Intergrated or Separates

[rollo]

 
   Are the intergrated amps catching up ? Any thoughts ???


charles
SMA

[StereoNut]

Interesting topic, Charles.  

As you know, I'm in the midst of getting my speakers packed up (hopefully in the next few weeks) to send in to Von Schweikert in California for upgrades.  My VR-4 Gen.III's haven't even left my house yet and my nervosa already has me contemplating new electronics as my next move.  I've been quietly thinking to myself and wondering whether a really nice sounding integrated without spending stupid $$$ was possible (?) as a replacement to my "oldie but goodie" Naim separates.

I know I can't think of more "new toys" until sometime way, way further down the line (so I can gather up my pennies again) but I'm very interested in seeing what recommendations & comments you get here.

SN

[Hugh]

Tube or SS?

[shadowlight]

Tube or SS?

Hybrid

[Hugh]

I see.

I know nothing about hybrid.

[StereoNut]

Tube or SS?

Why not all (Tube/SS/Hybrid) three!?!

Bracketed (Budget/Intermediate/Expensive) categories may also be of use to many of us as well.

SN

[bhobba]

The two best amps I have had through my system have been integrated's - a Leben 300XS integrated and a Trafomatic Experience Two SET.  I have directly compared both to much more expensive Mac 501's and the Leben was about on par - it had a better midrange but worse bass grip.  The Trafomatic - well here is the story about the comparison.  After hearing Dianna Krall A Case Of You on the Mac's we switched over to the Trafomatic - it simply stunned me and I asked the owner of the Mac's what he thought - he said do you want me to say it, do you want me to say it. It was no contest.

Thanks
Bill

[rollo]

Tube or SS?

  Either, Hugh. The Melody line offers both correct ? If so as the distributor/dealer what do you feel are the differences. The topic posted is to stir up conversation about the diferences between separates and intergrated.
  What are the avantages of separtes over intergrated. I'm beginning to believe that the difference while noticable is small.
   A linestage preamp is a tough design effort. Are the intergrated amps missing the sophistication of a separate Pre with a beefer power supply ?  
   I have heard the difference with mono block amps as oppossed to a Stero amp. A bigger soundstage more dynamic however no improvement in tonality or timbre.
   The obvious advantage is less cabling which in itself can be a big savings. One less PC and IC set.  Less space as well.
   The Leben 300XS is a real world piece. I believe about $3500.  Bill correct me if I'm wrong.
   SN with your speakers which have a high sensitivity your choice of amplification is vast. However it may be time to investigate SET type amp or intergrated. Your speakers love SET's. I should be getting the Nightshade Beacon one Pre and NS 40 Amp soon. When you get the speakers back we can have some fun with tube powered gear.
  BTW my friend Boris at Vista Audio carries the Trafomatic line. Maybe we can get one for a demo.
  


charles
SMA

[StereoNut]

...SN with your speakers which have a high sensitivity your choice of amplification is vast. However it may be time to investigate SET type amp or intergrated. Your speakers love SET's. I should be getting the Nightshade Beacon one Pre and NS 40 Amp soon. When you get the speakers back we can have some fun with tube powered gear. BTW my friend Boris at Vista Audio carries the Trafomatic line. Maybe we can get one for a demo...
  
charles
SMA

(Quote Abbreviated for space)

Actually, Charles - my VR-4 Gen.III's aren't as sensitive as you think. I believe they're only around 87-88db. (Believe it or not, Jim's much bigger VR-6's are more sensitive!) So, SET amps may (?) not be enough power for them.

Once my speakers get upgraded, Albert (Von Schweikert) tells me the sensitivity will be better.  I think he said they'd go up a notch or two to around 90db.  I guess time will tell.

When I do get my speakers back I'll be thrilled to have the chance to audition some new electronics with you via SMA. 
 
