AudioNervosa
Systemic Development => Bipolar System Disorders => Topic started by: rollo on June 09, 2021, 12:24:55 PM
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I see so many systems consisting of VG expensive gear improperly set up. Drives me NUTS. Speakers with ports against the wall, speakers too large, distance from walls not equal. Fireplaces, couches, furniture in the way. Glass furniture and other harmful reflective surfaces.
I say examine room for weakness and strengths. Then purchase the right speaker for that set up. If you have to put a speaker against or close to a wall forget the ported one.
Once a speaker is chosen then select an amp to match it. Then put the rest of your money on the best source you can afford. Fine tune it with cabling. :duh
charles
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I see so many systems consisting of VG expensive gear improperly set up. Drives me NUTS. Speakers with ports against the wall, speakers too large, distance from walls not equal. Fireplaces, couches, furniture in the way. Glass furniture and other harmful reflective surfaces.
I say examine room for weakness and strengths. Then purchase the right speaker for that set up. If you have to put a speaker against or close to a wall forget the ported one.
Once a speaker is chosen then select an amp to match it. Then put the rest of your money on the best source you can afford. Fine tune it with cabling. :duh
charles
What you said. The room is an interconnect
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I too cringe when I see a system set up in such a fashion that it cannot put it's best foot forward. but unfortunately there are a lot of people who do not have the luxury of a dedicated audio space that they can do with what they please. When you are forced to put your system in a shared space that usually involves compromises in the way that the room is set up because of the other people involved and the other ways that the space is used. No self respecting audiophile would choose to put a couch or a glass table in a spot that would be detrimental to the sound. But if you are in a shared space you often have no choice. Even when you are moving into a new house it is rare that you will be decorating the space from scratch , so you will also have the additional obstacle of setting up the system around furniture that you already own.
And I do know this from first hand experience. After having a dedicate audio room in the basement for 30 years where I put what I wanted where I wanted it and had free reign to place any kind of acoustic treatment where ever I wanted, I moved into a house where the only plausible place to put my system was in the Living Room, the first place people see when they walk into the house. This lead to a number of changes to my system that I never would have made had I still had my own space. For example there was not a single place in the room where Ii could have put my big ARC VT-200 tube amp without tripping over it and yes, the speakers are located closer to the wall than I would have placed them if the room was bigger. But sometime you just have to do what you have to do.
I could have thrown caution to the wind and just set things up they way I felt was best for audio, but then it would have been hard to say that the system sounded better for it when I couldn't listen to it at all after being thrown out of the house. :rofl:
So when you see a system that is set up "poorly" is is often not that the owner improperly set up the gear, but rather he did the best he could given the situation he had to deal with.
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The good 'ol WAF strikes again! :duh
SN
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(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/11/1e/23/111e23cdec239dd3dfd04d082eaf76d4.jpg)
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The good 'ol WAF strikes again! :duh
SN
Yep…. :lol: :thumb:
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Until he got to the glass furniture part, I thought Charles was writing about my room! Mine is as well set up as can be while still taking aesthetics into account. I am the neatnik in the house, and as much as I know/believe that 23 foot speaker wire is compromising the sound, so be it.
Having said that, I have spent many years and dollars fighting a very unbalanced room. Small speakers were no match for bass leakage into other rooms, and large speakers overloaded the closed corner side of the room. Using open baffle speakers and a sealed sub has been a good compromise.
A dedicated room is of course ideal, but I do thoroughly enjoy being able to cook, putter around the house, and read the paper while cranking the stereo out from the living room.
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Until he got to the glass furniture part, I thought Charles was writing about my room! Mine is as well set up as can be while still taking aesthetics into account. I am the neatnik in the house, and as much as I know/believe that 23 foot speaker wire is compromising the sound, so be it.
Having said that, I have spent many years and dollars fighting a very unbalanced room. Small speakers were no match for bass leakage into other rooms, and large speakers overloaded the closed corner side of the room. Using open baffle speakers and a sealed sub has been a good compromise.
A dedicated room is of course ideal, but I do thoroughly enjoy being able to cook, putter around the house, and read the paper while cranking the stereo out from the living room.
