Grover Interconnect Demo Tour

[Carlman]

I'd be very curious to hear the results from some of your suggestions for Nick's CIA amps.. I auditioned them and couldn't bear to listen for some of the sonic characteristics that Nick is describing.  Maybe I had a problem that would account for why I didn't enjoy them... and others do. 

It's amazing to learn this stuff... And reassuring to hear advice to fix rather than replace problem gear... It's much cheaper... and possibly more fun!   Thanks!

[Nick B]

Hi Rich
Thanks for your comprehensive response. Currently, I have very little transformer hum. It is intermittent, but maybe getting a DC zapper from Dusty (or a Blokker - can you provide a link?) could at least control that issue consistently.

I understand your concerns about going straight into the amp. I did that because some, including Wayne at Bolder, said that's the way to go. I have a passive preamp, something called a Cabledriver from Audience, that I took out of the chain many months ago. Maybe I'll put it back in, set the SB digital volume to 100%, and see what happens. Problem is, I'm really not a fan of the Slim Devices product. The interface is poor as is the remote IMO. As a computer simpleton, I dislike plugins, skins, etc etc. I've been looking for a plug and play setup with excellent fidelity (or at least the capability to be modded like the SB2), but I have yet to find it. Sonos looked promising, but apparently the basic parts and configuration aren't as favorable for modding. As to ripping and tagging, that's been a mess for me. I'm still learning. Because the basic wireless streaming hardware is not settled, I'm not inclined to get a stand alone attenuator. Plus, I love the convenience of remote controlled volume. I will pay attention to the brightness settings. Maybe that'll make a difference. Both the SB2 analog section and the power supply were done by Anthony at Aberdeen and should be top notch quality. 

There is potential for improved sound....now if I can just figure it out 
Nick

[Double Ugly]

Nick -

I agree with those who say going direct to the amp(s) is best.  I've yet to hear anyone who's heard a properly modified SB prefer the sonics of putting additional equipment between the SB and the amp(s).  The digital volume control works like a champ, and I encourage you to consider putting any money you'd spend for an attenuator towards additional modifications instead. 

I admit to having issues with static from the display, though, specifically when the display scrolled.  I didn't always have the issue; it appeared after my Ultimate PS was damaged in shipping and Wayne tried to fix it. 

'Course, all of the above is assuming there isn't something wrong with your amps.  Apparently you aren't the first to experience difficulties with the amps, but regardless of the root cause of the issue(s), I don't like the idea of putting additional equipment in the chain to mask a problem.  Trust me - if everything is working properly and the SB is properly modified, there is absolutely nothing wrong (sonically) with connecting it to your amp(s).  I'm not so arrogant as to claim it's the ultimate in quality, but it's the best *I've* heard, and a lot of others have expressed a similar sentiment.

That said, having tried both, I think you'd be *MUCH* happier with a Bolder-modified unit after receiving the Timepieces.  Anthony's approach takes care of much of the 'standard' issues, but the Bolder modifications are much more in-depth and result in clearly superior sonics.  The Maui version sounds one-dimensional in comparison. 

About this, I honestly cannot imagine your mileage will vary. 

As for ripping, etc., IMO Easy CD-DA Extractor is superior to every ripping program I've used, including EAC, but it only works on MS-based computers.  A Mac-flavored option is not available.  Easy CD is very intuitive, and does a lot of the work for you.  I'd be happy to help with the initial set-up if you'd like.

As for the SlimServer interface, I have to believe something isn't quite right.  If you think I might be of assistance, please don't hesitate to give me a call.  I'll bet we can figure out a way to makes things a *LOT* easier than they seem now.  I can find virtually anything I want in a matter of seconds, and there's no reason you shouldn't be able to do the same.

Some opinion, some fact (IMO), but either way, it's what I think! 

Take care,

-Jim

[Nick B]

Hi Jim
I admit to being picky as to some of my criticisms. But I'm just trying to squeeze some more performance out of what should be a somewhat better sounding system. I must be having some AC issues as my late  night listening is usually better...ie less harshness. I'm pleased with the CIA amps overall and maybe that's not the source of the sibilance. At least I can move those amps without screwing up my back. I have yet to have anyone comment on those particular Audiom tweeters...if they're a bit "hot" or not. Within 2 weeks, I expect to have the Timepiece 2.1's and that will provide a better point of reference for me. I do admit to being curious about Wayne's ultimate PS, but it's a steep price to pay, especially since we are in the process of budgeting for a new house. Of course I'm curious about power cords as well.
As to the SB interface, I can find my music, but it's not easy or intuitive IMO.

I have Easy CD/DA and have used it, but am not sure I have some of the settings correct. I just got the Plextools software and am trying that as well. Since you offered, I'd like to give you a call sometime and go over the SB and Easy CD/DA settings. That'd be quite helpful to me. As you have surely gathered by now, I have trouble with and an aversion to some software.
Thanks
Nick

[bpape]

Part of the trick to finding your music is to pay a lot of attention to the SlimServer setup in the ripping parameters.  One must also pay attention to things like categorizing artist correctly - ripping one album as Who and the other as The Who will certainly cause issues (though they're easy enough to fix - 'the' is an issue with freedb sometimes - you just have to watch).