SN

[tmazz]

I'm not sure that this is even a valid question from a conceptual standpoint. I can definitely see comparing currently available separate vs. integrated offerings at a given price and power output but to ask the question in such an open ended manner doesn't really get us anywhere. From the consumer's point of view the question really becomes one of space and simplicity vs. flexibility. Separates give you the flexibility to mix and match components and brands to maximize synergy in your given system. They also allow you to change the individual pieces as your system evolves. But this of course comes with a downside (always does) in that separates take up more physical space, are more complex to connect and generally carry a higher total price tag and a single piece unit. (This same discussion by the way can also be applied at an even lower level to full preamps vs line stages with separate phono stages.)
From the manufacturer's perspective IMO it boils down to one simple thing - Marketing. Let's be realistic, the number one objective of any manufacturer is to sell product. Anything else they do is only in support of that number one objective. You can build the best amp in the world and if nobody buys it you will be out of business in no time flat. You can build damn near anything you want if you throw enough money at it. I am sure that they can build integrated amp that will compete with most of the separates out there. The real question is do the want to from a business perspective. (Not unlike the car makers wanting to sell more luxury cars than econoboxes because there is more profit in them. SO again I don't think it is really a matter of which type of component is better from a theoretical point of view as much as it is one of how do the current offerings of each type compare and contrast.

[tmazz]

As for tubes vs ss this issue ( IMO) is getting less relevant as time goes on and hopefully will go away some day. When you think about it the perfect amplifier (the mythical strait wire with gain) would have no sound of its own since the output would be a perfect replication of the input with the exception of amplitude. Amps get there "sound" when they deviate from tat perfect reproduction (aka distort). Each component differes slightly in the type and amount of deviation thus giving it its own unique character. As amplifier designs, both tube and SS become better and better those deviations become smaller and smaller. And it only makes sense that if both types are getting closer to the "perfect" sound , they are also becoming closer to each other. And the more they get it right, the less difference we will hear among the competing technologies.

[BobM]

I think it's fair to say that tube lovers are not necessarily looking for a "straight wire with gain" kind of sound. They like the euphonics tubes create and are not looking for anything sterile sounding. Not that all SS amps are sterile sounding, far from it, and not that all tube amps are euphonic.

[Regg]

Not much experience with integrateds here, but would like to hear more. For awhile now I've felt that if something akin to a MastersounD 845 Compact would work in my setup it might simplify my life a bit.

I've heard a Primaluna integrated, which sounded lovely, but just didn't have the juice to kick those ten inch drivers in my friend's Sunny Cable loudspeakers.

I found a Redgum integrated to be a very pleasing, very musical piece. However I have no idea how much they retail for and good luck finding one used. The Dayens Menuetto interests me at a lower price point but I have yet to hear it.

Any thoughts here on the Ayon Orion?

[djdube525]

Count me in on the "Interested where this thread goes list"... on the budget/moderate front. School loans from here to seemingly eternity have put me into austerity mode.

If I ever pull the trigger, I fully expect to grab something used. I had been keeping my eyes out for some options from Musical Fidelity... certainly open to other ideas.

FWIW, i have the Onix Mini Strata speakers (86dB if memory serves me)... the 8" woofer is powered by it's own plate amp, so I wouldn't "think" I need a ton of extra oomph.

[rollo]

  The Melody MI880 looks interesting at about $2200 . I believe there is a review in SteroTimes.
   I also like the Leben, Audiovista and for SS Creek and Accuphase. I'm sure there are many more.
   I would say the advantage of separates besides the obvious[ Tmazz] are the separate power supplies, which can be highlighted by using individual separate circuits.  Separates may provide more dynamics, imaging and soundstage size. However I feel it is only a slight advantage that may not equal the cost. Tonality and timbre IMO are not affected.
   I have been thinking about this for a while. I still would use an outboard phono stage. The intergrated would have to have an active Pre section. No more passives for this guy. I have been through everyone. They just lack balls.
  Passives are the equivalent to erectile disfunction in my book.  The Bent units are the only ones that may persuade me back, maybe. 
   There is only one way to tell . Get an intergrated and try. Hugh o Hugh you out there Big Guy.


charles
SMA