Author Topic: Listening Session - RWA Signature 70s and Yamamoto A-08s  (Read 21613 times)

miklorsmith

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Listening Session - RWA Signature 70s and Yamamoto A-08s
« on: January 29, 2007, 08:38:52 AM »
I had an in-home session yesterday with four other experienced audiophiles at my house.  We spent about 4 hours with the following system:  Modwright Music Hall CDP as transport to a TacT 2.2XP.  Bass was to a Crown K2 on the rear subwoofer array on my Zu Definition Pros and the mains ran digital-out from the TacT to a Lessloss 2004 DAC.  We split time between the Red Wine amps, which are about 50 wpc into the main array's 6 ohm load, and a Yamamoto A-08s, which produces about 2 watts.

The main array was running down to 65 hz, where the subwoofers picked up.  The power difference between the amps was not a factor, as we played pretty loudly the whole time.  I didn't break out my SPL meter to get numbers though.  When I first switched from the battery-powered Tripath RWA amps to the 45 SET Yamamoto, I also switched the TacT correction.  It seemed like the Yammie was running out of gas at the boisterous volumes and heavy basslines we were playing.  I checked the XO settings and saw the Yamamoto was running down to 40 hz instead of the intended 65 hz.  After correcting that, the little SET was comfortable for the rest of the session.

As far as impressions, I'm going to send a link to this thread to the fellows that were there and invite their impressions.  I'll weigh in a little later on . . .

alwayslearning

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Listening Session - RWA Signature 70s and Yamamoto A-08s
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2007, 08:48:36 PM »
I'm one of the folks who listened in on this session.  I'll confine my remarks to differences I heard in the presentation of the Red Wine Audio Signature 70s and the Yamamoto.  Keeping in mind that this is the first time I've heard the RWA 70s and that I really only listened to one track (Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra, first movement) that I was intimately familiar with on both amps (and at differing volume levels, thus making the comparison more difficult), I liked both amps but clearly preferred the Yammie.  Where the RWA was highly resolving to the point where I was a little distracted by some background noise on the recording (players making noise on stage), the Yammie had a more liquid, free-flowing sound that let me relax into the music.  Timbres seemed more true to life with the tube amp as well.  Transients were sharper with the RWA, but I did not feel these were shortchanged with the tube amp.  The deep bass performance was a non-issue, since the Zu Definitions were separately powered at the lowest frequencies.  However, both amps did well in the power zone of low to medium bass output.  Bottom line is that both amps made music.  For what its worth, I generally prefer tubes to solid state and personally own Shindo electronics.

mantis

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Audio Session
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2007, 09:44:45 PM »
I was also in on the session.  The differences in presentation between the Yamamoto and the Red Wine were not subtle.  My comparisons are with Cowboy Junkies, Whites Off Earth Now track "Baby Please Don't Go".  With the RW the guitar work by Michael was more forward and crisp sounding while Margo was a little further back in presentation and less warm.  The Yamamoto had more of a laidback sound with the guitar and Margo was a bit more even in the soundstage  and definitely more natural sounding and her voice had a beautiful tonal quality to it.  Don't get me wrong -- both sound great!   As I recall there was more noticeable recording room ambiance present with the RW so if you are a detail person you may prefer the Red Wine but again the Yamamoto was itself very detailed but warmer.   Overall I prefered the Yamamoto to the RW primarily because of the natural emotional quality.  I could see myself becoming more connected to the music for longer if I lived with the Yamamoto  (only 2 watts though so very efficient speakers are needed).  A very enjoyable afternoon with great gear and cool audioheads.

Nate

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Listening Session - RWA Signature 70s and Yamamoto A-08s
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2007, 08:17:15 PM »
Sorry for my late reply......

As with the other two audioheads I really liked the Yamamoto, though in general I tend to prefer a more euphonic sound.  This was my first experience with RWA amps and wow!!  They are mucho silent!  It had superb blackness and tons of detail while maintaining a fairly musical presentation.  
The yamamoto was liquid and supple while still keeping up with the subs.   As with the RWA, I felt the yammy was plenty detailed for me.  On the cuts that I heard I felt the Yammy was a much better fit with the rest of the equipment.  My system has  a warm and lush MC cart, a fairly neutral phonostage, preamp, and amp all paired with my very revealing and neutral speakers.  Everything is in fairly good balance for my taste.  The Yamamoto fit more into this warm detailed taste for me.  