Well, you could be describing my living room. Glass coffee table in front of my listening chair, couch on that side close to the left speaker, four 2’ x 6’ glass panels on the left side of the living room wall allowing a view of the back yard. Not really able or even wanting to fix anything. I enjoy the aesthetics and am not going to put up a draw curtain on the living room glass wall or create fitted, removable panels to put into place and then remove each listening session. I live alone and have the ability to do anything acoustically that I want. But there is a convenience factor, too. This won’t be the last place I live in and one of these days I’ll be able to have a dedicated listening room 🎶 :thumb:
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Yes we all know there are trade offs for room, life style and other factors. What I am saying is the choices made need more scrutiny. One does not put a ported speaker against a wall as an example. Buy a speaker designed to go against the wall.
Match the amp to speaker, obtain best source you can. Keep it simple.
charles
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Yes we all know there are trade offs for room, life style and other factors. What I am saying is the choices made need more scrutiny. One does not put a ported speaker against a wall as an example. Buy a speaker designed to go against the wall.
Match the amp to speaker, obtain best source you can. Keep it simple.
charles
I understand your point, Charles. I’m close to trying some acoustic treatments behind the speakers, just wondering if it’s worth the effort due to the exposed glass that I don’t want to treat,
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Yes we all know there are trade offs for room, life style and other factors. What I am saying is the choices made need more scrutiny. One does not put a ported speaker against a wall as an example. Buy a speaker designed to go against the wall.
Match the amp to speaker, obtain best source you can. Keep it simple.
charles
I understand your point, Charles. I’m close to trying some acoustic treatments behind the speakers, just wondering if it’s worth the effort due to the exposed glass that I don’t want to treat,
Thanks appreciate that Was not trying to put down anyone as there are reasons. I like blinds for glass Can open , close partially open. Many options to improve sonic behavior.
charles
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You mean like this? A $40k speaker jammed up against a wall of windows. See it all the time. Soooo ridiculous! :roll:
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You mean like this? A $40k speaker jammed up against a wall of windows. See it all the time. Soooo ridiculous! :roll:
It’s a beautiful view, though :lol:
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You mean like this? A $40k speaker jammed up against a wall of windows. See it all the time. Soooo ridiculous! :roll:
It’s a beautiful view, though :lol:
:rofl:
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You mean like this? A $40k speaker jammed up against a wall of windows. See it all the time. Soooo ridiculous! :roll:
YES and on top of Subs besides.
charles
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You mean like this? A $40k speaker jammed up against a wall of windows. See it all the time. Soooo ridiculous! :roll:
YES and on top of Subs besides.
charles
It's not subs. It's a large tower with a 2-part cabinet. Described here:
https://www.daedalusaudio.com/zeus-speaker
The fans of this mfr seem to love the look, I don't. While the solid wood materials and craftmanship are obviously exquisite, I could never warm up to the overall look. To my eye it presents as unbalanced and awkward and not continuous. Just my opinion.
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You mean like this? A $40k speaker jammed up against a wall of windows. See it all the time. Soooo ridiculous! :roll:
YES and on top of Subs besides.
charles
It's not subs. It's a large tower with a 2-part cabinet. Described here:
https://www.daedalusaudio.com/zeus-speaker
The fans of this mfr seem to love the look, I don't. While the solid wood materials and craftmanship are obviously exquisite, I could never warm up to the overall look. To my eye it presents as unbalanced and awkward and not continuous. Just my opinion.
Sure looked like a sub at first glance. Can’t say I like the look either…
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if you want to put a round peg into a square hole, just make sure its diameter is a couple thousandths smaller than the side of the square... 8)
doug s.
Doug,
Good to have you…. and your words of wisdom and humor…. back :thumb:
Nick
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if you want to put a round peg into a square hole, just make sure its diameter is a couple thousandths smaller than the side of the square... 8)
doug s.
Or just use a bigger hammer.
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I'm one of those guys with a pretty decent system and a problem room. It's big enough for big line source speakers, but it has an open end, a split alcove, tile floors, 14' glass window on half a wall, and the list goes on...
First thing in my favor, BY FAR, is a very tolerant wife ( the most important component in my system). So large bass traps are in place, huge absorption panels are behind the GR LS9 speakers and on the alcove. Pi Audio diffusers are in place between the speakers, in front of the bass traps and to the side and slightly in front of the speakers. Much of the placements were on the advice of the very knowledgeable D. Elledge. Most of the diffusers can be put up quickly, or taken down to watch a movie with the tolerant wife.
Is it now a great room? No, but now it approaches the sound that Danny Richie heard when he designed them (the LS9 line sources). I'll never spend the bucks to have a "dedicated" listening room. But with a little help from my friends (or a lot of help), I've been lucky enough to put together something good.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/thumbnails/user/40290/3276/29368_thumbnail.jpeg)
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Another look.
