AudioNervosa
Systemic Development => Amplification and Preamplification => Tubes => Topic started by: Bigfish8 on November 10, 2009, 04:22:13 PM
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Guys:
I have a friend that is waiting for a pair of these: http://grantfidelity.com/site/Shuguang+Treasure+CV181-Z He plans to compare them to a pair of 6SN7 Tung Sol Round Plates. Do any of you have any experience with these tubes? While expensive it would be nice to find a quality new 6SN7 tube to at least rival the Tung Sol Round Plates. They are becoming more difficult to find and are very, very expensive!
Ken
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I ordered some Treasures at the time I ordered the 300Bs. After a few months of delays and failed inspection I got sick of waiting and cancelled them. I have some great vintage tubes in there already, so I will try the Treasures later. I would be confident in buying them, even at the high price. Good stuff.
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Ken,
Where do you stand on this tube purchase? did you buy these?
Rob S>
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Ken,
Where do you stand on this tube purchase? did you buy these?
Rob S>
Hi Rob:
No, I have not taken the plunge! My friend has not yet received his pair but he told me he is expecting them this week. He plans to evaluate them in his gear versus Tung-Sol Round Plates. If he tells me they are on par then I will want to take the plunge.
Ken
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I'm the friend Ken is referring to:
I've been curious about these tubes for use in the Modwright Transporter, as they could represent a viable alternative to NOS 6SN7's. I bought a pair a few weeks ago and had them sent to MW for Dan to check over and confirm that they were compatible tubes for the TP. Dan received them just over a week ago and gave the green light to use them :thumb:. He likes them so much that he listened in his home system over a weekend and they're now doing the rounds with the MW guys! Guess I'll see them one day [-o<
I'll compare them with my TSRP 6SN7's, along with the 7N7's, 6F8G's............etc, etc and report back.
Phil
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Gentlemen,
My $0.02... I highly encourage all of you to try some of the great, USA-made tubes froms the 40's, 50's & 60's. Over the last 10 years, I've collected quite a few (all different brands) & they're terrific sounding. I've found many of them at garage sales (pennies per tube) & actually eBay at bargain prices. Take note on the off brands (Hammond / Baldwin, etc. that have been pre-screened for musicality!!!)
Here's a link (no affliation) on descriptions as well as three YouTube Videos on the 6SN7's... great stuff!!! Scroll all the way down for videos.
http://www.audiotubes.com/6sn7.htm (http://www.audiotubes.com/6sn7.htm)
Audios,
Pete
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Thanks Pete. I'm a Sylvania, Tungsol, kinda guy. Love that tube. I'm thinking of modding the amp to use a 6SN7 instead of the 5687 for the driver tube. The new Sophia 211s have opened up finally. In the beginning say first 100 hours I was beginning to think they were a bit soft and mushy like your experience with their 300B Meshplate, after 200 hours BINGO!
I was using GE211s before as well as RCAs 211s, before the Sophia arrived. The input tube and driver tubes were selected for those tubes. The setup I used for the RCA seems to work out best. A Mullard 1950s blackplate 188cc [ input] and a Tungsol round plate 5687 [driver]. With the RCA 211 a Siemens NOS 6DJ8 [input]and the same Tungsol 5687.
For my Loesch Preamp the output tube makes all the difference. For phono a Tungsol 5687 is the clear winner. When listening to Cd's an Amperex Orange Globe 6DJ8 or Phillips Mini watt [ RCA 211] takes it a Mullard 6DJ8 [ GE 211] takes it. Love dem tubes.
charles
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Hmm, I thought these weren't compatible with the MW Transporter. See this thread:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=56360.msg642779#msg642779 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=56360.msg642779#msg642779)
am I missing something? :)
Tony
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Hmm, I thought these weren't compatible with the MW Transporter. See this thread:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=56360.msg642779#msg642779 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=56360.msg642779#msg642779)
am I missing something? :)
Tony
Tony,
I know that Phil will respond. Phil has had the tubes shipped directly to Dan Wright for his approval to use in the Transporter. Apparently, Dan has given his approval and eventually Phil will compare them to Vintage Tubes to include the TungSol Round Plates. Based on the tube rolling that many of us have conducted with the Transporter the TungSol Round Plates currently are considered the best of the best for the Transporter. Hopefully, Phil will tell us that these new production tubes are as good in his system.
Ken
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There was some confusion because this review:
http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/shuguang_treasures_cv181_e.html
claims the tube's specs are different than the spec sheet published on grantfidelity's website:
http://grantfidelity.com/site/files/shuguang%20treasure%20tube%20spec%20cv-181.pdf
Apparently old vintage CV181 have lower max plate and higher filament current than 6sn7 spec, limiting their use as 6sn7 replacement to circuits that can handle the higher filament and which don't push the plate voltage too high.
It could be that the filament was changed in response to the tnt-audio.com review's warning, and Phil's conversation with Ian predates the change.
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Ken's correct - Dan tested these under load in the TP and they hit the 6SN7 spec right in the middle. I made the AC post, as philistine, based on another TP owner on AC having an issue. A few weeks ago I took a fresh look at the Treasure spec on the Grant website, and compared it against the 6SN7 spec on the Duncan Amps website. The spec looked identical and Dan's confirmed this in situ.
