AudioNervosa
Systemic Development => Amplification and Preamplification => Tubes => Topic started by: JakeJ on September 08, 2009, 07:16:55 AM
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...in your amp.
Hello fellow Tubeheads,
I am in the market for new output tubes for my VAC PA-160 amps and have been researching the web. I have been following an AC thread (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=70331.0) by members Pez and Tyson who have come to the conclusion that the Penta Labs KT88 is better sounding than the Gold Lion reissues. Both tubes are based on the MOV KT88 but according to these fellows the Chinese are doing a better job for Penta Labs.
I'm interested in whether any AN members have an opinion to add to my confusion? Especially if you are using a VAC amp. I do know that the amps were originally designed around the Golden Dragon KT88 which is now pretty much unobtainium. I should mention that while I have a very nice stereo it was all purchased on the used market as my income level would never allow me to play on this level at the original retail prices. Thus I am looking for "affordable" tubes and that means I'm shooting to stay under ~$400.
Thanks you gentlemen.
BR,
JakeJ
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I have a McIntosh 275 and have EH, Svet, "McIntosh" and Penta Labs KT88's. Also a set of 6550's but I can't remember if they are Svetlana or Sovtek and a set of KT90's. In this amp the Penta KT88SC suits me the best. Note that "suits me" part... I'm sure there are others who would prefer one of the other combos and I have to say I like it with the EH's quite a bit but the Penta Labs seem to be the right combination of an organic sound combined with detail and transparency, as in low level information is readily apparent but not shoved in your face.
The small signal tubes are Siemens, Mullard and Amperex, so the output tube choice might change with different small tubes. Hard to say and at this point, I have lost the desire to tube roll in the amp.
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Thanks for responding, mgalusha. :)
First, I am aware that "in my amp" and "to my ears" are two deciding factors and that I too really must acquire a small harem, for lack of a better term, of output tubes and listen for myself as to what I like best. Also since the amp can run any type from 6L6 to KT88 I will need to try some variants too.
I do have some unjustified prejudice due to the previous owner telling me that within his period of ownership he had determined that the JJ KT88 was the best tube in the amp and they came with a very fresh octet. Having set them up in my system I was floored at the SQ. This was my first experience with an electronic piece of equipment having a transformational effect on my system. Prior to that only speakers had that dramatic of an effect and with speakers it's obviously intuitive why this is. Changing electronics had always had mostly subtle effects with the most dramatic being a change on overall voicing, i.e. darker or brighter, smoother or more etched, etc. When the VACs came into my system the effect was like someone removing blankets from my speakers this new level of clarity and transparency was jaw dropping! It's still exciting after nine months, five speakers, speaker cable upgrades, and various other tweaks. Here's (http://archive.audiocircle.com/systems/index.php?systemid=859) link to my system at present. Lately I have noticed I'm having to pay more attention to the bias and figured I may as well start looking for tubes.
So I will give the Pentas go but will also slowly rotate some others through. I have rolled some various 6SN7s from my stash including NOS RCA, NOS Tung-Sol, and some early Sylvania chrome-domes which are the cat's meow and remain in the amps with backups acquired. The amps take a pair in each monoblock.
There's more in store.
BR,
JakeJ
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Tubes I would be interested to hear in your incredible amp are:
Audio Research matched SED "winged C" 6550s - available on Agon occasionally.
Genelex Gold Lion Reissue KT88
Shuguang Treasure KT88
Great to hear you're enjoying the VAC so much. I want to get one when I grow up. Kevin Hayes is a really nice guy, and talented designer. They used to be here in NC.
My experience with various JJ tubes has not been positive. The quality is hit and miss. But some of the tubes they make do sound good, until they start making noise or blowing up. They are common in ew equipment becauset they often sound better than the New Sonsor cheapos, but they are not as reliable. Some of the JJs don't really sound so good. But like you said, depends on the amp.
Think of a tube as a resistor or a capacitor as part of the circuit, instead of like a tire or steak sauce which is a unique entity unto itself. One tube will sound completely different in two different amps. Ask people who own your amp what they like. Or ask experts like Jim McShane or Kevin Hayes what is best sounding tube for your taste in your amp.
