AudioNervosa
Specialists => Audiologists => Topic started by: jessearias on July 21, 2017, 04:18:17 PM
-
I usually try to burn in new stereo equipment at least 100 hours strait before I put it into service. Is that enough? I have no problem burning it in more, but trying to get an opinion on what is enough initial burn in to get good performance. :?
-
I find that 200 hrs for most gear works, but I recently had some op amp that took 400 hs before they sounded their best.
-
It really depends on what you are trying to burn in and what is inside of it. 100-200 hours is OK for lots of things, but certain caps and dielectric materials (like teflon) can take much longer sometimes even 400-500 hours. You can certainly listen during this time, but will often hear differences in sound quality as things burn and/or break in.
-
There was an old thread a couple of years ago about my Antelope Gold dac. Sounded horrible out
of the box. The consistent advice I got was put lots of hours on it, up to 500. The more hours, the better it sounded. I took notes along the way. Back then, I was using old speaker cables and ic's.
With ganders aka Gary's cables that I use now, the differences would've been even more pronounced. I'm certainly a believer in the break in phenomenon. Maybe a couple of the manufacturers here can chime in
Nick
-
And don't forget turn-on time. We all know tubed equipment takes 20-30 minutes from turn on to sound good, but even SS electronics take time. Some say SS amps should be left on all the time because they sound better a day later. I've heard a DAC sound like crap 10 minutes after turn on only to shine 45 minutes later.
-
I agree that some equipment may take longer to burn in do to the nature of the parts inside it. As the hours pile on, I can here the sound smooth out even more. But what about cables? I give them the same treatment, 100 hrs. and then into the frying pan. Maybe a different strategy for cables? And then there are speakers. :shock: Different strategies? :?
-
I agree that some equipment may take longer to burn in do to the nature of the parts inside it. As the hours pile on, I can here the sound smooth out even more. But what about cables? I give them the same treatment, 100 hrs. and then into the frying pan. Maybe a different strategy for cables? And then there are speakers. :shock: Different strategies? :?
Cables ?? IMO, if you have the right equipment, you can hear the difference.
-
Break-in varies with component type. Over the years as a Beta tester and break-in guy for the shows digital was the worst culprit requiring a minimum of 500 hours.
I have listened to numerous components actually break-in. The most effective method is six hours on 6 hours off. Why is that ? The dielectric require settling time that is why. The conductor of a cable for example burns a path of least resistance after 40 hours. Then the dielectric needs to FORM around that conductor . That is tough to do unless your anal and do not work. Now I use 18 hours on six hours off and I mean unplugged from power source. Makes a difference.
So in general 500 hours for most. Capacitors such as Duelund and V-cap can take 1000hours [ v-cap] . If you use them be patient.
For us we use a cheap CDP passive preamp and T-amp to burn in the stuff. We do not use our reference system and waste the NOS tubaroonies.
My "Golden Rule" is 500 hours for all except caps mentioned previously. It pays off as you can truly evaluate the new whatever. Again patience is a virtue with this rushing only fools your decision.
charles
-
Break in time is so misunderstood. The naysayers tend to look at anything that they have as a finished product. This is especially true in any mechanical system, like a loudspeaker. There are so many interactive mechanical systems at play that go unconsidered.
Remember this is all IME, IMO.
A couple few of these are:
Suspension surround
Suspension spider
The cone itself
Each of these things has to reach equilibrium and this can take many hours to get happy
The voice coil is another thing. It has to establish its' mechanical position on the former under heat to be where it will be the most efficient.
I have seen T/S parameters change more than 30% from out of the box to broken in. Case in point is the Dayton PS220 speaker. It sucks out of the box, being hard, harsh and with no low end. I broke them in with about 200 hours on a Variac (60Hz) at 10 - 12V and it is an entirely different animal. The only problem after break in was the cone/surround resonance at 3.6KHz. That was easy to deal with in the digital domain with a VST EQ plugin through my Mac.
Wire needs to bias the dielectric. Same with capacitors. Electrolytics break in in about 10 hours. Teflon can take 500 hours or more and go through many changes during that time. PP is around 100 hours-ish. I'm not convinced that the conductor is subject to break-in as much as everything else, but that flies in the face of my next observation, so here I go.
Base metals are one thing. Platings are another. Here is what I have found:
Pure copper for AC is THE BEST conductor.
Common brass is merely OK.
Mill finish copper is a tad on the murky sounding end of the equation. Polishing copper to eliminate micro-arcing under power is EXTREMELY beneficial. Everything is just better... everything. There is more there, there. Again, this is a noise issue.
Gold plate is warm-ish depending upon the base metal. Gold over brass is no better than unoxidized brass, but considerably better than oxidized brass. Keep your brass connectors clean. Read this as common residential receptacles. My favorite treatment was suggested, and given to me by Triode Pete. Jena Labs Contact enhancer. Way better than DeOxit that tends to get gummy and attract lint and other contaminants. That being said, DeOxit is better than nothing. Just don't use too much.
