Author Topic: Sparks  (Read 5763 times)

Offline richidoo

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 11144
Sparks
« on: July 03, 2007, 06:45:34 AM »
Is it OK for a rectifier to spark when turning on cold? I have a Ruby Tubes junk 5U4 with only ~50 hours on it that puts on a good firework show for about half second then is fine. Any danger to rest of amp or attached components if I continue to use this rectifier?

I have some RCA 5U4G tubes which only arc very slightly at turn on, but one of them makes a ticking sound once every 30 seconds. The interval used to be 5 minutes increasing as tube warmed up, but has been growing shorter and shorter over months so last time I ran it was ticking often.

Now is a good time for you tell me to get some new rectifiers. ;)
Thank you very much!
Rich

Offline steve

  • Audiologist
  • *
  • Posts: 1241
Re: Sparks
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2007, 01:02:03 PM »
Is it OK for a rectifier to spark when turning on cold? I have a Ruby Tubes junk 5U4 with only ~50 hours on it that puts on a good firework show for about half second then is fine. Any danger to rest of amp or attached components if I continue to use this rectifier?

I have some RCA 5U4G tubes which only arc very slightly at turn on, but one of them makes a ticking sound once every 30 seconds. The interval used to be 5 minutes increasing as tube warmed up, but has been growing shorter and shorter over months so last time I ran it was ticking often.

Now is a good time for you tell me to get some new rectifiers. ;)
Thank you very much!
Rich

Hi Rich,

     That does not sound good Rich. Is the power supply a capacitor input type? Has it done the evil deed since new, or just lately?

Steve Sammet (Owner, Electron Eng, SAS Audio Labs, Ret)
SAS "V" 39pf/m 6N copper ICs,
SAS Test Phono Stage
Acutex 320 STR Mov Iron Cart
SAS 11A Perfect Tube Preamp
SAS 25 W Ref Triode/UL Monoblocks
2 way Floor Standing Test Speakers

Offline richidoo

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 11144
Re: Sparks
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2007, 03:07:27 PM »
Thanks Steve. I don't know what 'capacitor input type' means, sorry. There are PS filter caps for each channel, but I've never looked inside the chassis.

Could there be something wrong with the amp that makes it harm rectifier tubes? They don't have bias or any other settings besides mains input, right? Smoothing filter caps are only 1400uF per side so should not pose a problem on startup. Can playing the amp too loud damage rectifier or are they usually overrated as with bridge types?

It could well be that all three bad rectifiers just had something wrong with them. None were new and only the RCA was a decent brand.

Thanks for any ideas.
Rich

Offline steve

  • Audiologist
  • *
  • Posts: 1241
Re: Sparks
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2007, 04:40:29 PM »
"Thanks Steve. I don't know what 'capacitor input type' means, sorry. There are PS filter caps for each channel, but I've never looked inside the chassis."

No problem Rich. You provided me with some info.

"Could there be something wrong with the amp that makes it harm rectifier tubes? They don't have bias or any other settings besides mains input, right? Smoothing filter caps are only 1400uF per side so should not pose a problem on startup. Can playing the amp too loud damage rectifier or are they usually overrated as with bridge types?"

"It could well be that all three bad rectifiers just had something wrong with them. None were new and only the RCA was a decent brand."

That could be. I take it that is the total capacitance, 1400uf. I wonder what the value is for the first capacitor? The value of the first capacitor is important as it, along with the choke input, is responsible for the intial peak surge current upon turn on. Sometimes, the second cap is as well if the supply has multiple chokes.

What is causing the arc is either the peak hot switching current is being exceeded upon power on. Could be all the rectifiers are bad if purchased used. Some designs are tough on rectifiers.

That design appears to be an unusual  as I have never heard of that high of capacitance power supply using tube rectifiers, unless most of the capacitance is for the smaller signal stages down the line. Might want to try some other rectifiers, or contact the manufacturer on this one.

Another idea, does it have a slow startup circuit? This gradually raises the voltage, limiting the transient peak current.

"Thanks for any ideas.
Rich"

Your Welcome.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2007, 04:49:01 PM by steve »
Steve Sammet (Owner, Electron Eng, SAS Audio Labs, Ret)
SAS "V" 39pf/m 6N copper ICs,
SAS Test Phono Stage
Acutex 320 STR Mov Iron Cart
SAS 11A Perfect Tube Preamp
SAS 25 W Ref Triode/UL Monoblocks
2 way Floor Standing Test Speakers

Offline richidoo

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 11144
Re: Sparks
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2007, 07:04:04 PM »
The manual says "The high voltage section features full wave vacuum tube (5U4) rectification, to a PI-L network."

Specs page:
"Power supply capacitors:  2 x 1200MFD@450V     6 x 10MFD@450V film & foil"

(oops not 1400)   The 1200uF are electrolytic cans on top of chassis in the 10 tube parade.

Thanks
Rich





Offline steve

  • Audiologist
  • *
  • Posts: 1241
Re: Sparks
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2007, 05:59:08 AM »
"The manual says "The high voltage section features full wave vacuum tube (5U4) rectification, to a PI-L network."

Specs page:
"Power supply capacitors:  2 x 1200MFD@450V     6 x 10MFD@450V film & foil"

(oops not 1400)   The 1200uF are electrolytic cans on top of chassis in the 10 tube parade.

Thanks
Rich"

I would bet the 10uf caps are in the front part of the power supply. I would try the original rectifier tube and see what happens. I bet the used rectifiers are well used and are about spent.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2007, 06:36:01 AM by steve »
Steve Sammet (Owner, Electron Eng, SAS Audio Labs, Ret)
SAS "V" 39pf/m 6N copper ICs,
SAS Test Phono Stage
Acutex 320 STR Mov Iron Cart
SAS 11A Perfect Tube Preamp
SAS 25 W Ref Triode/UL Monoblocks
2 way Floor Standing Test Speakers

Offline richidoo

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 11144
Re: Sparks
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2007, 08:35:18 AM »
I think you may be right. I'll get some NOS and see how that works. Just didn't want to replace with decent tube to find them having problems soon after. Thanks for helping.
Rich

Offline steve

  • Audiologist
  • *
  • Posts: 1241
Re: Sparks
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2007, 09:09:31 AM »
I think you may be right. I'll get some NOS and see how that works. Just didn't want to replace with decent tube to find them having problems soon after. Thanks for helping.
Rich

I don't see a 10uf cap, or even a couple of 10uf causing the rectifiers to arc. In capacitive input filter designs, the 5u4 can handle up to 40uf, more if inductor input type filter.
Steve Sammet (Owner, Electron Eng, SAS Audio Labs, Ret)
SAS "V" 39pf/m 6N copper ICs,
SAS Test Phono Stage
Acutex 320 STR Mov Iron Cart
SAS 11A Perfect Tube Preamp
SAS 25 W Ref Triode/UL Monoblocks
2 way Floor Standing Test Speakers

Offline richidoo

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 11144
Re: Sparks
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2007, 12:35:21 PM »
Great. Thanks for the diagnostic!
Rich

Offline steve

  • Audiologist
  • *
  • Posts: 1241
Re: Sparks
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2007, 04:08:33 PM »
Great. Thanks for the diagnostic!
Rich

Your welcome Rich. Have a great weekend.
Steve Sammet (Owner, Electron Eng, SAS Audio Labs, Ret)
SAS "V" 39pf/m 6N copper ICs,
SAS Test Phono Stage
Acutex 320 STR Mov Iron Cart
SAS 11A Perfect Tube Preamp
SAS 25 W Ref Triode/UL Monoblocks
2 way Floor Standing Test Speakers