AudioNervosa
Systemic Development => Amplification and Preamplification => Tubes => Topic started by: Headspace on January 27, 2009, 12:32:29 PM
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Well I'm new here and just a Music & HT enthusiasist trying to upgrade my sound. Perhaps the question should be "how much do tube buffers improve your audio." Anyone out there ever wedge a tube buffer inbetween there CD player and solid state amp/receiver and receive a pleasing result? A warm fuzzy so to speak...
Do these things actually work as advertised (poor mans tube amp) or are they no replacement for just spending the money on a good tube amp to begin with? I would prefer not to if I can achieve the same results using a buffer or am I comparing apples and oranges here?
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They can improve things but not always. The problem is some (quite a few) cd players have less than optimal analog output stages. A tube buffer can add some warmth to what may be an overly dry presentation but unfortunately that doesn't really address the root problem, assuming the digital portion is well done that is.
A better way to go is to improve the analog section or use an external DAC that has both excellent digital and analog sections. There are modders who do replace the analog portions of CDP's with tube sections such as Dan Wright (ModWright) and John Tucker (Exemplar Audio) but this is usually an expensive proposition. It may be less expensive to get a new player or a new DAC assuming you like your existing player well enough as a transport.
Mike
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I haven't had (enough of an) impedance mismatch for the buffer to make a difference. I think the Squeezebox device has an unusual output and therefore benefits from a buffer in that way. (I may be wrong but I remember something about the SB3 creating a 'need' for the buffers in the first place.) Any time there is a mismatch, the buffer seems to help the sound.
I don't believe it is the intent of a buffer to act as a preamp. I think it 'can' but the results will vary depending on the properties of the source and the amp. Plus, you'd have a volume knob and that's it. 1 source, 1 output. If that's enough of a pre for you, a tubed DAC and a nice alps pot (passive pre) might be another option... The premise of a buffer used as a pre vs. a passive pre seems similar to me, where you don't know what will be a synergistic match... I could be wrong, I'm not an EE.
If you can borrow one and see what it does, I'd encourage you to try.
-C
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Now when you gentlemen are referring to an external DAC to improve sonics would this Pacific Valve qualify or not?
http://www.pacificvalve.us/LTDAC60M.html
I'm running a Pioneer Elite DV-47AI Universal Player as my main all around workhorse. Indeed it's more than a bit dry for music but regarding my budget I'm not Rockefeller. I have no pre/pro rig, just a Pioneer Elite VSX 56TXi Receiver.
Would it be reasonable to wedge something similar to this DAC inbetween my player and receiver to improve sonics?
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I personally do not know. You have a DAC in your cd player and in your receiver. You can try using either by: 1- Connecting the RCA jacks from the cd player to the receiver (uses cdp's dac) or,
2- Connect the digital out from the cdp to the receiver (uses the receiver's dac)
The source is a good place to start but also a good place to end when doing a system setup. If your speakers are ideally located, using a good method for setup and you've got the best amplification you can get for them, then the source is a good place to look for changes.
That said, a receiver will sound dry sometimes. What have you done to determine it's the cdp/source that's causing the unwanted sound qualities?
-C
PS, yes the link you referenced is an external DAC, and would be considered a fair-priced one also.. not cheap, not ridiculously expensive, gets the job done nicely.
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According to reviews, the Elite series is among the best in consumer HT gear. But universal player / receiver is still limited by the swiss army knife role it plays. It is not a dedicated stereo system, and is built to compete in the HT marketplace, priced lower than perfectionist 2 channel gear.