As for the Def-Pros I felt that in general the tonal balance from the front drivers to rear was quite seamless.  Next time, I would really like to see the x-over points and the room correction profile on the Tact.  As the afternoon rolled on I was really starting to get into the Zu sound and appreciate the flat frequency response and wide soundstage.  Of course memory is failing but I seem to remember more top end extension and air when I heard the Zu speakers last year at CES ’06….  With loudspeakers I always prefer an error of omission rather than addition.  What the Defs did was really great, and for me it really isn’t too important if they have extension out to oblivion.  Of course, my ears could have been messed up in some way :?    Oh, and get ready because next time I'm bringing some pipe organ music!!!!

Nate

lonewolfny42

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Listening Session - RWA Signature 70s and Yamamoto A-08s
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2007, 11:38:07 PM »
Interesting.....thanks for posting your comments.... :D

miklorsmith

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Listening Session - RWA Signature 70s and Yamamoto A-08s
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2007, 11:55:07 AM »
Another fellow wrote to me about what he heard in a private e-mail.  He said no problem posting the comments, so here they are:

Hi Mike,
I wanted to thank you for hosting us. I enjoyed meeting the others, and listening to your system was most enjoyable.  
Several things struck me. First and foremost, the wide range, great soundstage, detail, and ambience retrieval was very enjoyable, and top notch. Also, the dynamics were outstanding. The switch to the SE amp was very convincing to me. Overall I thought the system presented the liveliness of the music most enjoyably.
I was also envious of the effective way you controlled the room without over damping it. A nice balance, I think. I miss the days when I had a free hand to tune my room.
I was reading some posts of yours elsewhere where you comment on the presence region of the Zus, what I might call lower treble. I did feel that was the one area that was not quite up to the standard of the rest of the range. It is hard to describe, but I felt that are was a bit rough sounding. Whether cause by upper end driver irregularities, or room interaction is hard to pin down.
In any case, the issue was only intermittently noticeable and certainly not distracting from the excellent musical presentation. There are certainly traits of your system which I wish mine had more of, and I've never heard a system that truly had it all.


I thanked him, especially for the comments about the presence region.  I know about this but all I've done so far is a hamfisted guess as far as where the issue is and how much to attenuate it.  I really need to sit down with some test tones and get more precise.

Thanks to all who came and took their time to weigh in.  I still have my comments to write and I'll try to do that this weekend.

Mike

miklorsmith

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Listening Session - RWA Signature 70s and Yamamoto A-08s
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2007, 12:21:45 AM »
I've been thinking quite a bit about a comment from alwayslearning, above.  This is regarding his preference for tubed gear over solid state, citing a particular distraction on the reference track of hearing the (unrelated?) nonmusical sounds of the performers going about their necessary human business.

I consider myself to be a fan of the sound tubes can provide, if not their idiosyncrasies which range from humorous to agonizing.  Yet, this comment gave me pause.  Of course, honest retrieval of these types of noises is a great goal of audiophilia, right?  Hearing audience members shifting in their seats on a recording is a memorable event, markable on the calendar.  Yet, here is an experienced audiophile citing same as a distraction from the musical message.

The Red Wine Audio Signature 70 monoblock amplifiers in question have been hailed as SET solid state.  But, I don't think anyone at the Sunday session confused the RWAs with the Yamamoto - they have important, divergent musical traits.  My opinion is they share many skills as well.

Grain, especially in the treble region, is often aligned with solid state amplifiers by tube-o-philes.  The Signature amps are utterly smooth.  Tubes can be most adept at riding the nuance of instrument.  A saxophone note quavers and darts in a split second.  Lithe tracking of faint transitions is a major advantage of tubes which most solid state gear cannot match.  Again, the Red Wine amps give up nothing to a great tube amp here.

These two similarities are significant and by themselves make the Signature amplifiers a big step toward creating a Great Tube Experience without the glowing bottles (hey, the red power lights kind of glow though).

Now, the differences:  Properly implemented, tubes have something of a quirky artificial intelligence.  Not everyone will appreciate it.  They *decide* what is important and emphasize that.  Minor sounds and details are shuffled backward or off the stage entirely and the lead singer or guitarist is pushed to the front.  Dynamic contrasts between main and ancillary performers is accentuated, which has an immersive and powerful effect.

A related phenomenon is their rubberband effect.  The transient strike is, to varying degrees, recessed.  It might not be noticeable without direct comparison.  Then, they make up for that lag with a jump through the power of the note, with a languid and lingering finish.

These two elements combine to serve an intimate and addicting version of the performance.  While details might be softened or lost, the overall performance, the meat of it, may be heightened.  The Red Wine amps don't do this, taking neutral ground and serving all the detail, albeit in proper context.