The Treasures are expensive, but they do seem to be proving to be worth the money. I have Treasure 300Bs they are awesome.
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I too have a fondness for the VAC gear, perhaps someday. :)
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I have relatively new Shuguang KT66 s in my Supratek preamp and notice a marked improvement in quality over the previous hand picked Shuguangs from 2 years previous. These were just the basic models. Great sound, even I was suprised. Whatever they are doing its working.
Mike
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Hello Gents,
Sorry I haven't checked back in and thanks for the responses.
Richidoo-
OK, I'll have to start a list. :) I was about to buy the Gold Lions but after reading the above mentioned thread and asking here have decided to go with the Pentas first and later add the GLs to the tube harem. In my weak defense, I bought the amps brought 'em home and started listening and haven't really given much thought about the tubes other than rolling front-end tubes as I had them in house. I had not heard of reliability issues with the JJs before now, thanks for the heads up.
mgalusha-
Not bad lust to have. I am slowly hunting for a VAC preamp (preferably full function) as I am of the disposition that there is synergy to be had in mating electronics within the brand name.
Mike-
WTF?? Output tubes in a preamp? OK, I went to Supratek's website and...woah! Mr. Maloney produces some serious eye-candy! I see now you're using the KT66 in the tube regulator position and while the engineer will say it shouldn't make any difference what tube you put there as it isn't in the signal path but your ears say different, don't they? It's interesting how much effect changing a single component can have on a circuit.
Thanks again,
JakeJ
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You're gonna have good luck with those JJs, because those are your initials! If you listen and gave no thought to tubes, then stick with what you got!
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No way, dude! ;) Gotta try somethin' new. The JJs are plentiful enough at present that replacing them is easy and a little less scratch than the Penta, GLs, and other higher priced spread. Heck, I'm already contemplating getting a set of the GL KT77s due to the buzz about their liquidity. I can run them in triode mode with little or no feedback and see just how much goo I squeeze out of them. :-k
Now yer wondrin', "Why ain't he tried all this before now?" Well sir, at the time of aqcuisition of these here amps my main speakers were the venerable Von Schwiekert VR4 Gen III HSE and I wasn't getting the soundstage height and width I wanted. I tried Quad 988s with a Swarm from AudioKinesis. This was very good with the VAC amps but dynamically limited to a degree I couldn't accept in the long run. So my search began for a cone system and I stumbled across a pair of Genesis 501 that had been upgraded to the 5.2 level in a beautiful rosewood veneer. Previous owner also ran with VAC equipment with excellent results so I jumped on them. Damn glad I did, too. An almost $18K speaker for $6200 shipped to my door. They were just what I wanted from the VR4s, wonderfully balanced and cohesive top to bottom and now a big 3D soundstage. And actually far more extended and transparent than the VR4's, equaling the Quads but with a different presentation. So some time was spent dialing them in ans then I got completely sidetracked by power conditioners and tried the Majik Buss with Elektra cord, RSA Jaco with Mongoose cord, and the Audio Magic Stealth XXX with Sorcerer cord. The Audio Magic stayed. Added a few more AM power cords and am now really satisfied with the overall SQ I just need to tweak the speaker position carefully.
Well that's enough rambling for now. I have some Penta Labs KT88SCs on the way and will report back after they arrive. 8-[
BR,
JakeJ
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I think Lee, AN sponsor Cryoparts, is selling a quad of cryoed GL KT77.
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Isnt that crazy. KT 66 in a pre. Sounds great though. And the KTs definitely play a smaller role in the overall sound (The 6sn7s shape most of the sound) but they do give the sound air and body and a touch of warmth.
Mike
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UPDATE:
I have an octet of the Penta KT88SC tubes on their way. I will report back with the results.
