Where do you guys need help?

[DRN]

I keep asking myself "what am I going to futz with next?"
Futz always means $$$

[tmazz]

I keep asking myself "what am I going to futz with next?"
Futz always means $$$

I consider myself lucky when it is only $$$. To often it ends up being $$$$$. 

[mdconnelly]

Hi Nick, you might want to look into acquiring calibrated microphone and room measurement software like REW.
This combination will give you accurate information on frequency response and room modes which is not subject to misinterpretation in the way that conclusions drawn from listening to test CDs can be.
See links below.
Calibrated microphones from Cross Spectrum Labs.
http://www.cross-spectrum.com/
Calibrated Dayton UMM-6 USB microphone
http://cross-spectrum.com/measurement/calibrated_umm6.html
FREE!  REW room measurement software.
https://www.roomeqwizard.com/
Forum for REW, VERY HELPFUL
https://www.avnirvana.com/forums/official-rew-room-eq-wizard-support-forum.10/
Scotty

Thanks, Scotty,
I've never experimented using a mic and software. Good links and fun reading. I'm searching for a cheaper usb mic..found some good prices. Roon has a parametric equalizer and maybe thats a good place to start experimenting.
Nick

Nick,  you can pick up the miniDSP UMIK-1 mic at PartsExpress.com for $85 instead of $96 on Amazon.   I bought one about a month ago but so far haven't even had a chance to take it out of the box.   But, it seems like it coupled with REW and an intense learning curve and you too can learn to measure your system and room.   I'm hoping to get to it soon (soon being relative ... maybe sometime in the next couple months

[rollo]

Steve glad to decided to come along. Glad I asked you. Scotty you are IMHO an expert in so many areas, please join in anytime. So far Dave, Steve, Scotty for the technical design stuff. Brian for acoustics. So far so good.


charles

[dBe]

I wish I were as dumb and as much of an idiot as Steve.

Don

We can't all be as gifted as P.I. and me. 

Cheers

Steve

I'm beginning to think that perhaps you may someday earn membership in the Audio Wit Club.  Don is "Nit" .  I am "Dim" .  You have to choose your own first name... And it has to be well earned I the Arena of Duh.  Choose wisely, Grasshopper   

What a great bunch we have here!   

[rollo]

  Will be designing an audio room using our two car garage. Should I begin with the "Golden Ratio for room dimensions ? Interior dimensions now are 17'x 18'-6". Roof high point occurs along 18'-6" dimension. Planning new marine ply floor over wood sleepers which rest on concrete slab.


charles

[steve]

I wish I were as dumb and as much of an idiot as Steve.

Don

We can't all be as gifted as P.I. and me. 

Cheers

Steve

I'm beginning to think that perhaps you may someday earn membership in the Audio Wit Club.  Don is "Nit" .  I am "Dim" .  You have to choose your own first name... And it has to be well earned I the Arena of Duh.  Choose wisely, Grasshopper   

What a great bunch we have here!   

  I am rolling on the floor. Truthfully, I rarely come up with a good ones dBe. I offend much more than I succeed, so  dimwit is probably more me than anything when it comes to wit.

Cheers

Steve

[richidoo]

  Will be designing an audio room using our two car garage. Should I begin with the "Golden Ratio for room dimensions ? Interior dimensions now are 17'x 18'-6". Roof high point occurs along 18'-6" dimension. Planning new marine ply floor over wood sleepers which rest on concrete slab.

17x18.5 is close to a square so there will be some huddled modes. With a flat 9 foot ceiling the modal coincidences get challenging, but nothing much below 60Hz to worry about. Wood garage construction will allow most of the bass energy to penetrate the walls to exterior dissipation. If your ceiling is peaked, or tilted so it's not a constant height all the better. If it's flat at any normal height other than 9 feet you're fine.  As the room dimensions gets larger the modal problems get less. If you have exposed ceiling rafters, listen closely to how it sounds before deciding to fill them with insulation or sheetrock over it. Exposed joist ceiling actually sounds very nice, I guess it's kind of a big diffusor.   Read Floyd Toole's book with an open mind before making any acoustic treatment decisions. Some reflections sound good, learn how to use them to benefit. Definitely paint the slab and any other concrete with drylok before covering it, to keep down moisture mold stink, then stuff the joist bays pretty densely between floor and slab. Alternatively, if the slab is flat enough, put your plywood down on the slab, with thin suspension cushion layer, as did Carlman. His basement room is excellent, solid floor without bounce or resonance is a benefit, take advantage of it if you can. If it is not flat maybe pour a thin slab on top to flatten it rather than lose 8+ inches of height.