Like all consumer disc players, your DVD player can be modified to improve its performance. There is a standard approach when modifying digital sources - upgrade the power supply, sample clock, and output stage. These are are all ripe for improvement. Example:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=585918
Reference Audio Mods does this kind of work, are reputable, and they currently list the big brother of your player in their repertoire. You might contact them to see if they would be willing to do same mods to your player. You might also find that buying a cheapo player like Oppo would give you more bang for the buck in mods without risking the value of your Pioneer Elite player. Oppo has been modded 1000's of times, it's a known commodity and holds its own value as modded. Your Pioneer would become almost worthless if it were modded, IMO, while the Oppo deserves to be modded. ;)
I don't know much about the receiver, but Elite series have recieved some decent reviews, so all I can say is run the best source you can into the receiver as analog, then set the receiver to the most innocuous settings possible. There may be a setting like Direct, or Pure Direct (Onkyo) which shuts off all digital processing and bass management which will harm the sound of a great source component. Even the Stereo setting on my Onkyo receiver includes bass management and digital crossover so I must choose Pure Direct to get "amps only." These actually did sound pretty good on my big speakers. Read your manual to figure out what setting equals pure amp with no processing for your Pioneer receiver.
Carlman is right, there is a small chance that the receivers DAC is decent, but I wouldn't put money that it could come close to a modestly modified external player, or external DAC. Beware of the low priced DACs though, there are zillions of them now, and not all are really as good as the hype. Tubes don't always mean good sound. Do your research and ask for opinions and advice before you buy something - get it used if you can.
If you are using the wires that came with your Pioneer equipment, consider upgrading the connection wires. It makes a huge difference, proportional to the money you spend. I always recommend JPS brand wires, but there are many good aftermarket wire companies. AudioQuest, Shunyata, Kimber, all make quality wires in the lower price brackets. I'm not talking about Monster cable. Blue Jeans cable is another good custom wire maker, though not as focused on high end audio as the other brands. In stereophile there is an ad running for years from a mail order company selling audioquest speaker wire really cheap.
Lastly you haven't mentioned your speakers. Wires and source mods are important, but speakers are most important to the sound of your system. They have the hardest job and good speaker design is the blackest art in all of audio science. While many of us nutcase audiophiles migh scoff at paying $10,000 for a cd player (they do exist) that much for speakers is not uncommon because of the big effect the peakers have on the overal sound quality, they deserve more money than other components. Again, used market is the place to start. If you are using a brand of speakers specifically marketed for home theater then you will be missing out on some of the subtle pleasures of high end 2 channel audio. Using a receiver as an amplifier will limit what you can achieve also, but not as much as the speakers. What speakers do you have?
What is your budget for upgrading your system?
..... and, Welcome to AudioNervosa, Headspace!
Rich
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Ah the quandry of it all. Trying to achieve caviar taste on a beer budget. One thing I do enjoy on my Pioneer Receiver is listening in the 7 channel stereo mode and DVD-A & multichannel SACD. Now I don't know if I can reach the heights of the 2 channel purist but hey it's fun trying.
For speakers I'm running some Altec A-7's & Heathkit AS-101 (basically Altec Valancias) on the front end, a Nature N-6 center channel, Altec Model 14's on the surround channels & Altec Santana 2 on the surround back channels and an American Audio PXW-15P subwoofer. Big speakers that serve both HT & music listening. They also serve to infuriate my wife.
The modded Oppo may be an option as is perhaps a tubed CD player. A second player makes sense. I have a love/hate relationship with my DV-47Ai yet am not ready to part with it. Pioneers I Link is a fabulous thing and it's not bad with dvd playback and an alright multi channel player.
I know I need to upgrade to better speaker wire. I'm running fairly standard 14 guage wire as I have some fairly long runs and couldn't afford umpteen dollars per meter. Thanks for the speaker wire suggestions and the welcome. A lot of collective knowledge around this place. Why does it take Roger Waters 16+ years to put out another rock record? I am not amused.
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Yeah, if you like to listen to surround music discs, you are already on the right track.
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OK new here... But I want to chime in here.
I've been using tubes a long time now and
IMO a tube buffer/preamp in a cdplayer is a huge improvement over the op-amp type of preamp most are made with.
If you take the signal right from the DAC output of the cdplayer and use a simple gain stage tube preamp the sound is a lot better.