These are gross generalizations.  They do describe my experience with these amplifiers though.

Chasing detail can be exciting.  Right now, I'm listening to Patricia Barber's sublime Cafe Blue.  On the Red Wine amps, the band is kept together tightly and all parts are in step even in the chaos this band dips into from time to time.  It is wonderful.  Yet, on the last CD, JJ Cale with Eric Clapton - The Road to Escondido, I was thinking the cymbals were too prominent and somewhat hard.  Last week when the Yamamoto was in the system this was less of a concern.

In pursuing neutrality and detail, honorable though that may be, recording quality becomes increasingly important.  These traits punish poor recordings more severely than systems directed at tonal development and dynamics.  The latter seem to bring the best out of what's on the record where the former exposes the nits.  

Both can sound great.  Followers of the respective camps can rightfully fault the other.  As with everything audio, it's about learning what you value First, then following that vision.

lonewolfny42

  • Guest
Listening Session - RWA Signature 70s and Yamamoto A-08s
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2007, 12:50:28 AM »
Quote
As with everything audio, it's about learning what you value First, then following that vision.
Yes.....its what you value....what you want to hear.....the tone....  8)
Too bad there's not one perfect amp....but then again, what fun would that be.... :lol:

shep

  • Guest
Listening Session - RWA Signature 70s and Yamamoto A-08s
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2007, 01:04:37 AM »
Quote from: "miklorsmith"
I've been thinking quite a bit about a comment from alwayslearning, above.  This is regarding his preference for tubed gear over solid state, citing a particular distraction on the reference track of hearing the (unrelated?) nonmusical sounds of the performers going about their necessary human business.

I consider myself to be a fan of the sound tubes can provide, if not their idiosyncrasies which range from humorous to agonizing.  Yet, this comment gave me pause.  Of course, honest retrieval of these types of noises is a great goal of audiophilia, right?  Hearing audience members shifting in their seats on a recording is a memorable event, markable on the calendar.  Yet, here is an experienced audiophile citing same as a distraction from the musical message.

The Red Wine Audio Signature 70 monoblock amplifiers in question have been hailed as SET solid state.  But, I don't think anyone at the Sunday session confused the RWAs with the Yamamoto - they have important, divergent musical traits.  My opinion is they share many skills as well.

Grain, especially in the treble region, is often aligned with solid state amplifiers by tube-o-philes.  The Signature amps are utterly smooth.  Tubes can be most adept at riding the nuance of instrument.  A saxophone note quavers and darts in a split second.  Lithe tracking of faint transitions is a major advantage of tubes which most solid state gear cannot match.  Again, the Red Wine amps give up nothing to a great tube amp here.

These two similarities are significant and by themselves make the Signature amplifiers a big step toward creating a Great Tube Experience without the glowing bottles (hey, the red power lights kind of glow though).

Now, the differences:  Properly implemented, tubes have something of a quirky artificial intelligence.  Not everyone will appreciate it.  They *decide* what is important and emphasize that.  Minor sounds and details are shuffled backward or off the stage entirely and the lead singer or guitarist is pushed to the front.  Dynamic contrasts between main and ancillary performers is accentuated, which has an immersive and powerful effect.

A related phenomenon is their rubberband effect.  The transient strike is, to varying degrees, recessed.  It might not be noticeable without direct comparison.  Then, they make up for that lag with a jump through the power of the note, with a languid and lingering finish.

These two elements combine to serve an intimate and addicting version of the performance.  While details might be softened or lost, the overall performance, the meat of it, may be heightened.  The Red Wine amps don't do this, taking neutral ground and serving all the detail, albeit in proper context.

These are gross generalizations.  They do describe my experience with these amplifiers though.

Chasing detail can be exciting.  Right now, I'm listening to Patricia Barber's sublime Cafe Blue.  On the Red Wine amps, the band is kept together tightly and all parts are in step even in the chaos this band dips into from time to time.  It is wonderful.  Yet, on the last CD, JJ Cale with Eric Clapton - The Road to Escondido, I was thinking the cymbals were too prominent and somewhat hard.  Last week when the Yamamoto was in the system this was less of a concern.

In pursuing neutrality and detail, honorable though that may be, I think recording quality becomes increasingly important.  I believe these traits punish poor recordings more severely than systems directed at tonal development and dynamics.  The latter seem to bring the best out of what's on the record where the former exposes the nits.  

