Author Topic: Do Tube Buffers Really Improve Your Audio?  (Read 49401 times)

Headspace

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Do Tube Buffers Really Improve Your Audio?
« on: January 27, 2009, 12:32:29 PM »
Well I'm new here and just a Music & HT enthusiasist trying to upgrade my sound. Perhaps the question should be "how much do tube buffers improve your audio." Anyone out there ever wedge a tube buffer inbetween there CD player and solid state amp/receiver and receive a pleasing result? A warm fuzzy so to speak...

Do these things actually work as advertised (poor mans tube amp) or are they no replacement for just spending the money on a good tube amp to begin with? I would prefer not to if I can achieve the same results using a buffer or am I comparing apples and oranges here?
« Last Edit: January 27, 2009, 01:02:39 PM by Headspace »

mgalusha

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Re: Do Tube Buffers Really Improve Your Audio?
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2009, 04:45:54 PM »
They can improve things but not always. The problem is some (quite a few) cd players have less than optimal analog output stages. A tube buffer can add some warmth to what may be an overly dry presentation but unfortunately that doesn't really address the root problem, assuming the digital portion is well done that is.

A better way to go is to improve the analog section or use an external DAC that has both excellent digital and analog sections. There are modders who do replace the analog portions of CDP's with tube sections such as Dan Wright (ModWright) and John Tucker (Exemplar Audio) but this is usually an expensive proposition. It may be less expensive to get a new player or a new DAC assuming you like your existing player well enough as a transport.

Mike

Offline Carlman

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Re: Do Tube Buffers Really Improve Your Audio?
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2009, 05:31:16 PM »
I haven't had (enough of an) impedance mismatch for the buffer to make a difference.  I think the Squeezebox device has an unusual output and therefore benefits from a buffer in that way.  (I may be wrong but I remember something about the SB3 creating a 'need' for the buffers in the first place.)  Any time there is a mismatch, the buffer seems to help the sound.

I don't believe it is the intent of a buffer to act as a preamp.  I think it 'can' but the results will vary depending on the properties of the source and the amp.  Plus, you'd have a volume knob and that's it.  1 source, 1 output.  If that's enough of a pre for you, a tubed DAC and a nice alps pot (passive pre) might be another option... The premise of a buffer used as a pre vs. a passive pre seems similar to me, where you don't know what will be a synergistic match... I could be wrong, I'm not an EE.

If you can borrow one and see what it does, I'd encourage you to try. 

-C

I really enjoy listening to music.

Headspace

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Re: Do Tube Buffers Really Improve Your Audio?
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2009, 10:32:26 PM »
Now when you gentlemen are referring to an external DAC to improve sonics would this Pacific Valve qualify or not?
http://www.pacificvalve.us/LTDAC60M.html

I'm running a Pioneer Elite DV-47AI Universal Player as my main all around workhorse. Indeed it's more than a bit dry for music but regarding my budget I'm not Rockefeller. I have no pre/pro rig, just a Pioneer Elite VSX 56TXi Receiver.

Would it be reasonable to wedge something similar to this DAC inbetween my player and receiver to improve sonics?
« Last Edit: January 27, 2009, 10:48:54 PM by Headspace »

Offline Carlman

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Re: Do Tube Buffers Really Improve Your Audio?
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2009, 05:32:47 AM »
I personally do not know.  You have a DAC in your cd player and in your receiver.  You can try using either by: 1- Connecting the RCA jacks from the cd player to the receiver (uses cdp's dac) or,
2- Connect the digital out from the cdp to the receiver (uses the receiver's dac)

The source is a good place to start but also a good place to end when doing a system setup.  If your speakers are ideally located, using a good method for setup and you've got the best amplification you can get for them, then the source is a good place to look for changes.

That said, a receiver will sound dry sometimes.  What have you done to determine it's the cdp/source that's causing the unwanted sound qualities?

-C
PS, yes the link you referenced is an external DAC, and would be considered a fair-priced one also.. not cheap, not ridiculously expensive, gets the job done nicely.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 05:34:21 AM by Carlman »
I really enjoy listening to music.