Huge improvement over the crappy op-amps most manufactures use.
I believe its well worth it to convert a cdplayer to tube output.
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OK new here... But I want to chime in here.
I've been using tubes a long time now and
IMO a tube buffer/preamp in a cdplayer is a huge improvement over the op-amp type of preamp most are made with.
If you take the signal right from the DAC output of the cdplayer and use a simple gain stage tube preamp the sound is a lot better.
Huge improvement over the crappy op-amps most manufactures use.
I believe its well worth it to convert a cdplayer to tube output.
Welcome aboard!
While I agree that a tube output stage in a CD player will most likely be a huge improvement over a cheap op-amp based stage, I believe what they are talking about here is an outboard tube buffer device that would go between the analog output of the CD and the input of your preamp. As such it would not replace the crappy op-amp stage,but rather would be fed by it. Thus the improvement over the op amp stage is limited by the fact that the op amp stage is still in the circuit, thus leading to the comments that to buffer could make an improvement, but there is no guarantee (kind of under the garbage in, garbage out theory.)
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Yo, Headspace and Frankthetech - welcome to AN. :thumb:
SN
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Don't put a tube buffer there. I had that universal player until i dropped it (by accident). It was a good transport also. I like the Pioneer house sound. Don't tamper with it. You can do other things like running it straight into the Elite receiver and using the Receiver's dac. already mentioned re cabling and stuff like that.
I just bought a Brand new Onkyo 737 Receiver for my upstairs. I am going to put a new fuse in it. Put a new power cable on it. I don't need any interconnects. I will see how it goes.
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:rofl:
Ok who necro'ed this thread? I replied to the OP and he may even be dead. :rofl:
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Yes I have wedged a tubed buffer in between a CDP nd preamp. A Promithius buffer.
An instant improvement but not all around. loved the top end and midrange however the bass suffered. Bass became a tad looser and boomy.
So decided to try a tubed CDP a Lector 7T. No looking back. Gave me everything I desired with tube flavor and much better sonics all around. Lesson learned.
The Elite series has a a character of slightly warm so it must be another culprit.
Have you experimented with cables at all ? first try speaker cables then ICs. Biggest change will come from speaker cables.
It could also be that the settings on the receiver are just not right.
Response Audio for a buffer if you want to try one. TWL for cables as a starting point.
BTW welcome Headspace and frankthetech
charles
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I'm very happy with the SS equipment I've been using the last couple years. I think they give me everything I love about tubes without the drama and frustration. I do enjoy tube amps but have no desire to jump into that psychological quagmire again any time soon.
I have never heard a stand alone tube buffer that did not damage the signal more than it helped. But I have heard some great tube preamps and amps, so I know it's not the tubes' fault.
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Yes I have wedged a tubed buffer in between a CDP nd preamp. A Promithius buffer.
An instant improvement but not all around. loved the top end and midrange however the bass suffered. Bass became a tad looser and boomy.
So decided to try a tubed CDP a Lector 7T. No looking back. Gave me everything I desired with tube flavor and much better sonics all around. Lesson learned.
The Elite series has a a character of slightly warm so it must be another culprit.
Have you experimented with cables at all ? first try speaker cables then ICs. Biggest change will come from speaker cables.
It could also be that the settings on the receiver are just not right.
Response Audio for a buffer if you want to try one. TWL for cables as a starting point.
BTW welcome Headspace and frankthetech
charles
:rofl: you too
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I'm very happy with the SS equipment I've been using the last couple years. I think they give me everything I love about tubes without the drama and frustration. I do enjoy tube amps but have no desire to jump into that psychological quagmire again any time soon.
I have never heard a stand alone tube buffer that did not damage the signal more than it helped. But I have heard some great tube preamps and amps, so I know it's not the tubes' fault.
Rich I think that is because nobody would go through the effort and expense of adding a tube buffer to a unit that sounded great already. It just wouldn't make sense. So what to end up with is a tube stage trying to cover up the less than stellar performance of the unit it is buffering. What is the old saying about trying to put lipstick on a pig?
