Author Topic: voicing tubes?  (Read 2314 times)

Offline Nick B

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voicing tubes?
« on: August 13, 2021, 09:39:31 PM »
I’ve read articles over the years as to how manufacturers voice their equipment. As I’m currently trying out some Raytheon 6ns7s on my Supratek preamp, I’m appreciating the added detail and warmth. They are replacing Tung-Sols.

So I was wondering if there is any consistency as to materials used, the design, purity of the metals, etc as to really fine tuning how a certain tube can/will sound.

Also, if some of the nos tubes were so excellent, what’s involved nowadays in trying to duplicate that?

A final thought…. getting back into tubes has brought back such fond memories when I was a kid and would occasionally make trips to the store to test tubes. As I vaguely recall, even the grocery store we frequented had a tester. But that was so very long ago.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2021, 09:44:30 PM by Nick B »
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Offline P.I.

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Re: voicing tubes?
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2021, 11:22:56 PM »
Playing with tubes is great fun.  Tube rolling is educational and can be rewarding.

Additional tube to try is the RCA 5692 red base.  Very musical while retrieving more detail.

Another adventure are tube dampers.  From hi-temp 'O' rings to Herbie's Tube Dampers and beyond.

Enjoy!
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline Nick B

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Re: voicing tubes?
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2021, 11:33:27 PM »
Playing with tubes is great fun.  Tube rolling is educational and can be rewarding.

Additional tube to try is the RCA 5692 red base.  Very musical while retrieving more detail.

Another adventure are tube dampers.  From hi-temp 'O' rings to Herbie's Tube Dampers and beyond.

Enjoy!

Well, you were right on the 7308s  :thumb: I was wondering about tube dampers and wii head over to Herbies. Have been happy with their stuff so far. Was looking at RCA 6NS7s as Jack had mentioned them. Will take a look at the RCA 5692s right now

PS  just found this link…. gulp 😳  :D
https://www.tubemuseum.org/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=5692+RCA+RED+PAIR
« Last Edit: August 13, 2021, 11:42:39 PM by Nick B »
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Offline James Edward

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Re: voicing tubes?
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2021, 04:51:32 AM »
 I recall reading a theory on why NOS tubes can sound different or better is that manufacturers used some metals and materials that cannot be used today. I think it had to do with their toxicity?
There are plenty of ‘Superfund’ sites cleaning up what used to be acceptable in manufacturing, so maybe the theory has got some truth to it…
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Offline BobM

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Re: voicing tubes?
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2021, 05:13:17 AM »
careful with those tube dampers. They might clear some things up but they can also have a side effect of dampening down dynamics. YMMV
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Offline steve

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Re: voicing tubes?
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2021, 08:20:08 PM »
Playing with tubes is great fun.  Tube rolling is educational and can be rewarding.

Additional tube to try is the RCA 5692 red base.  Very musical while retrieving more detail.

Another adventure are tube dampers.  From hi-temp 'O' rings to Herbie's Tube Dampers and beyond.

Enjoy!

Well, you were right on the 7308s  :thumb: I was wondering about tube dampers and wii head over to Herbies. Have been happy with their stuff so far. Was looking at RCA 6NS7s as Jack had mentioned them. Will take a look at the RCA 5692s right now

PS  just found this link…. gulp 😳  :D
https://www.tubemuseum.org/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=5692+RCA+RED+PAIR

Gulp. Which is why designers/engineers should have already been designing specifically around new tubes. Instead, new designs still need NOS for maximum fidelity, which cost and arm and a leg.

Imo, great sound should be for everyone, not just the rich.

steve

 
« Last Edit: August 16, 2021, 07:18:27 AM by steve »
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Offline rollo

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Re: voicing tubes?
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2021, 08:14:12 AM »
Playing with tubes is great fun.  Tube rolling is educational and can be rewarding.

Additional tube to try is the RCA 5692 red base.  Very musical while retrieving more detail.

Another adventure are tube dampers.  From hi-temp 'O' rings to Herbie's Tube Dampers and beyond.

Enjoy!

Well, you were right on the 7308s  :thumb: I was wondering about tube dampers and wii head over to Herbies. Have been happy with their stuff so far. Was looking at RCA 6NS7s as Jack had mentioned them. Will take a look at the RCA 5692s right now

PS  just found this link…. gulp 😳  :D
https://www.tubemuseum.org/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=5692+RCA+RED+PAIR

Gulp. Which is why designers/engineers should have already been designing specifically around new tubes. Instead, new designs still need NOS for maximum fidelity, which cost and arm and a leg.

Imo, great sound should be for everyone, not just the rich.

steve

   Excellent point Steve. Besides the cost availability as well. OK lets say you get the sound of all times with certain tubes. Three to for years down the line they require replacement. If you did not buy multiple pairs you will lose "THAT" sound. I had RCA 211 output tube which I loved. Not available and if so 3K a pair. No other 211 comes close.  My advice , Unless one can obtain multiple pairs stay away.


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Offline P.I.