Offline richidoo

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Re: Do Tube Buffers Really Improve Your Audio?
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2009, 08:17:01 AM »
According to reviews, the Elite series is among the best in consumer HT gear. But universal player / receiver is still limited by the swiss army knife role it plays. It is not a dedicated stereo system, and is built to compete in the HT marketplace, priced lower than perfectionist 2 channel gear.

Like all consumer disc players, your DVD player can be modified to improve its performance. There is a standard approach when modifying digital sources - upgrade the power supply, sample clock, and output stage. These are are all ripe for improvement. Example:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=585918
Reference Audio Mods does this kind of work, are reputable, and they currently list the big brother of your player in their repertoire. You might contact them to see if they would be willing to do same mods to your player. You might also find that buying a cheapo player like Oppo would give you more bang for the buck in mods without risking the value of your Pioneer Elite player. Oppo has been modded 1000's of times, it's a known commodity and holds its own value as modded. Your Pioneer would become almost worthless if it were modded, IMO, while the Oppo deserves to be modded. ;)

I don't know much about the receiver, but Elite series have recieved some decent reviews, so all I can say is run the best source you can into the receiver as analog, then set the receiver to the most innocuous settings possible. There may be a setting like Direct, or Pure Direct (Onkyo) which shuts off all digital processing and bass management which will harm the sound of a great source component. Even the Stereo setting on my Onkyo receiver includes bass management and digital crossover so I must choose Pure Direct to get "amps only."  These actually did sound pretty good on my big speakers. Read your manual to figure out what setting equals pure amp with no processing for your Pioneer receiver.

Carlman is right, there is a small chance that the receivers DAC is decent, but I wouldn't put money that it could come close to a modestly modified external player, or external DAC. Beware of the low priced DACs though, there are zillions of them now, and not all are really as good as the hype. Tubes don't always mean good sound. Do your research and ask for opinions and advice before you buy something - get it used if you can.

If you are using the wires that came with your Pioneer equipment, consider upgrading the connection wires. It makes a huge difference, proportional to the money you spend. I always recommend JPS brand wires, but there are many good aftermarket wire companies. AudioQuest, Shunyata, Kimber, all make quality wires in the lower price brackets. I'm not talking about Monster cable. Blue Jeans cable is another good custom wire maker, though not as focused on high end audio as the other brands. In stereophile there is an ad running for years from a mail order company selling audioquest speaker wire really cheap.

Lastly you haven't mentioned your speakers. Wires and source mods are important, but speakers are most important to the sound of your system. They have the hardest job and good speaker design is the blackest art in all of audio science. While many of us nutcase audiophiles migh scoff at paying $10,000 for a cd player (they do exist) that much for speakers is not uncommon because of the big effect the peakers have on the overal sound quality, they deserve more money than other components. Again, used market is the place to start. If you are using a brand of speakers specifically marketed for home theater then you will be missing out on some of the subtle pleasures of high end 2 channel audio. Using a receiver as an amplifier will limit what you can achieve also, but not as much as the speakers. What speakers do you have?

What is your budget for upgrading your system?

..... and, Welcome to AudioNervosa, Headspace!
Rich

Headspace

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Re: Do Tube Buffers Really Improve Your Audio?
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2009, 06:38:01 PM »
Ah the quandry of it all. Trying to achieve caviar taste on a beer budget. One thing I do enjoy on my Pioneer Receiver is listening in the 7 channel stereo mode and DVD-A & multichannel SACD. Now I don't know if I can reach the heights of the 2 channel purist but hey it's fun trying.

For speakers I'm running some Altec A-7's & Heathkit AS-101 (basically Altec Valancias) on the front end, a Nature N-6 center channel, Altec Model 14's on the surround channels & Altec Santana 2 on the surround back channels and an American Audio PXW-15P subwoofer. Big speakers that serve both HT & music listening. They also serve to infuriate my wife.

The modded Oppo may be an option as is perhaps a tubed CD player. A second player makes sense. I have a love/hate relationship with my DV-47Ai yet am not ready to part with it. Pioneers I Link is a fabulous thing and it's not bad with dvd playback and an alright multi channel player.

I know I need to upgrade to better speaker wire. I'm running fairly standard 14 guage wire as I have some fairly long runs and couldn't afford umpteen dollars per meter. Thanks for the speaker wire suggestions and the welcome. A lot of collective knowledge around this place.  Why does it take Roger Waters 16+ years to put out another rock record? I am not amused.     
 

