Systemic Development > Digital Audio Devices
CD Player and two DAC comparisons
rollo:
--- Quote from: S Clark on May 11, 2021, 08:07:24 AM ---When people hear things I can't, instead of doubting, I simply chalk it up to different hearing abilities. Years ago Danny Richie was talking about hearing the difference in black wire insulation compared to red. My ears just aren't sensitive enough for such nuance.
But when we get into something like a quarter turn on a big inductor, or .000 01 of an ohm, I'd think that you have that much variation or more simply in the contact points in on/off switches, or input selectors, or volume pots. I've learned not to doubt that others hear things I don't, but the explanation of 1/100 000 of an ohm or .001% change in an inductor don't seem like a likely reason for change in sound. Most of us don't hear a 1 dB increase or decrease in volume. And +- 3 dB has sort of been an industry standard for decades.
I'm not doubting your conclusions. But I'm curious how you arrived at determining a difference in such small changes? Shoot, I hear things different from night to night... could be what I ate, or allergies, or something my wife said. I do think my state of mind affects my perceived hearing.
--- End quote ---
All good points. If one truly knows the sound of their system a difference can heard. If not then change made is not worth keeping.
charles
steve:
--- Quote from: S Clark on May 11, 2021, 08:07:24 AM ---When people hear things I can't, instead of doubting, I simply chalk it up to different hearing abilities. Years ago Danny Richie was talking about hearing the difference in black wire insulation compared to red. My ears just aren't sensitive enough for such nuance.
But when we get into something like a quarter turn on a big inductor, or .000 01 of an ohm, I'd think that you have that much variation or more simply in the contact points in on/off switches, or input selectors, or volume pots. I've learned not to doubt that others hear things I don't, but the explanation of 1/100 000 of an ohm or .001% change in an inductor don't seem like a likely reason for change in sound. Most of us don't hear a 1 dB increase or decrease in volume. And +- 3 dB has sort of been an industry standard for decades.
I'm not doubting your conclusions. But I'm curious how you arrived at determining a difference in such small changes? Shoot, I hear things different from night to night... could be what I ate, or allergies, or something my wife said. I do think my state of mind affects my perceived hearing.
--- End quote ---
Hi Scott,
Actually it is a1/4" of a turn on the inductor. Dan also hears it and got on my case for having the sound a little too full the last visit up. Changing the inductance just slightly is at the crossover intersection, where phase matching, additions and subtractions occur, thus extremely touchy.
I agree with you, connections, all make a difference and need to be periodically checked. That is one area of concern with maximum attention.
The 1db you mention is spl, across the audio band "volume". What I mean is change in frequency response, or tonal balance change. The ear is incredibly sensitive to tonal balance changes.
That is why +/- 0,1db means so little and why one perceives different manufacturers sounding different even with a
+/- 0,1db spec from 20hz to 20khz. That change in tonal balance is only in the area of -54db down. That variance alters many natural harmonics that an instrument/voice produces, and is easily perceivable.
Changing the number of speaker wires in parallel alters both the total gauge, thus damping of the bass and the inductance at higher frequencies, altering the highs. Both parameters alter any masking effects, rise time (attack times), cleanness of the sound, sound stage, transparency etc.
Also remember this is a lab setting, my preamplifier, amplifier, speakers, ics have been designed and special listening tested to be accurate in absolute terms, so masking is virtually eliminated.
I hope this helps in clarifying and foggy explanations I may have written Scott.
steve
steve:
Just compared the Denafrips and will stick with my highly upgraded Modi 2. Just more natural; the -3db at 20hz did
not help the Denafrips.
cheers
steve
Nick B:
--- Quote from: steve on May 25, 2021, 06:07:16 PM ---Just compared the Denafrips and will stick with my highly upgraded Modi 2. Just more natural; the -3db at 20hz did
not help the Denafrips.
cheers
steve
--- End quote ---
I was curious about other dacs, especially the Denafrips. Do you recall which model?
Nick
steve:
--- Quote from: Nick B on May 25, 2021, 11:04:58 PM ---
--- Quote from: steve on May 25, 2021, 06:07:16 PM ---Just compared the Denafrips and will stick with my highly upgraded Modi 2. Just more natural; the -3db at 20hz did
not help the Denafrips.
cheers
steve
--- End quote ---
I was curious about other dacs, especially the Denafrips. Do you recall which model?
Nick
--- End quote ---
Hi Nick,
Yes, the Aries 2, the least expensive model.
But I noticed an interesting feature. If one inspects all the R2R series, except for Terminator and Terminator Plus DACs, the rest have a spec of -3db at 20hz. The Terminator and Plus have a spec of -0,2db at 20hz.
Listening, I found the deep bass was nearly as loud as from my Upgraded Modi 2, which is within 0,1db. Such an aberration between spec and sound is disconcerting to say the least. However, there is more.
The Aries 2 definitely had a thinner/leaner lower midrange and mids. It was not bad, and even sounded quite refined. But it was enough to lose the "live", natural sound, especially when compared to my upgraded Modi 2.
The cause could be the use of a really poor capacitor in the analog circuitry, such as a power supply capacitor or coupling capacitor. I remember my old sony TC 350 reel to reel that used electrolytic caps as coupling capacitors. However, I tend to feel the electrolytic cap is more likely in the power supply. Tube amps are noted for fat bass somewhat due to electrolytic capacitors.
If the FR spec is good and the sound is great, that is excellent.
If the FR spec is good but the sound is bad, something is wrong.
If the spec is bad, but the sound is good, then something is wrong.
Gotta go.
steve
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