Beryllium copper. Not as conductive as common brass or copper, typically. This is not necessarily a bad thing. Conduction thresholds for some very low level noise just dies at the interface. (see Rhodium)
Rhodium. Not a good conductor. What a pisser. For years, I hated that plating. ALWAYS was harsh and grainy sounding. Mea culpa: I never let it break in long enough to get past the harshness. Add to that the fact that it is schizophrenic bipolar. It will sound good and then just suck and back and forth until it comes in. After that it can be the most revealing (in a good way) low noise base metal plating available. Take the Furutech GTX NCF receptacle. Sounds like $280.00 down the drain until about 200-300 hours. Then you (we) wonder where it has been all of our lives. I got in an online argument with Ben from Mojo Audio over rhodium, because I was ignorant and stubborn. I apologized and now know that he is absolutely correct concerning rhodium. Properly broken in it is the most revealing and neutral plating available. Stupid expensive, but for the finest systems where only the best will do... IF you (we) are searching for neutrality.
All too often neutral is not what our systems need. Materials are the spices that finish our systems, just like for food.
Now, a different animal. Cladding is always better than plating for conductors. Plating is normally measured in microns whereas cladding is measured in thousandths of a millimeter or inch. Thicker is always better. Since skin effect is at play ( yeah... I know: blah, blah, blah....../.. ) in audio is an important issue. Unfortunately, this is normally not an option and we get what we get. Silver CLADDED 99.999 copper is awesome. Unfortunately the only reliable supplier that I know of this wire is out of business. Damned shame, but there are still a lot of good options available. The Permalloy plating on NOS WE wire is extremely good and it is repeatable and reliable. Too bad they are gone. Too much of the WE wire available on eBay, etc is NOT the real thing, so beware.
Break in is a weird, but essential issue. Do it right and it is a good thing. Think about break in recommendations for new cars. They NEVER say: Give it HELL! Valve guides and main bearings don't like that very meuch. I know from many years of experience with IC motors.
What say you?
-
Dave nice write up. Conductivity does not seem to be the governing factor in sonic results. The Furutech you mentioned is Rhodium over Phospher bronze ? Not the best conductivity but the best sound.
Recently we noticed that the all copper receptacles are just bright in character. that surprised us very much. Where as the gold over copper was not bright. We still have allot to learn about the sonic results of the different conductor types.
charles
-
Dave nice write up. Conductivity does not seem to be the governing factor in sonic results. The Furutech you mentioned is Rhodium over Phospher bronze ? Not the best conductivity but the best sound.
Recently we noticed that the all copper receptacles are just bright in character. that surprised us very much. Where as the gold over copper was not bright. We still have allot to learn about the sonic results of the different conductor types.
charles
Thanks, Charles.
The GTX NCF is rhodium over alpha copper. Not beryllium copper. The Furutech FPX(Cu) is beryllium copper and I find it forward in the upper midrange. There is where objectionable brightness. There and the lower HF. It is interesting just how much better the FPX(Cu) sounds when the connectors are polished to a good shine. That is micro arcing. If we look at the contacts made from BC we can see the porosity of the surface. Simply polishing the blades on the P&S5362A results in a lower noise, smoother presentation.
My opinion and experience...
-
In junior high I built (rough) RC powerboat models with beryllium copper propellors and the castings needed to be sharpened and polished to enhance their performance. Now when I hear Dave talking about "polishing beryllium copper blades" it's a deja vu!
(http://www.boatracingfacts.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=17474&stc=1&d=1186374405)
-
Dave nice write up. Conductivity does not seem to be the governing factor in sonic results. The Furutech you mentioned is Rhodium over Phospher bronze ? Not the best conductivity but the best sound.
Recently we noticed that the all copper receptacles are just bright in character. that surprised us very much. Where as the gold over copper was not bright. We still have allot to learn about the sonic results of the different conductor types.
charles
Thanks, Charles.
The GTX NCF is rhodium over alpha copper. Not beryllium copper. The Furutech FPX(Cu) is beryllium copper and I find it forward in the upper midrange. There is where objectionable brightness. There and the lower HF. It is interesting just how much better the FPX(Cu) sounds when the connectors are polished to a good shine. That is micro arcing. If we look at the contacts made from BC we can see the porosity of the surface. Simply polishing the blades on the P&S5362A results in a lower noise, smoother presentation.
My opinion and experience...
This whole area is fascinating for me. How can an outlet affect the sound? Could it be that these different characteristics affect the caps, tubes etc and can it in any way be measured? As to polishing the surfaces, I'm assuming that the improvement is permanent or does it ever so slightly over time regress a bit?
Another thing, I'm assuming the Furutechs, Oyaides have surfaces that aren't at all porous
Nick
-
In junior high I built (rough) RC powerboat models with beryllium copper propellors and the castings needed to be sharpened and polished to enhance their performance. Now when I hear Dave talking about "polishing beryllium copper blades" it's a deja vu!