BR,
JakeJ
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Another Update -
The Penta Labs KT88 tubes I ordered from Doug Preston of dougstubes.com (http://dougstubes.com) on Thursday morning arrived today at ~1 PM! That's fast delivery from Levittown, NY to Richland, WA in 2 days! WOW! :D/
I'll post my impressions in a few days. The delay is due to timing as the "Black Boxes" from Bob Smith of Aether Audio arrive today with the tubes and since the system is stable and I am very familiar with the sound at present it only makes sense to audition and evaluate the BBs first then I can send them to the next fellow in the demo tour and move on with my own tweaks. I figure on about a week, maybe less, to test the BBs.
Stay tuned,
JakeJ
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That is the same kind of service I had from Dougstubes. :D
No question about trying just the BB alone, no other way to isolate their effect.
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Good evening ladies and gents,
A quick update-
I finally got the Penta Labs KT88SC tubes installed in my VAC PA-160 amps today after a frustrating hour of going over each socket and opening up the pin cinches. Apparently the pins on the JJ KT88s are smaller and the previous owner "tensioned" them by using an awl to bend each cinch smaller. Jeez! :roll:
Right out of the box they biased up nicely and sound pretty good. Not quite as extended on top as the JJs and bass seems a bit light. After an hour things sounded constricted, bass almost nonexistent, and a totally 2D soundstage. #-o
-SIGH- This is going to be a long break in. 8-[
Stay tuned,
Jake
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3-4 years ago JJ made a lot of tubes of various types with pins that are a few thousands of an inch too small. IIRC, nominal pin diameter is about 0.094", or 3/32". This caused a lot of problems with poor connections. A really stupid way to fix the problem is to tighten the contact instead of returning the tubes. But that's great that you could fix it yourself. By now all of the small pin tubes should have been purged from the system. New JJs have the correct size pins.
Enjoy your break in time... 100 hours should do wonders.
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Hi Richidoo,
That is good info as I was quite leery of buying any JJ tubes. I really should have taken pictures of the two worst tube sockets. Several of the pin receivers had in an inverse bend somewhere in the circumference and most of them had overlapping at the seams. Lets see, 8 octal tube sockets that's 64 pin receivers (or whatever their real name is) each one requiring reaming twice with two different sized drill bits. And the bloody pins were still a tight fit. :!: But ultimately that's a good thing.
They are fairly inexpensive bakelite or phenolic with eutectic brass connectors so I can see replacing them with some nice ceramic units.
You hit the nail on the head about the p.o. being somewhat intellectually challenged. If you had been there the day I went to buy the amps you would have been asking :wtf: An interesting scenario to say the least and yes I'll spill it here in a future post. One must pace oneself you know.
Now excuse me, I have to go fire up the main rig and get some hours on these tubes. :D/
Jake
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I thought I was the only one using Mapleshade spkr. cables. Nice set up jake. For a while I thought my tubes were going south. In fact it was the sockets that were the culprit. For whats its worth, once replaced my tube noise was a thing of the past. I cleaned the existing sockets, tightened them up but again not until they were replaced did my tube dilemma end.
charles
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Hi Charles,
Thanks for the kind words. I read, with great interest, your writings concerning the Supra cables. :-k
I also am experiencing some faint crackling from the speakers at first turn on of the amps but it stops within a minute or so and seems to be related to warm-up. I am paying attention to this to see if goes away as the tubes run in. [-o<
What tube sockets did you choose? I am leaning toward these (http://www.partsconnexion.com/product9580.html) but at a total of $335.40 plus shipping I did make a gasping noise. Soon, though, soon.
Regards,
Jake
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I just retubed a preamp with 8 new tubes, It was noisy at first, and rough sounding, but after a few hours it smoothed out. It's just contaminants burning off.
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You can get Teflon sockets with machined pin receivers for somewhat less $$.
http://www.partsconnexion.com/product7503.html
I have used these in a few projects with good results. I have heard it's possible to wear out the teflon if tubes are pulled really often but I've never had this problem.
What tube sockets did you choose? I am leaning toward these (http://www.partsconnexion.com/product9580.html) but at a total of $335.40 plus shipping I did make a gasping noise.