Offline richidoo

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Re: Do Tube Buffers Really Improve Your Audio?
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2009, 09:22:24 PM »
Yeah, if you like to listen to surround music discs, you are already on the right track.

frankthetech

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Re: Do Tube Buffers Really Improve Your Audio?
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2015, 12:47:31 PM »
OK new here... But I want to chime in here.
I've been using tubes a long time now and
IMO a tube buffer/preamp in a cdplayer is a huge improvement over the op-amp type of preamp most are made with.
If you take the signal right from the DAC output of the cdplayer and use a simple gain stage tube preamp the sound is a lot better.
 Huge improvement over the crappy op-amps most manufactures use.
I believe its well worth it to convert a cdplayer  to tube output.


Offline tmazz

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Re: Do Tube Buffers Really Improve Your Audio?
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2015, 01:24:57 PM »
OK new here... But I want to chime in here.
I've been using tubes a long time now and
IMO a tube buffer/preamp in a cdplayer is a huge improvement over the op-amp type of preamp most are made with.
If you take the signal right from the DAC output of the cdplayer and use a simple gain stage tube preamp the sound is a lot better.
 Huge improvement over the crappy op-amps most manufactures use.
I believe its well worth it to convert a cdplayer  to tube output.



Welcome aboard!

While I agree that a tube output stage in a CD player will most likely be a huge improvement over a cheap op-amp based stage, I believe what they are talking about here is an outboard tube buffer device that would go between the analog output of the CD and the input of your preamp. As such it would not replace the crappy op-amp stage,but rather would be fed by it. Thus the improvement over the op amp stage is limited by the fact that the op amp stage is still in the circuit, thus leading to the comments that to buffer could make an improvement, but there is no guarantee (kind of under the garbage in, garbage out theory.)
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Offline StereoNut

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Re: Do Tube Buffers Really Improve Your Audio?
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2015, 05:03:44 PM »
Yo, Headspace and Frankthetech - welcome to AN. :thumb:

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Offline Werd

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Re: Do Tube Buffers Really Improve Your Audio?
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2015, 08:54:59 PM »
Don't put a tube buffer there. I had that universal player until i dropped it (by accident). It was a good transport also. I like the Pioneer house sound. Don't tamper with it. You can do other things like running it straight into the Elite receiver and using the Receiver's dac. already mentioned re cabling and stuff like that.

I just bought a Brand new Onkyo 737 Receiver for my upstairs. I am going to put a new fuse in it. Put a new power cable on it. I don't need any interconnects. I will see how it goes.
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Offline Werd

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Re: Do Tube Buffers Really Improve Your Audio?
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2015, 08:58:48 PM »
 :rofl:

Ok who necro'ed this thread? I replied to the OP and he may even be dead.  :rofl:
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Offline rollo

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Re: Do Tube Buffers Really Improve Your Audio?
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2015, 07:14:00 AM »
   Yes I have wedged a tubed buffer in between a CDP nd preamp. A Promithius buffer.
    An instant improvement but not all around. loved the top end and midrange however the bass suffered. Bass became a tad looser and boomy.
    So decided to try a tubed CDP a Lector 7T. No looking back. Gave me everything I desired with tube flavor and much better sonics all around. Lesson learned.
    The Elite series has a a character of slightly warm so it must be another culprit.
      Have you experimented with cables at all ? first try speaker cables then ICs. Biggest change will come from speaker cables.
      It could also be that the settings on the receiver are just not right.
      Response Audio for a buffer if you want to try one. TWL for cables as a starting point.
     BTW welcome Headspace and frankthetech


charles
« Last Edit: February 03, 2015, 07:15:40 AM by rollo »
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Offline richidoo

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Re: Do Tube Buffers Really Improve Your Audio?
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2015, 09:26:43 AM »
I'm very happy with the SS equipment I've been using the last couple years. I think they give me everything I love about tubes without the drama and frustration. I do enjoy tube amps but have no desire to jump into that psychological quagmire again any time soon.

I have never heard a stand alone tube buffer that did not damage the signal more than it helped. But I have heard some great tube preamps and amps, so I know it's not the tubes' fault.