(http://www.boatracingfacts.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=17474&stc=1&d=1186374405)
That is awesome! I still have some Octura propellers for my OPS 29 Speed B outrigger. Damn, that was almost 40 years ago. I've still got the motor and pipe, but it needs a con rod. You just can't compress water! 🤓 Too much fun back in the model years. I flew control line speed and FAI team race, too. I still have Henry Nelson 2.5 cc diesels that would turn a 6.25 X 7.25 at 24,000 rpm in the air. I really do is the old model years. As an AMA member and IMPBA member I'm still in touch with the geezers in both. Beat the hell out of video games.
-
Yes, it was a fun hobby. Later years just prior to audio I got into sailplanes. Modeling is a great way for kids to learn engineering skills. I kept my SIG KT40 around hoping my kids would show interest but nay.
-
There was an old thread a couple of years ago about my Antelope Gold dac. Sounded horrible out
of the box. The consistent advice I got was put lots of hours on it, up to 500. The more hours, the better it sounded. I took notes along the way. Back then, I was using old speaker cables and ic's.
With ganders aka Gary's cables that I use now, the differences would've been even more pronounced. I'm certainly a believer in the break in phenomenon. Maybe a couple of the manufacturers here can chime in
Nick
Through experiences & repeated testing / evaluation, I found that "burn-in" & "settling" are very important and are interrelated.
A continuous "burn-in" does not always optimize the sound. There always should be some "rest time" (ie- "settling") in between "burn-in" periods to let the dielectric "settle & form" (think of capacitor "burn-in"). On all the cables I preliminary "burn-in" prior to shipping, my High Power audiodharma Cable Cooker is on an industrial timer to allow "settling" time during the process...
Also, once "burned-in", try not to disturb the cables since that may "mess-up" the sound quality by disturbing the dielectric and/or conductive materials.
My $0.02,
Pete
-
Pete could not agree more. Once those cables are settled in "LEAVE THEM ALONE" It will take a day or two to resettle. It is good to see some Manufacturers break in their product. My pet peeve.
charles
-
Based on some of these responses, I've been using the "on-off" break in methodology nowadays. The process can sometimes be a pita. When a manufacturer offers to do even a partial break in, I'm all for it. Now if someone offered a full break in, or close to it, I'd be one to depart with my $$ to have that done.
Nick
-
We break in every component for our customers if desired. Especially Digital which takes serious time to stop changing. Have yet to meet a digital component that took less than 500 hours. Some more.
Capacitors like V-Cap or Duelund take over 750 to 1000 hours to sound their best and stop changing. For power conditioners I use our refrig. or air conditioner.
charles
-
Guys, I am in total agreement about the need for settling time between duty cycles to get the wire/dielectric broken in. That is why a darned 'fridge is a great burn in tool. I use a 1/2HP motor with a timer circuit to break-in power cables. The starting spike is beneficial to the process - 12A on start: 5A at run... repeat as necessary.
Power cables will be best served by getting them off of carpet with an insulating riser and then leave 'em alone! Pete is the MAN when it comes to power cables and power transmission. That is his day job and he knows more about AC power than many self proclaimed expurtz. His cables are all DO and no hype. Like them all.
Wire is weird. Rather the dielectrics are weird. PVC, teflon, polyethelene, polypropylene, cloth, all are different in DA and this is a big deal. I think that is one of the reasons fabric or other organic coverings sound the best - very little dielectric memory.
One observation about digital. It is my experience that digital be left on all of the time to get happy. I'm not sure why, I just know it to be true at least for me and my friends. I think that part of the equation is constant energization of the output cable to its destination device. I do know that my DAC needs to stabilize the heat of the DAC chip to sound the best.
-
Well after 600 hours no more changes in sound. The new panel [Square "D"], lines [ 8ga cryo Romex] and outlets [ Voodoo graphine] are DONE. Ready to rumble.
charles
-
Well after 600 hours no more changes in sound. The new panel [Square "D"], lines [ 8ga cryo Romex] and outlets [ Voodoo graphine] are DONE. Ready to rumble.
charles
Ok, Charles!! Just a sound bite for inspiration :thumb:
https://youtu.be/PtMFdEPc64I
-
Nobody said it better. We will have some severe break-in for the new Rethm Saadhanas coming to my home soon. Minimum 500 hours.
Have the little SS system ready to break them in.
charles
-
Break in really does depend on what type of component it is and whats used inside. For all our tube preamps, we always recommend cycling on and off. Few hours on, few hours off. This will break in the component much quicker than just leaving it on 24/7. There are also some good burn in tracks available to use when your not listening to music. Tbey use the full frequency spectrum and really help in the process.
I now leave my integrated hybrid's tube preamp stage powered up at all times. Of course it is several years old now and has thousands of hours of play time on it.