[Nick B]

I wish I were as dumb and as much of an idiot as Steve.

Don

We can't all be as gifted as P.I. and me. 

Cheers

Steve

I'm beginning to think that perhaps you may someday earn membership in the Audio Wit Club.  Don is "Nit" .  I am "Dim" .  You have to choose your own first name... And it has to be well earned I the Arena of Duh.  Choose wisely, Grasshopper   

What a great bunch we have here!   

Dave,
I love the Stooges!! Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk 😂 I see it as intellectual, sophisticated humor....well, maybe not quite. My wife, however, is not of the same persuasion. She leaves the room quite promptly when I'm watching 🏃🏾‍♀️🏃🏾‍♀️🏃🏾‍♀️
Nick

[Nick B]

The testing process is fun...to a certain extent. It can become mentally fatiguing over time. I couldn't be a reviewer in the long run. As I'm achieving such good results over the last year or two, I am starting to yearn for a more organic or should I say distorted sound. I want more of the richness of the human voice and the texture of a violin. Which component changes will be able to deliver that, I don't know. In fact, I've never had that truly organic sound in the past...and I go back to the 80s with my audio hobby... nervosa.
I don't have a problem at all going through the process again. But there's always that issue of selling, buying different components to achieve that. It is, though, quite satisfying to be where I'm at right now

Nick, I have not heard you say either way, was wondering if you have exhausted tweaking the speaker placement?

Cheers

Steve

Steve,
I haven't really messed with it. I have a very large cabinet in the living room and I have virtually no flexibility in placement until I sell the cabinet. I should post some pics showing my room layout...Iirc, my SP Techs also don't like being placed close the the back walls, so that's another limiting factor there. I think I can get an increase in performance down the road, but who knows. If I can figure out room acoustics at some point, maybe Brian might have some products that would be helpful.
I've chimed in a few times recently re subs. I'm thinking if I get smaller 2 ways than the SPs that gives me more flexibility with room placement, then I could add one powered sub. That would get me a smaller footprint and make my wife happy as well. She thinks the SP Tech speakers and stands are ugly and I'd agree with her to some extent (sorry Bob Smith! )
I've not reasearched small speakers, but have talked with Greg at GR over at AC. He had some suggestions, but can't recall the models right now.  That might be an option. But I'd have to have the cabinets made. Of course, there's always the issue of what I can get for the SP Techs and what the new/used replacements would cost....darn
Nick

[P.I.]

If you have a little more time you can listen subconsciously. You just listen to music for fun, and you will notice things about the sound that annoy you, write them down. If it doesn't appear again then it's just you getting used to a change and the annoyance fades away with familiarity. If it gets worse and you start noticing it all the time and it doesn't eventually fade out then it's something to work on or upgrade.

If you listen excitedly to an upgrade for a day or two, then find you're not listening at all, have no desire to listen, then could be your change killed it and you need to put  it back the way it was and try again.

Point being, if you tell your subconscious to tune the system, it will, by informing you of needed changes through feelings and noticing subtle things that you might not have heard before. In the end, it's the subconscious that listens and does everything anyway, it is what you're trying to "please." Music hastens alpha brain waves which open the door between conscious mind and subconscious which is where the creation of our lives happens. Listening to music isn't just for fun, although the action of creation is the funnest thing you can do.

Pleasuring up the sound with yummy distortion like tubes, paper cones, vinyl, transformers, etc allows the music to work that much more powerfully to induce alpha and even theta brainwaves, with practice, thus making imagination and prayer done during listening 1000 times more powerful in creating your world. Pay attention to the feelings and hunches you have about your system. Going for extreme detail and low distortion reinforces beta brainwaves, which pull you away from alpha. To each his own, we all use the stereo for different purpose. Some to get into alpha, some to avoid it.  The room acoustic if understood and used to your advantage can beautify the sound to hasten and deepen trance alpha state. Read Floyd Toole's book before you go plastering the walls with FG to kill the beautiful reverb in the name of lowering distortion.

OmniMic is a nice and easy measuring system, with USB mic, software by Liberty Instruments (Bill Waslo) and support on PE forum and diyaudio.com for $300.

One of my criteria is what I call "the other room"...  How does the music sound from another room close to where you listen?  I can guarantee if you can't pat your foot in the kitchen fixing dinner, then probably something is amiss.

As an empiricst (as well as measurement guy - measurements get us close) the if/then experience is paramount in my estimation.  It was the "if/then" that got me in trouble in another lifetime, but that is water under the bridge.