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Re: voicing tubes?
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2021, 09:07:56 AM »

Gulp. Which is why designers/engineers should have already been designing specifically around new tubes. Instead, new designs still need NOS for maximum fidelity, which cost and arm and a leg.

Imo, great sound should be for everyone, not just the rich.

steve
Absolutely!

The new issues of old tube designs from EH (Gold Lion, Mullard, Svetlana, etc) and JI along with the various Chinese tubes are not the same as NOS tubes.  The manufacturing differences dictate revised designs. 

Well said.
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Offline Nick B

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Re: voicing tubes?
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2021, 09:50:52 AM »
I found these links recently when doing a few searches https://www.effectrode.com/news/secrets-tube-alchemists/
https://www.westernelectric.com/300b
The whole tube manufacturing process fascinates me, especially what was accomplished decades ago and what we hold in high esteem nowadays. Charles makes a great point with getting used to superb sound and then not being able to replace/afford when you need more.
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Offline steve

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Re: voicing tubes?
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2021, 08:40:18 PM »

Gulp. Which is why designers/engineers should have already been designing specifically around new tubes. Instead, new designs still need NOS for maximum fidelity, which cost and arm and a leg.

Imo, great sound should be for everyone, not just the rich.

steve
Absolutely!

The new issues of old tube designs from EH (Gold Lion, Mullard, Svetlana, etc) and JI along with the various Chinese tubes are not the same as NOS tubes.  The manufacturing differences dictate revised designs. 

Well said.

Yes. They all have different distortion parameters and material quality.

The JJ small tubes have 1/9th (-19db) the harmonic distortion of any other tube, NOS included, under same conditions. The E88cc is the best tube I have ever used, but needs the best design and special attention to parts quality. The best is always critical in nature.

ps. I have PQs, lots of Bugleboys D, O, A, Telefunken and Siemen, and prefer the JJs for the  most accurate sonics.
But it is also the most revealing. Use a bad part and it will show.

cheers

steve
« Last Edit: February 22, 2022, 10:10:18 PM by steve »
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Offline Jack

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Re: voicing tubes?
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2021, 10:08:42 PM »
Nick

For many years Mick at Supratek was supplying and voicing his preamps with NOS Russian Military versions of the 6SN7 and that was what was in mine when I received it in December of 1999.  Those that were built into 2020 like yours were shipped with current production tubes as Mick ran into supply issues with the NOS tubes after the pandemic took hold.  That Russian version appeared to be their take on the Sylvania 6SN7GTB and to me sounded a lot like it from the two pair I tried.  Whether or not the new production Tung Sol sounds at all like the NOS GTB which I have three pair of I don't know as the only current production 6SN7 I have ever listened to were the gold pin EH's that Dan Wright supplied with the LS-100.  I used them for preamp break in and then took them out and replaced them with NOS. Not a bad tube but too forward for my tastes.  The much lauded Shuguang WE copies that came in the Don Sachs preamp I bought from Jeff(audiogem) were noisy and to me awful sounding and they lasted a day then back in the box.  A quad which the Sachs takes were almost $300 retail.  The Supratek preamps do not run the 6SN7's very hard at all and there are many people still running the Russian tubes Mick provided a decade later with no sound degradation so once you find a good NOS tested pair you like then you may never need to change them again unless like me you do it just to change things up.  I change up periodically between RCA VT-231's, Raytheon VT-231's and Hytron 6SN7GT's depending on the amp and speaker in use. In your case you just need to find the signature you like in combination with the Carrera's and the Van Alstine and there is no right or wrong just what your ears like.  The two pair I sent you are each slightly on either side of neutral so they should sound different.  While the 5692's can be a good alternative in the right set up they do run hotter and will have a shorter lifespan plus the cost factor.  This is a generalized chart showing how they run in the same piece of gear.

To ensure good tube reliability you should probably run a tube at 70% or less of its maximum plate dissipation.

Using the general audio application of 250 plate volts, a bias of 8 volts resulting in 9ma of current and plate dissipation of 2.25 Watts, we find:

5692 - runs 43 % over maximum rating – It isn’t a 10,000 hour tube when you run it this HOT!
6SN7GT - runs 64% of maximum – coasting and liking it
6SN7GTA/GTB - runs 45% of maximum – Hardly turned on, may outlast you. evil_smiley.gif
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Offline Nick B

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Re: voicing tubes?
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2021, 11:39:07 PM »
Jack,

Thanks for the detailed response and history. As I’m basically a tube novice, the 6NS7 based Supratek has been such a very pleasant surprise. I much prefer the Raytheons I just started using to the TungSols that came in my unit. The additional detail is very enjoyable. I’ve been reading many comments about tube rolling the various 6NS7s and variations and the prices seem pretty reasonable. As long as the tubes run on the cooler side, I’m ok spending a bit of money to fine tune the sound. Over the last few years, I’ve been leaning more to the “warm” side of the musical spectrum.

As to 6NS7GTAs and GTBs, I don’t mind aging along with (or being outlived by) the tubes as long as they provide blissful sound 🎶🎶
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