The rationale beyond this is to find an available 6SN7 that is as good as or, hopefully better than, the best of the NOS tubes that are available (such as the Tung Sol Round Plate).
I managed to wrestle them out of Dan's hands, he's impressed with them, and they're currently on their way to me. I'll update the progress on these.
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Awesome! Can't wait to hear your impression Phil. Then Ken will want to get some, and then I can try them in my amps!
:yay2:
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thanks for the update ;-)
Tony
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They've arrived.
Here are a few photos to get Ken's juices flowing: :thumb:
[smg id=343width=600]Black Treasure Case
[smg id=344width=600]Black Treasure Case Detail
[smg id=345width=600]
[smg id=347width=600]Audio Porn For Ken - EML 5U4G and Black Treasures :drool:
A teaser - these tubes are something special :D
Happy Thanksgiving
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Love it. Box, packing, tubes. :drool:
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:duh :duh :duh :duh :duh
Thanks Phil! :roll:
I don't know that I am really excited to hear more but being addicted to this hobby and especially tubes please provide the details after you spend some time with them.
Ken
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OK, initial feedback:
System:
Modwright Transporter (EML 5U4G rectifier tube)
Modwright 36.5
Modwright KWA150
Salk HT3's (sorry, no veneer, just a black pearl finish)
As an opening caveat I find that tube rolling typically leads to change in sonic signature, the change might be positive in the short term but extended listening reveals if the change is beneficial and I can live with the change. So I'll just give a first impression and follow up later with an extended update.
Packaging
The photographs don't really do the product justice, the box has a matte black finish and didn't show well with a flash. It's a good start to get a professionally packaged product, as opposed to what I'm used to - old tubes wrapped in newspaper in a recycled box from an EBay seller 8-[
First Impressions
I've had my system in limbo for a few weeks as I'm waiting for a second KWA150 and have also moved the equipment location, while this has been going on I've lost interest in listening to music. Even with Tung Sol RP 6SN7's in place the fun had gone. Last night I put the Treasures in and immediately they are very special - very three dimensional soundstage and extremely musically involving . Rolling the rectifier tube in the MWTP I find the TS 5U4G to be very clinical whereas the EML 5U4G is more organic and. This phenomenon is repeated when rolling out the TSRP for the Treasures - but even more so than the rectifier tube. I finished up with a 4 hour listening session, at crazy volume levels, these tubes are really smooth :drool:
I thought the top end may be a touch rolled off, but it may have been a more smoother top end? More prolonged listening leads me towards the view that it's smoother.
Dan didn't share his listening notes with me, on the 'leading the witness' principle. I shared notes with him last night and we're calibrated on our first impressions, he added that they are also very detailed - if he agrees with me then he must have good ears ;)
I have tried adding a second EML rectifier tube in my system, in the 36.5, but the combination of two EML's is not good - to bloated. The Treasures give me what I was looking for - the EML/Treasure combination gives me the best sound I've heard out of the TP.
I'll get back with an update, in the meantime this post is subject to client attorney privilege and cannot be used as evidence in a court of law (by Vera) when she divorces Ken for spending more money on audio toys. Shane Sangster is the principle witness :rofl:
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Thanks Phil! Allow at least 300 hours burning in, it will change more, for the better.
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I left a message with Grant Fidelity with my initial feedback - and received a message back from Ian that they're currently at the HiFi show in China but to check out these also:
http://grantfidelity.com/site/TJ_Full_music_6SN7
A new 6SN7 from TJ Full Music.
Om the topic of burn in, I read the 300 hour recommendation but have never noticed tube burn in as significant before. Maybe it's related to the new materials being used in Shuguangs manufacturing process?
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I don't know why it is so long either, or so pronounced, but I do like the results. Thanks for the TJ heads up.
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Audio Porn For Ken - EML 5U4G and Black Treasures Drool
A teaser - these tubes are something special Very Happy
Hi Phil:
Have you been able to spend more time with them and do you still believe they are better in the Transporter than the Tung-Sol Round Plates?
Ken
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Audio Porn For Ken - EML 5U4G and Black Treasures Drool
A teaser - these tubes are something special Very Happy
Hi Phil:
Have you been able to spend more time with them and do you still believe they are better in the Transporter than the Tung-Sol Round Plates?
Ken
Yes, I do believe the Treasures are better - they are significantly smoother and more musical. I've spent the last few days with the EML 5U4G and I need to work on the best rectifier/Treasure combination. The Treasures are more detailed than the TSRP but having the EML/Treasure combo puts my system slightly warm of neutral. What I've done this morning is try the Treasures with an old TS 5U4G, two reasons: to extend the life of the EML during the Treasure burn in and secondly to see if it takes the warmth out of my system. I'll let you know how it goes. My first impression, that the benefits of the Treasures are more significant than the benefits of the EML, remain - if I had to choose one then the Treasures would be the keepers. This should give an idea how good they are.
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Phil:
You are going to give the ModWright Transporter Tube Rolling Thread over on AC a whole new lease on life! I want you to know that you causing me to have another dose of Audio Nervosa. :duh
Ken
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I want you to know that you causing me to have another dose of Audio Nervosa. :duh
Excellent!!! :thumb: ;)