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Being intended as a cosmetic to cover up inexpensive gear, they don't cost enough to be much good.
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OK all I said was IMO its an improvement over what was in there to begin with.
To say that tubes color the sound, sure it sounds different.
But I defend that a 100 transistors will have some effect on the sound too.
Each op-amp contains lots of transistors and there are many op-amps in the signal path from the DAC to the RCA outputs on any given CD player.
So it all depends on what you like.
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OK all I said was IMO its an improvement over what was in there to begin with.
To say that tubes color the sound, sure it sounds different.
But I defend that a 100 transistors will have some effect on the sound too.
Each op-amp contains lots of transistors and there are many op-amps in the signal path from the DAC to the RCA outputs on any given CD player.
So it all depends on what you like.
You are 100% right. Everything colors the sound in some way. I hope you don't take any of what has been said as a personal affront to your post. One of the great things that goes on here at AN is the free exchange of ideas in a brainstorming type fashion. we throw a lot of stuff out on a conceptual basis but in the end you are absolutely right, it is all about what makes you happy in your system. Something can be 1000% technically correct, but if you don't like the way it sounds, then oh well. This hobby is all about building a system they make YOU happy, nobody else.
That said I think the way the discussion started to roll was talking about whether it is better add a tube buffer to a sub par cd player or to just buy a better CD player in the first place or likewise, if you like the tube sound would it be better to buy a player built with a tube output from the ground up.
Again, each of our circumstances are different, and what might make sense to one person might not make sense in another situation (or even to the same person at two different points in time.)
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OK new here... But I want to chime in here.
I've been using tubes a long time now and
IMO a tube buffer/preamp in a cdplayer is a huge improvement over the op-amp type of preamp most are made with.
If you take the signal right from the DAC output of the cdplayer and use a simple gain stage tube preamp the sound is a lot better.
Huge improvement over the crappy op-amps most manufactures use.
I believe its well worth it to convert a cdplayer to tube output.
Frank, I agree with what you're saying here. Tubifying a component is a nice way to go.
My vitriol was randomly directed at the stand alone component products called "tube buffers" which come in their own box, with their own power supply, fancy case, more cables, etc. They are often added to a system to cover up the bad sound of the source component preceding it. Often a bad source with an opamp has plenty of power to drive the signal, so a buffer is not what is required to improve the sound. The tube buffer is usually a warming device that adds distortion to cover up something bad. It is usually a waste of money that doesn't cure the real problem. I used a Burson Buffer once, for about a week. My friend came over and said let's pull it out to see what it's doing. Shazamm! The clouds parted and all was well. Unbelievable. So many people bought that pos when Squeezebox 3 mods were all the rage.
Your idea is to rip out the shitty opamp buffer circuit and replace it with something that sounds nicer, a real upgrade and improvement, not just an expensive band aid.
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Ive got a Sony CD player that I converted to tube outputs.
Left the old RCA outputs in place so I could switch back an forth to check the difference. Now I only use the tube outs.
Hard to say why, but to me it just sounds better, a lot better!
I used a 12au7 with a gain of 5 or 6. Well worth doing. My cost to do this was about $75 in parts. Labor, well its my time so no cost, but I'd say it takes 4 hours to do, including the case mod.
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Now we are talking. If yiou are capable it is much better to replcace the crappy op-amps with a tube stage rather than just slapping one behind them. :thumb:
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Good move frankthetech. IMO for most of the CDP out there the analog board is the weak link.
It always puzzled me as to why we even need that board when a preamp is used. A simple gain stage after DA conversion just makes sense. If not using a preamp then one must accept the use of the internal analog board and volume control.
IMO just try different CDP and DACs until you find your synergy with your system. Or mod as frank has done.