I love it when I get to the "I dunno" point with a new whatever.  That place is where the quality time appraisals come into play for me, because I know that I'm 98% "there" with whatever I am auditioning and / or changing.  Another term is 'sweet misery'.   

+1 on Liberty Instruments and Bill Waslo.  One of the good guys.

[steve]

The testing process is fun...to a certain extent. It can become mentally fatiguing over time. I couldn't be a reviewer in the long run. As I'm achieving such good results over the last year or two, I am starting to yearn for a more organic or should I say distorted sound. I want more of the richness of the human voice and the texture of a violin. Which component changes will be able to deliver that, I don't know. In fact, I've never had that truly organic sound in the past...and I go back to the 80s with my audio hobby... nervosa.
I don't have a problem at all going through the process again. But there's always that issue of selling, buying different components to achieve that. It is, though, quite satisfying to be where I'm at right now

Nick, I have not heard you say either way, was wondering if you have exhausted tweaking the speaker placement?

Cheers

Steve

Steve,
I haven't really messed with it. I have a very large cabinet in the living room and I have virtually no flexibility in placement until I sell the cabinet. I should post some pics showing my room layout...Iirc, my SP Techs also don't like being placed close the the back walls, so that's another limiting factor there. I think I can get an increase in performance down the road, but who knows. If I can figure out room acoustics at some point, maybe Brian might have some products that would be helpful.
I've chimed in a few times recently re subs. I'm thinking if I get smaller 2 ways than the SPs that gives me more flexibility with room placement, then I could add one powered sub. That would get me a smaller footprint and make my wife happy as well. She thinks the SP Tech speakers and stands are ugly and I'd agree with her to some extent (sorry Bob Smith! )
I've not reasearched small speakers, but have talked with Greg at GR over at AC. He had some suggestions, but can't recall the models right now.  That might be an option. But I'd have to have the cabinets made. Of course, there's always the issue of what I can get for the SP Techs and what the new/used replacements would cost....darn
Nick

Thanks Nick. My speakers are 54.5" from the wall behind the speakers (back walls?). I have found (and Audiophile Dan from Mt. Pulaski also found in his system) that rotating the speakers one way by even 1/16" inch will flesh out the voices, fill out, etc. Rotating the speakers the other way will thin out the sound. Sound stage will also change. Each speaker is different.

Just a thought Nick as no cost involved.

Cheers

Steve

[Nick B]

The testing process is fun...to a certain extent. It can become mentally fatiguing over time. I couldn't be a reviewer in the long run. As I'm achieving such good results over the last year or two, I am starting to yearn for a more organic or should I say distorted sound. I want more of the richness of the human voice and the texture of a violin. Which component changes will be able to deliver that, I don't know. In fact, I've never had that truly organic sound in the past...and I go back to the 80s with my audio hobby... nervosa.
I don't have a problem at all going through the process again. But there's always that issue of selling, buying different components to achieve that. It is, though, quite satisfying to be where I'm at right now

Nick, I have not heard you say either way, was wondering if you have exhausted tweaking the speaker placement?

Cheers

Steve

Steve,
I haven't really messed with it. I have a very large cabinet in the living room and I have virtually no flexibility in placement until I sell the cabinet. I should post some pics showing my room layout...Iirc, my SP Techs also don't like being placed close the the back walls, so that's another limiting factor there. I think I can get an increase in performance down the road, but who knows. If I can figure out room acoustics at some point, maybe Brian might have some products that would be helpful.
I've chimed in a few times recently re subs. I'm thinking if I get smaller 2 ways than the SPs that gives me more flexibility with room placement, then I could add one powered sub. That would get me a smaller footprint and make my wife happy as well. She thinks the SP Tech speakers and stands are ugly and I'd agree with her to some extent (sorry Bob Smith! )
I've not reasearched small speakers, but have talked with Greg at GR over at AC. He had some suggestions, but can't recall the models right now.  That might be an option. But I'd have to have the cabinets made. Of course, there's always the issue of what I can get for the SP Techs and what the new/used replacements would cost....darn
Nick

Thanks Nick. My speakers are 54.5" from the wall behind the speakers (back walls?). I have found (and Audiophile Dan from Mt. Pulaski also found in his system) that rotating the speakers one way by even 1/16" inch will flesh out the voices, fill out, etc. Rotating the speakers the other way will thin out the sound. Sound stage will also change. Each speaker is different.

Just a thought Nick as no cost involved.