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Hi Charles,
Thanks for the kind words. I read, with great interest, your writings concerning the Supra cables. :-k
I also am experiencing some faint crackling from the speakers at first turn on of the amps but it stops within a minute or so and seems to be related to warm-up. I am paying attention to this to see if goes away as the tubes run in. [-o<
What tube sockets did you choose? I am leaning toward these (http://www.partsconnexion.com/product9580.html) but at a total of $335.40 plus shipping I did make a gasping noise. Soon, though, soon.
Regards,
Jake
The Teflon babies at 19.95 woked out very well. Only needed 6 so not so bad. All the noise and minor crackling of the tubes is now gone,gone,gone. Pins are very tight. The jury is still out on the Supra cables. With the JPS in the house [ Aluminata] I've been playing around. The all JPS system is very warm sexy and quiet as a Church mouse. Colored but in a very pleasant way. Rich, full yet detailed enough. Very very quiet cable.
When I leave the JPS SC-3 IC in the system { from Pre to amp and sub and add the Supra Ply 5.1 spkr. cable I loose the fullness a bit but the clarity and dynamics are better. A trade off for sure but the difference in admission $5.50/ ft as opposed to over$1000/ft. is quite easy to accept. Yes overall the nod goes to the JPS. In all fairness the Aluminata did not have a great synergy with my amps [SET ]. The SC-3 would be a better match according to Shane.
Surprisingly the Stealth silver ribbons that were out of the system actually sounded quite good. I changed the caps in the amp to V-Cap Teflons and the smoother presentation of Teflon allowed the silver to syner do its thing, expose all. Neutral as neutral can be. Again thinner than the JPS but the detail and clarity was quite something.
So the Supra cable offered a bit of both the personalities of the JPS and Stealth. Not equaling either in total performance but the call was close too close for the price.
If I had the scratch an all JPS wired system would be the choice . Right now for my system the JPS ICs are the key IMO and the speaker cable can be the tradeoff.
charles
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Hi Gents,
Well I'm about 25 or so hours into the run in and they open up and then go thin over the course of a few hours but once warmed up well settle down to sounding quite nice, well balanced top to bottom, sweet on top. Amazing bass slam compared to the JJs in my amps. Also the JJs exhibit more sparkle in the treble so I may or may not like that when I go back to taste them again. Oh, all warm up noise seems to have gone away.
The Gold Lions are in so after the Pentas are done cookin' I'll plug them in and start it all over again. Wheee! :twisted:
More to come,
JakeJ
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The Gold Lions are in so after the Pentas are done cookin' I'll plug them in and start it all over again. Wheee!
That will be fun, they are very good.
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Absolutely! :mrgreen:
Russia's near best versus China's near best. It will be interesting. If I had the scratch it would be neat to do Black Sables versus Black Treasures. :drool:
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I have the Gold Lion KT88 and love them in my Music Reference amp. Prior to these I used Siemens EL 34's and 6550's from Audio Research batch. Looking forward to hearing how the GL sound in your system. Give them a few hours of break-in before critical listening. Should be better than good between 40-50 hours. They will be about 50% after 10-20 hours.
Henry
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Mornin' Henry!
Thanks for the tip. I found the Pentas had pretty much settled down after about the 50 hour mark as well. It's been pretty smooth sailing and I do like the more natural presentation they have over the JJs. I can safely say I won't be going back to the JJs as they are colored to my ears and the pins are too small (came from a bad batch several years back).
I'll be trying the GLs soon.
JakeJ
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I have a Vac PA100/100 and nothing beats the Real McCoy- Genelex pre 1970 KT88 tubes! I have sloe tried Richardson Electronics and they are good. I love my 1969 Gold monarchs!
...in your amp.
Hello fellow Tubeheads,
I am in the market for new output tubes for my VAC PA-160 amps and have been researching the web. I have been following an AC thread (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=70331.0) by members Pez and Tyson who have come to the conclusion that the Penta Labs KT88 is better sounding than the Gold Lion reissues. Both tubes are based on the MOV KT88 but according to these fellows the Chinese are doing a better job for Penta Labs.