Grrrr. Some guy at another site has found a way to keep me from linking a photo--- J.R.???
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;image=57075
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Nah, Doug. You’re good on both in my book. Now…. on to the 2 box pre. I don’t want to jinx anything by saying the name, but does it begin with an “M” and end in “elos”?? If so, that would be amazing news!
I took a chance recently on a used 2 box Suptratek Chardonnay and it’s a terrific preamp. Very quiet, detailed, gorgeous sounding and my first time with 6NS7 tubes. Pls post or send me a PM about that Melos when you get it.
thanks, nick. altho some might dispute either. or both.
here's something o.t., but interesting - there's two heavy boxes heading my way from ontario, ca. supposedly a preamp and its power supply are in 'em. i'll believe it when i see them. and then we'll see if they actually work! ;) they were shipped out there a bit more than 2 years ago. if they do work, then i'll have two world class preamps - maybe even rivaling what sas used to manufacture! :D
doug s.
ps - charlie - the single most important piece of equipment in any audio system is the room. since i was a kid, the very first thing i ever looked at, regarding any living space - from my bedroom on up - was: how can i set up an audio system? 8)
if you want to put a round peg into a square hole, just make sure its diameter is a couple thousandths smaller than the side of the square... 8)
doug s.
Doug,
Good to have you…. and your words of wisdom and humor…. back :thumb:
Nick
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I'm one of those guys with a pretty decent system and a problem room. It's big enough for big line source speakers, but it has an open end, a split alcove, tile floors, 14' glass window on half a wall, and the list goes on...
First thing in my favor, BY FAR, is a very tolerant wife ( the most important component in my system). So large bass traps are in place, huge absorption panels are behind the GR LS9 speakers and on the alcove. Pi Audio diffusers are in place between the speakers, in front of the bass traps and to the side and slightly in front of the speakers. Much of the placements were on the advice of the very knowledgeable D. Elledge. Most of the diffusers can be put up quickly, or taken down to watch a movie with the tolerant wife.
Is it now a great room? No, but now it approaches the sound that Danny Richie heard when he designed them. I'll never spend the bucks to have a "dedicated" listening room. But with a little help from my friends (or a lot of help), I've been lucky enough to put together something good.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/thumbnails/user/40290/3276/29368_thumbnail.jpeg)
Hmmm, maybe we could have a contest on who has the crummier room…. :duh
I’d love to post some pics of it here, but….. I spent two hours on the phone with a couple of Apple support techs about changing from their efficient, but not so common HEIC format to JPEG, but that’s not an acceptable format on this forum either. So, I’m looking for simple software (for Mac and iOS only) to do JPEG to JPG so that I can (finally) post pics that I have taken on this site 😳
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Doug,
Well, in my system right now, I can’t accuse the Supratek of being bloomy. But detailed, engaging, rich in tone… oh yes :thumb: I have 2 sets of 6NS7s that were kindly sent my way and I’ll get to that soon. I need to tackle room acoustics one of these days too. Any of us who buy gear from aging, brilliant designers is always taking a chance…
I’m keeping my fingers crossed 🤞
no worries about jinxing anything. as i said, nick, i won't believe it until it's in my system and running. afaik, i will be getting bricks in these two boxes...
i've heard great things about supratek pre's; i actually checked them out, but i need a full function preamp - 4 sources min, plus at least 1 tape loop. and while not mandatory, i prefer a balance control. regarding the 6sn7, i had two preamps w/that tube - the rogue magnum 99, which i found WAY too bloomy, it was extremely microphonic, i had to turn off every fluorescent light when using it, and its output impedance, at ~2500 ohms, was a mismatch for my system. (maybe they've changed the specs since, but they lied about it when i had mine.) the second was a cary slp98, which i actually found quite nice, but it couldn't hold a candle to "the preamp that shall remain nameless", but begins with 'm" and ends with "elos". and i was hoping it wasn't the case, because i really loved the looks of the cary.
doug s.
Nah, Doug. You’re good on both in my book. Now…. on to the 2 box pre. I don’t want to jinx anything by saying the name, but does it begin with an “M” and end in “elos”?? If so, that would be amazing news!
