounds transparent).  But you will find people saying that SET is likely the best Midrange you can get:
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue39/trafomatic.htm
'Folks, hold on tight (this is the part where I put my foot in my mouth, oh, to hell with it): I forthwith pronounce the Trafomatic Audio Experience Two the best, most glorious, midrange and vocal amp that has ever graced my audio system.  Woohaa. That's it. Review is done.'

'Thus we arrive at E2. Having had something like 20-30 amplifiers come through my system over the years, I have yet to hear one that sounds so darn fine and glorious in the midrange as the E2. Is it colored? You betcha. But boy, do the colors shine!'

That pretty much says it all IMHO.

Thanks
Bill

[Hugh]

Charles,

A small correction please.

I read that article and the author was confused.

M stands for Monoblock.
I stands for Integrated.

The review was clearly for the I880.

Thanks,

[tmazz]

I think it's fair to say that tube lovers are not necessarily looking for a "straight wire with gain" kind of sound. They like the euphonics tubes create and are not looking for anything sterile sounding. Not that all SS amps are sterile sounding, far from it, and not that all tube amps are euphonic.

From a practical point I definitely agree. I was just addressing the theoretical argument of which was "better". From a realistic purchasing point of view better is simply what floats the boat of the buyer, regardless of how it measures or what anybody else thinks.

[bhobba]

From a realistic purchasing point of view better is simply what floats the boat of the buyer, regardless of how it measures or what anybody else thinks.

How true that is.  Just a couple of minutes ago I had a friend over to borrow my Metrum and Off-Ramp.  While he was here we checked out my Trafomatic.  He didn't like it but understood why I did - Sinatra, Sammy Davis, Dianna Krall - the type of music I listen to - sounds simply amazing.

Thanks
Bill

[woofersus]

I agree it's tough to say.  There are some very nice integrated amps out there, and I don't think you lose much, but there seems to still be a little something extra that comes from separates.  Melody's new upscale integrateds, the AN211 and AN300B have absolute top notch parts in them. (Mundorf silver-in-oil and Jensen copper foil paper-in-oil caps, hand wound interstage transformers, etc.)  However, there is still a certain magic that the Pure Black 101 and either M845 or PM845 monos has that the former can't seem to match.  The trouble is that it's not apples to apples.  Maybe I just like the sound of 845's better than 300b's?  Maybe one is a slightly better design than the other?  Maybe it's just that the Melody preamp is just that awesome?  Who knows?

A better comparison would to look at a pair of Melody monos next to an integrated with the same tube and design. They make mono versions of the Astro Black 50, Astro Black 22, Astro Black 8, and Astro Black 40, plus a couple of other variants, but we aren't importing them right now because there are just so many models.  Maybe someday if there is demand that will happen and we can do a cool side-by-side test.

All of that is besides the point, however, because objectively there ARE very good sounding integrated amps to be had.  Buying a separate preamp and monos will always be more expensive, at least when you're comparing a similar level of performance.  If you don't plan on mixing and matching in the future I think an integrated amp (tube or SS) can represent a great value.  Just like anything else in this hobby, you have to pick your price range and then decide whether you want to eek the last bit of performance out or go for value and simplicty.

[tmazz]

He didn't like it but understood why I did .......

And isn't that all that really counts???

[rollo]

Charles,

A small correction please.

I read that article and the author was confused.

M stands for Monoblock.
I stands for Integrated.

The review was clearly for the I880.

Thanks,

  Thanks for the clarification. 


charles
SMA

[rollo]

  Bill checked out the Trafomatic site. Could not find any pricing. Give us an idea at what we are looking at.


thanks,
charles
SMA

[bhobba]

He didn't like it but understood why I did .......

And isn't that all that really counts???

Abso-friggen-lutely.

I actually have two amps in my system for different things.  A Patek (soon to be replaced with a NAKSA 100) for movie's and music with a bit of dynamism but my SET for Sinatra, Krall, Sammy Davis, etc.

Thanks
Bill

[bhobba]

Bill checked out the Trafomatic site. Could not find any pricing. Give us an idea at what we are looking at

Hi Charles

About $4k mate.

Works great with ML3's but maybe a bit underpowered for ML1'a, 2's and the new S2.  Although it does have unusal drive for a SET and a mate of mine reviwed them with some low sensitivity difficult to drive ATC's:
http://www.digitalaudioreview.net.au/index.php/audio-reviews/amplifier-reviews/item/133-trafomatic-experience-two-integrated-amplifier

My opinion is it is an excellent second amp to have for the right type of material and have another amp for movie's , heavy rock etc.  But for Krall etc sheer magic, sheer magic.  Its just that that is the material I predominately listen to so its really my first amp - although on my ML3's because they are 89 db sensitive even Rock is not too bad with it.

Thanks
Bill



Thanks
Bill