I'm interested in whether any AN members have an opinion to add to my confusion? Especially if you are using a VAC amp. I do know that the amps were originally designed around the Golden Dragon KT88 which is now pretty much unobtainium. I should mention that while I have a very nice stereo it was all purchased on the used market as my income level would never allow me to play on this level at the original retail prices. Thus I am looking for "affordable" tubes and that means I'm shooting to stay under ~$400.
Thanks you gentlemen.
BR,
JakeJ
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Hi Lizard_king,
I'll bet original Genalex KT 88s are the cat's meow! What do you suppose a matched octet of NOS would cost? Unfortunately that's pretty much unobtainium for me. Looking around on A'gon and eBay I see an individual tube going for $175 and a quad is listed for $1499! Wow, is he ever proud of those!
You see, even if that $1500 was for an octet I could buy three octets of modern production KT 88s and have change leftover. That's how I have to think about it. I can wrap my brain around as much as $60-80 for a NOS small signal tube but they often go for much more. I'm a cheapskate by necessity.
I have yet to plug in my "Genalex" KT 88 reissues (fake) as I've been just a bit busy being sick with the flu, fortunately not the H1N1. I do expect there to be some differences between the Penta Labs and the reissue GLs as they are made in completely different factories, in different countries. It is kinda cool though as really this is a comparison of two different companies interpretation of the original. If I had the scratch to go NOS I would and still play around with the reissues including the Shuguang Black Treasures. :drool:
BR,
JakeJ
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Hey,
I have a matched Quad set of Richardson KT88 tubes that test excellent! Let me know if you want them.
Liz
I have a Vac PA100/100 and nothing beats the Real McCoy- Genelex pre 1970 KT88 tubes! I have sloe tried Richardson Electronics and they are good. I love my 1969 Gold monarchs!
...in your amp.
Hello fellow Tubeheads,
I am in the market for new output tubes for my VAC PA-160 amps and have been researching the web. I have been following an AC thread (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=70331.0) by members Pez and Tyson who have come to the conclusion that the Penta Labs KT88 is better sounding than the Gold Lion reissues. Both tubes are based on the MOV KT88 but according to these fellows the Chinese are doing a better job for Penta Labs.
I'm interested in whether any AN members have an opinion to add to my confusion? Especially if you are using a VAC amp. I do know that the amps were originally designed around the Golden Dragon KT88 which is now pretty much unobtainium. I should mention that while I have a very nice stereo it was all purchased on the used market as my income level would never allow me to play on this level at the original retail prices. Thus I am looking for "affordable" tubes and that means I'm shooting to stay under ~$400.
Thanks you gentlemen.
BR,
JakeJ
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Thanks for the offer LK but I need octets. The VAC PA-160 requires four output tubes per monoblock. I Googled Richardson tubes and got the Richardson Electronics, Ltd. website but found no KT 88 nor any standard audio tubes, just a lot of transmitting and receiving tubes. Is there a vendor for them?
I have to say the Penta Labs are very nice and I think maybe shed a hint of what could be the SQ of the Black Treasures. Keepin' my fingers crossed that Grant/Rachel/Shuguang put's em on sale again.
Have fun,
JakeJ
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Update - I pulled the Pentas today and plugged in the Gold Lions.
After a half hour warm-up period, during which I had one good pop from the left channel, I put on some music and let it play in the background. About an hour later I noticed the midrange and lower treble was cleaner and less congested sounding. Also I note they seem a bit more dynamic than the Pentas and bass is a bit more punchy. Time will tell.
YMMV,
JakeJ
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I am eagerly awaiting to hear your thoughts on the GoldLion after about 50 hours. Have you considered some tube dampers for your driver tubes? I have had good results with Herbies Ultra Sonics tube dampers on my 6922 driver tubes. The GL KT88 tubes have been great for me.
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Jake, just to push you over the edge, my Black Treasure 300Bs are the best tubes I have ever heard. They are finally broken in now after several hundred hours. No reason to think KT88 would be anything less, for pentodes, that is... ;) 6CA7 is known to be a supreme tube also.