Both can sound great.  Followers of the respective camps can rightfully fault the other.  As with everything audio, it's about learning what you value First, then following that vision.
Very thoughtful and thought-provoking. I haven't had tubes for years but think about them a lot! I wonder how my new amp, which is tripath based with a tube front end, will manage to stradle the line. Will it reconcile these two approaches?
No idea. On a slightly dif. track. I am gled to begin to hear some unbiased talk about the Sig. 70. Vinnie is treated like visiting royalty at AC. He is no doubt a very nice guy who makes very nice gear but so far no one has (dared,) spoken dispassionately about his work. If he has made the perfect ss amp then the rest can shut down shot...I doubt if this is the case and would appreciate more input like the above.

miklorsmith

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Listening Session - RWA Signature 70s and Yamamoto A-08s
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2007, 01:18:22 AM »
Vinnie with the Signature amps is no different he was with his Clari-T (of which I owned 2), Klaus with Odyssey, VMPS, or any of the other fervent groups at AC.  For that matter, peruse Agon sometime and see how many diehards there are over there.  Of course, we'd think of that gear as overpriced and mainstream, right?

For that matter, go back to the Carver mods and how they were The . . . Greatest . . . Thing . . . Ever.  Our disease promotes or maybe even requires that idea.  The market would collapse without it and we would be awash on the Seas of Uncertainty if the Next Great Thing weren't poking its mischievious head around the corner.

I'm not knocking the Signature amps at all.  I already owned the Yamamoto when I bought the Sigs and I allowed the no-penalty return to elapse.  Actually, I feel extremely lucky to have chanced into superlative examples of very different sounds without spending a mint.  Of course, now I'm cash poor but music rich - a smiling fate I must admit.

lonewolfny42

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Listening Session - RWA Signature 70s and Yamamoto A-08s
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2007, 01:52:55 AM »
shep:
Quote
If he has made the perfect ss amp then the rest can shut down shot...I doubt if this is the case and would appreciate more input like the above.
There's no "perfect amp" shep.....none really sound like the "real thing"....but close to it. Vinnie's amps do sound good, I've owned two models....but its still not "perfect". They fit a certain spot....soundwise....that I enjoy.
I could not own just one amp....I like variety....even if its not "perfect". :wink:

shep

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Listening Session - RWA Signature 70s and Yamamoto A-08s
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2007, 04:00:37 AM »
Talk about diplomatic replies! Nobody's looking over our shoulder (are they?)
Kidding....I think what I was getting at was...over at AC there are many makers and shakers, which kind of limits critical comment, to say the least.
While I appreciate the "political" and personal reasons for this, it leaves me frustrated. We don't need Lightfoot and co. telling us we are fools but I wouldn't mind the odd comment like "it sounded awful in my system" and try and figure out why.

Offline mca

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Listening Session - RWA Signature 70s and Yamamoto A-08s
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2007, 10:06:17 AM »
Shep,

What is this new hybrid amp you speak of? Do you have it in your possession?
Modwright Transporter, Ayon Spirit II Integrated, Daedalus Ulysses speakers, Running Springs Haley conditioner, Reality cables, Black Sand Violet PC's.

shep

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Listening Session - RWA Signature 70s and Yamamoto A-08s
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2007, 12:08:15 PM »
It wasn't my intention to hi-jack this thread, just to keep it moving. No, the amp is on order and must first be modded by my pal M. Mardis, so it's a way off yet. http://www.little-tube.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51&PN=1

Offline mca

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Listening Session - RWA Signature 70s and Yamamoto A-08s
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2007, 09:11:22 PM »
I was not able to make the big get-together last week, but got to spend about three hours at Mikes today. I really liked what I heard with the RWA/Lessloss combo. We listened to a variety of music at semi-low volumes. Even at this low volume, I felt that nothing was missing. The combo was certainly the most detailed I have heard his system to date. Even with all this detail, nothing sounded artificial or hopped up. It all came across in a very natural and organic way.

The last time I heard his system, his bass array was being powered by a Hafler amp, not sure what model it was. (DH-200?) He is now using a Crown  amp that I believe puts out about 500wpc. One may think that is overkill on such a high efficiency set of speakers, but we are talking about eight 10" drivers! The proof was in the listening and the bass was again the best I have heard in his system. While playing the CD Yello - The Eye, you could feel the bass start to energize the room and want to kick you in the chest. It was very taut and controlled with no bloat at all.  

Overall a very fun listening experience. Looking forward to hearing it again when we can really crank it up and see what she can do!
Modwright Transporter, Ayon Spirit II Integrated, Daedalus Ulysses speakers, Running Springs Haley conditioner, Reality cables, Black Sand Violet PC's.