Frankthetech have to ask the obvious , do you mod or repair gear as a business or just for yourself ?
charles
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I personally do like tube buffers (obviously). However, a tube buffer should not be added to a system expecting it to improve the components they are used with. If using a tube buffer between a CD player and preamp, it will not improve the performance of the CD player. It cannot bring out detail, resolution, etc. that the CD player does not already have. As mentioned, it will change the way in which these characteristics are presented. A bit more tube sound and maybe soften some of the aggressiveness that some less expensive players poses.
It will be a "different" presentation. Maybe better to you, maybe not. The weakest link in a system will always be the weakest link. A buffer will not make it better........maybe more tolerable?
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I personally do like tube buffers (obviously). However, a tube buffer should not be added to a system expecting it to improve the components they are used with. If using a tube buffer between a CD player and preamp, it will not improve the performance of the CD player. It cannot bring out detail, resolution, etc. that the CD player does not already have. As mentioned, it will change the way in which these characteristics are presented. A bit more tube sound and maybe soften some of the aggressiveness that some less expensive players poses.
It will be a "different" presentation. Maybe better to you, maybe not. The weakest link in a system will always be the weakest link. A buffer will not make it better........maybe more tolerable?
Well put Bill.
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It is just a tweak, i had one of those Musical fidelity ones. It was attempting to be a bandaid fix for shit SS. I sold it but i kept the musical fidelity watch that came with it. :lol:
It sat in the face of my system build philosophy. It didn't offer anything i liked about tubes. Just added more distortion with a bloated texture to it.
There is a technique in rpg gaming that fits and can be applied to building stereo. In on line gaming there is technique for building online characters. Its called min-maxing. Basically you take a particular attribute offered and you maximize that attribute. If you build a character around strenght. You take all strenght gear and strength talents and maximize. You rid all the gear with stuff making you faster or protective. This makes that character perform the best under strength performing activities. You basically maximise that attribute. If you don't know how to do this it basically illuminates you from raiding or participating with any serious goal minded guilds.
It's the same for stereo building imo. If you going to build a system around tubes the idea is you maximize the tube placement in gear. Basically all tubes then you can ease back on with cabling or tube changing.
So to me it does not make sense to put together an SS system then apply tubes. Its losing the initial musical intent of the system build.
There are always exceptions but i really do not believe building gear around (the possibility of) exceptions is a good method.
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Yes, I do agree that placing a tube buffer after the cdp outs and before your amp would do little to improve your sound.
As said above it might color the sound a bit toward a tube flavor, but no real improvement.
Frankthetech have to ask the obvious , do you mod or repair gear as a business or just for yourself ?
charles
No I do it mostly for myself, but have built stuff for others.
Most who hear the CD player with a tube output want one for themselves. So I do what I can to help out those looking for better sound.
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Another aspect of buffers is the quality. Trying to evaluate the full potential of a.buffer using a $200-$300 piece will not tell you everything a buffer is capable of. The MF buffer are better suited for an average, mid Fi system or when impedance matching is required. They were very nice additions to inexpensive home theater systems using receivers and DVD players.
There are some very good buffers on the market that will give you more performance and actually have the potential to show what a buffer can offer.
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I can't speak to the buffer idea as I'v never tried one.
For me it was just easier to build one into the cd player.
Still I will say that the sound quality has to be taken from the best source and then amplify from there.
IMO cd's are still the best way to store music, unlike albums they never change the way an album will scratch and wear out slowly.
Some people that I'v done this for run high end sand amps and love the sound.
My main tube amp is a KT88 PP unit I built. Great sound no doubt but will still only amplify whats put in. Input better sound and the result is even better music out.
We must tackle the quality from the source and then amplify.
I was there when tubes were being replaced by sand and sure I bought into it too. Now I'm convinced we went a step or more backwards in sound quality.
Well, just my thinking..
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Bypassing the analog op amp in the player (approx. 6db of gain) to one's outboard tube preamplifier is probably the best solution of all as it eliminates a stage. I have done it to NAD 921/925Bees with great success.
Cheers
Steve