I took a chance recently on a used 2 box Suptratek Chardonnay and it’s a terrific preamp. Very quiet, detailed, gorgeous sounding and my first time with 6NS7 tubes. Pls post or send me a PM about that Melos when you get it.
thanks, nick. altho some might dispute either. or both.
here's something o.t., but interesting - there's two heavy boxes heading my way from ontario, ca. supposedly a preamp and its power supply are in 'em. i'll believe it when i see them. and then we'll see if they actually work! ;) they were shipped out there a bit more than 2 years ago. if they do work, then i'll have two world class preamps - maybe even rivaling what sas used to manufacture! :D
doug s.
ps - charlie - the single most important piece of equipment in any audio system is the room. since i was a kid, the very first thing i ever looked at, regarding any living space - from my bedroom on up - was: how can i set up an audio system? 8)
if you want to put a round peg into a square hole, just make sure its diameter is a couple thousandths smaller than the side of the square... 8)
doug s.
Doug,
Good to have you…. and your words of wisdom and humor…. back :thumb:
Nick
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Many moons ago Danny Richie and Gary Dodd were sitting in my room. Gary had just designed his battery pre and had brought the prototype out for my physics class speaker competition. In the conversation the Supratek Chardonnay came up as model that Gary felt he had to surpass... it was the unit in the niche he aspired to best. Even though I'd never heard one, I thought that spoke well of the unit. I placed an order for a Dodd that evening, spending more money on stereo than I ever thought was sane. My how times change :oops:
One of these days I'd like to hear a Supratek
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Many moons ago Danny Richie and Gary Dodd were sitting in my room. Gary had just designed his battery pre and had brought the prototype out for my physics class speaker competition. In the conversation the Supratek Chardonnay came up as model that Gary felt he had to surpass... it was the unit in the niche he aspired to best. Even though I'd never heard one, I thought that spoke well of the unit. I placed an order for a Dodd that evening, spending more money on stereo than I ever thought was sane. My how times change :oops:
One of these days I'd like to hear a Supratek
I’ve heard so much about Gary and his products over the years. It was difficult to read how he was struggling with his health. I’m not sure how I first heard about the Supratek, but over time, there was a growing, positive consensus of opinions that I kept reading about. Because our member here Jack has one, I decided to take a chance and thrilled that I did.
I wish I lived closer to audio civilization and sadly, the old Las Vegas club has long since disbanded. I would sure like to listen to other gear once in a while without having to buy it.
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Interesting about the Audio Mirror monos. I’ve read lots about the Tubadour, but not much on the monos. Was just on the website and read he’s working on a preamp and phono. It’s amazing what some of these tubes were designed to do and how we use them now
like i told sam laufer, mark's biz partner, who's been nudging mark to make it right: "all my appendages are crossed."
re: 6sn7's i have a stash of nos rca 5692's, which my audio mirror 6c33c mono blocks use; along w/some 5691's. maybe some day i'll break out the amps again. :shock:
doug s.
Doug,
Well, in my system right now, I can’t accuse the Supratek of being bloomy. But detailed, engaging, rich in tone… oh yes :thumb: I have 2 sets of 6NS7s that were kindly sent my way and I’ll get to that soon. I need to tackle room acoustics one of these days too. Any of us who buy gear from aging, brilliant designers is always taking a chance…
I’m keeping my fingers crossed 🤞
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Doug,
Are you using a Windows computer or a Mac or iPad?
Nick
re: posting pics here, i've found the only way i can do it is to post my pics to my google photos page; then when i open the pic i want, i have to right-click on it, open it in a new window, and then copy that url into this forum; if i just try to copy the original google photo url, it won't post.
ideally, it would be nice to be able to post pics directly from my computer.
doug s.
I'm one of those guys with a pretty decent system and a problem room. It's big enough for big line source speakers, but it has an open end, a split alcove, tile floors, 14' glass window on half a wall, and the list goes on...
First thing in my favor, BY FAR, is a very tolerant wife ( the most important component in my system). So large bass traps are in place, huge absorption panels are behind the GR LS9 speakers and on the alcove. Pi Audio diffusers are in place between the speakers, in front of the bass traps and to the side and slightly in front of the speakers. Much of the placements were on the advice of the very knowledgeable D. Elledge. Most of the diffusers can be put up quickly, or taken down to watch a movie with the tolerant wife.