Cheers

Steve

Thanks, Steve, i love no cost ideas! Gary has made tiny changes like that for me in the past and we've noticed differences. One time I played with the SPs and rotated them ever so slightly toward a bank of windows. I got such a wonderful presentation as if I were in a cathedral. It was also interesting as the windows  were just 2 feet from the one speaker and the other side wall was a good 6-7 feet from that speaker.
Nick

[steve]

The testing process is fun...to a certain extent. It can become mentally fatiguing over time. I couldn't be a reviewer in the long run. As I'm achieving such good results over the last year or two, I am starting to yearn for a more organic or should I say distorted sound. I want more of the richness of the human voice and the texture of a violin. Which component changes will be able to deliver that, I don't know. In fact, I've never had that truly organic sound in the past...and I go back to the 80s with my audio hobby... nervosa.
I don't have a problem at all going through the process again. But there's always that issue of selling, buying different components to achieve that. It is, though, quite satisfying to be where I'm at right now

Nick, I have not heard you say either way, was wondering if you have exhausted tweaking the speaker placement?

Cheers

Steve

Steve,
I haven't really messed with it. I have a very large cabinet in the living room and I have virtually no flexibility in placement until I sell the cabinet. I should post some pics showing my room layout...Iirc, my SP Techs also don't like being placed close the the back walls, so that's another limiting factor there. I think I can get an increase in performance down the road, but who knows. If I can figure out room acoustics at some point, maybe Brian might have some products that would be helpful.
I've chimed in a few times recently re subs. I'm thinking if I get smaller 2 ways than the SPs that gives me more flexibility with room placement, then I could add one powered sub. That would get me a smaller footprint and make my wife happy as well. She thinks the SP Tech speakers and stands are ugly and I'd agree with her to some extent (sorry Bob Smith! )
I've not reasearched small speakers, but have talked with Greg at GR over at AC. He had some suggestions, but can't recall the models right now.  That might be an option. But I'd have to have the cabinets made. Of course, there's always the issue of what I can get for the SP Techs and what the new/used replacements would cost....darn
Nick

Thanks Nick. My speakers are 54.5" from the wall behind the speakers (back walls?). I have found (and Audiophile Dan from Mt. Pulaski also found in his system) that rotating the speakers one way by even 1/16" inch will flesh out the voices, fill out, etc. Rotating the speakers the other way will thin out the sound. Sound stage will also change. Each speaker is different.

Just a thought Nick as no cost involved.

Cheers

Steve

Thanks, Steve, i love no cost ideas! Gary has made tiny changes like that for me in the past and we've noticed differences. One time I played with the SPs and rotated them ever so slightly toward a bank of windows. I got such a wonderful presentation as if I were in a cathedral. It was also interesting as the windows  were just 2 feet from the one speaker and the other side wall was a good 6-7 feet from that speaker.
Nick

I agree. Pretty neat when we obtain a break through as you did. Sense of satisfaction.

One of the things I like is controls to adjust on the speaker. We probably both have noticed that compromise enters the picture since we are usually limited by the adjustments we can make. Drivers are fixed, Xovers are hidden, venues differ, electronic components used in designing the speaker vary, sensitivity, bandwidth etc. Adjustments such as controls/switches offer some variability. I wish more speakers have controls to adjust.

Cheers
Steve

[Nick B]

Hi Nick, you might want to look into acquiring calibrated microphone and room measurement software like REW.
This combination will give you accurate information on frequency response and room modes which is not subject to misinterpretation in the way that conclusions drawn from listening to test CDs can be.
See links below.
Calibrated microphones from Cross Spectrum Labs.
http://www.cross-spectrum.com/
Calibrated Dayton UMM-6 USB microphone
http://cross-spectrum.com/measurement/calibrated_umm6.html
FREE!  REW room measurement software.
https://www.roomeqwizard.com/
Forum for REW, VERY HELPFUL
https://www.avnirvana.com/forums/official-rew-room-eq-wizard-support-forum.10/
Scotty

Thanks, Scotty,
I've never experimented using a mic and software. Good links and fun reading. I'm searching for a cheaper usb mic..found some good prices. Roon has a parametric equalizer and maybe thats a good place to start experimenting.
Nick

Nick,  you can pick up the miniDSP UMIK-1 mic at PartsExpress.com for $85 instead of $96 on Amazon.   I bought one about a month ago but so far haven't even had a chance to take it out of the box.   But, it seems like it coupled with REW and an intense learning curve and you too can learn to measure your system and room.   I'm hoping to get to it soon (soon being relative ... maybe sometime in the next couple months

Mike,
When you start working with it, let me know what you think. My wife's laptop seems like a useful device to use
Nick