Is it now a great room? No, but now it approaches the sound that Danny Richie heard when he designed them. I'll never spend the bucks to have a "dedicated" listening room. But with a little help from my friends (or a lot of help), I've been lucky enough to put together something good.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/thumbnails/user/40290/3276/29368_thumbnail.jpeg)
Hmmm, maybe we could have a contest on who has the crummier room…. :duh
I’d love to post some pics of it here, but….. I spent two hours on the phone with a couple of Apple support techs about changing from their efficient, but not so common HEIC format to JPEG, but that’s not an acceptable format on this forum either. So, I’m looking for simple software (for Mac and iOS only) to do JPEG to JPG so that I can (finally) post pics that I have taken on this site 😳
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Ok, well, that’s clear :roll: :lol: Google photos can store different file formats. It probably then converts them to a jpg format when you rt click and go thru your routine. I wish there were an easier way and it’s something I’m still researching .
if there was a vaccine i could take that would protect me from apple products, i'd get it! 8)
doug s.
Doug,
Are you using a Windows computer or a Mac or iPad?
Nick
re: posting pics here, i've found the only way i can do it is to post my pics to my google photos page; then when i open the pic i want, i have to right-click on it, open it in a new window, and then copy that url into this forum; if i just try to copy the original google photo url, it won't post.
ideally, it would be nice to be able to post pics directly from my computer.
doug s.
I'm one of those guys with a pretty decent system and a problem room. It's big enough for big line source speakers, but it has an open end, a split alcove, tile floors, 14' glass window on half a wall, and the list goes on...
First thing in my favor, BY FAR, is a very tolerant wife ( the most important component in my system). So large bass traps are in place, huge absorption panels are behind the GR LS9 speakers and on the alcove. Pi Audio diffusers are in place between the speakers, in front of the bass traps and to the side and slightly in front of the speakers. Much of the placements were on the advice of the very knowledgeable D. Elledge. Most of the diffusers can be put up quickly, or taken down to watch a movie with the tolerant wife.
Is it now a great room? No, but now it approaches the sound that Danny Richie heard when he designed them. I'll never spend the bucks to have a "dedicated" listening room. But with a little help from my friends (or a lot of help), I've been lucky enough to put together something good.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/thumbnails/user/40290/3276/29368_thumbnail.jpeg)
Hmmm, maybe we could have a contest on who has the crummier room…. :duh
I’d love to post some pics of it here, but….. I spent two hours on the phone with a couple of Apple support techs about changing from their efficient, but not so common HEIC format to JPEG, but that’s not an acceptable format on this forum either. So, I’m looking for simple software (for Mac and iOS only) to do JPEG to JPG so that I can (finally) post pics that I have taken on this site 😳
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if there was a vaccine i could take that would protect me from apple products, i'd get it! 8)
doug s.
:rofl: :thumb:
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Doug,
It’s become a bit of a challenge and I’m learning a lot of interesting info. I know a couple of guys here have trouble and one member has given up on posting pics. I never have trouble posting pics on US Audiomart and Agon. Don’t recall if I ever tried posting pics over at AC.
don't knock yourself out, nick. it's having to go to the web at all that's a pain, not the one extra step to open the pic on the web. if you can't get pics to load from our computers, don't bother worrying about it.
doug s.
Ok, well, that’s clear :roll: :lol: Google photos can store different file formats. It probably then converts them to a jpg format when you rt click and go thru your routine. I wish there were an easier way and it’s something I’m still researching .
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I know it has been a "standard assumption" on the internet to choose a speaker first, been mulling it over, how would one know how the speaker actually sounds without the electronic components? May I suggest testing all the components together if in store but preferably in a home test. Usually there is a return time policy for either an online purchase or from a store.
That would allow one to spend some time with speaker placement for maximum fidelity and/or looking for flaws in either speaker or component(s).
There is a very general pattern of sonic issues with each.
The speaker tends to be specific, such as a bright, harsh, or lack of highs tweeter, flabby bass, thin bass. The room also tends to be in the same category, being specific. Most times the resonances are less than 1/3 octave width.
On the other hand, electronic component FR deviation, though small, is over many many octaves and influencing many harmonics, causing perceptioin issues such as lean throughout the entire frequency range, highs, mids, and lows, or the opposite, too full bass, the mids, the highs, etc. Of course there are deviant issues such as harshness, smearing etc as well from a component.
I think one would be surprised if one knew just how far off the electronic components are from accuracy/naturalness, how much the output sounds different from the input of a component.
I find it difficult to accept one purchases the speaker first without auditioning with the electronics one might be interested in. To me it is a package.
My .02.
steve
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The amp needs to match the speaker. That's an absolute. You wouldn't match a 500W SS amp with horns or a single cone speaker. Same for a 2 watt SET amp with panels. But other than that almost anything goes, especially with source components. Of course your room will almost always need treatments to sound its best.