You may also find it easier to find things by simply using the BROWSE MUSIC-> BROWSE MUSIC FOLDER option (assuming you set them up the way I do where the structure is: ARTIST-> ALBUM TITLE -> TRACK NUMBER/SONG TITLE).  Also don't know if you knew that you can use the number keypad to go direct so hitting the 9 key will take you directly to the W's.  Hitting 5 twice will take you to the K's, etc.

Bryan

[richidoo]

Thanks Bryan, that is a great trick. Much better than scrolling or using "Search"

Nick, you are in good hands with Jim, he has been down the same road you are following and learned a lot the hard way... My only concern is that when the aanalog amplification stage is removed in modding the SB you will be relying on the DAC itself to drive your interconnect cables and the amps. While the DAC will definitely sound much better, smoother, and more detailed than the analog stage, it may not be able to source enough current to produce the frequency extremes accurately. Since you have a buffer you can play with, you can easily experiment to see if this is so, and you can try the mod without worrying about the downside. If your buffer does not add any voltage gain, research whether you will have enough volume after removing the SB analog stage before you do it. If you like to play loud this might be a problem. I occassionally play my SB wide open into 26dB of gain, with 95dB speakers. I don;t stand close, and I have a huge room, and no-one else is home and someday the cops may come, but there is nothing like that feeling over overwhelming music shaking me and the whole house.  Timepieces are 89dB, I think so that is half as loud right off the bat, plus the mod of removing the analog stage in SB cuts the gain in half or more again. That would not be enough gain for me without an external preamp to bring it back up. These days volume controls don;t have to be ALPS pot, there are many other, better solutions that are less harmful to the signal than throwing away bits.

The link to the Blokker is in the previous post, but the font color does not change for hyperlinks, so links are not apparent. Maybe that can be tweaked so links show up better? Sometimes if I am very good student I will underline them too, but that is not always in the cards. Anyway, the blokker is just an electronic part that you would have to incorporate into the power circuit yourself. You would need two, one for each amp, (voids warrantee) or try to make an external device for power cords to connect, which would require a cabinet. No doubt Dusty's solution is perfect for your situation and made specifically for your amps. That's the way to go, and will be cheaper than a DIY project by the time you are actually finished buying tools and figuring out how to do it yourself if you are, like me, not an experienced electronics tinkerer.

I do agree with Jim and other fans of SB mods that the stock SB analog output stage is not worthy of the kind of "high end" electronics and speakers we talk about in this forum. Listening to Altmann DAC last week proved that to me beyond a shadow of a doubt. But the SB was more than fine enough for me during the first year when I had no idea what I was doing technically and when I was happy as a pig with my new system, even though there was a lot to improve. My cables and amp could not reveal a better SB even if I had it. But when I improved these things I can now hear the limits of the stock SB. I intend to use a external DAC instead of modding the SB.
Rich

[bpape]

I finally heard the full tilt boogie Bolder modded SB3 with the PS in MY system in MY room a few weeks ago.  No comparison to the digital out -> Paradesia - not even close.  The Paradesia will be relgated to second system duties.  I'm definitely going analog mods on the SB into a preamp.  That change got the last few things in my system to really line up nicely.  It's all about synergy - and in my system, it is exactly the sound I'm looking for.

Now, there are caveats to that....  Volume on the SB is left at full on all the time and I use the preamp for volume control (other than turning it down for the phone, etc.) 

Bryan

[Double Ugly]

Nick/Rich - 
First, the Timepieces are 85dB/8 ohm speakers, making them even less efficient than the 89dB postulated. 

Secondly, I'm driving them with amps rated at less than 150W/Ch (actually closer to 100W/Ch).

Thirdly, my room is decently sized at 13'x18', and with the large (~5') opening on the back wall, it is in someways similar to a 13'x30' room.

With the above configuration, I have no difficulty playing even the best, least compressed recordings I own to satisfactory levels.  And yes, depending on mood and program material, I do appreciate concert-level volumes.

CAVEAT...

Although neither the attenuation nor the gain seemed significantly increased (it's supposedly worth +6dB or more), pace was much improved with the addition of a Burson Audio Buffer in my system.  This came as a shock to me as I'd never added another component without the sound being negatively affected.  Even power conditioners leave me dissatisfied. 

The Burson Buffer was/is the reason I wanted to edit my post above (see "Why?" thread).  I'd forgotten the one component I'd added to the chain that actually improved the sound!  I believe others have found the same to be true in their systems, too.

That isn't to say you may not find it necessary to employ a preamp in your system, Nick; you might.  I offer the above only to say it wasn't necessary for me, though the Burson Buffer will be a welcome addition.

And I agree with Rich - it'd be really nice if hyperlinks were a different color.

Bryan -
Sounds like your experience is similar to mine. 

Wayne sent the Ultimate PS after I'd told him not to (told him I couldn't imagine it could be worth the price ), and its arrival marked the beginning of drastic changes to my system.  My wife noticed the improvement in the kitchen after returning from a trip.  She didn't even make it to the living room before saying, "It's worth it, isn't it?" 

-Jim

[miklorsmith]

Some time (no idea when, it's a big project) I'll be able to run a Lessloss vs. Altmann vs. Empirical Electrocompaniet vs. Paradisea vs. Full Tilt Bolder SB.  With the Red Wine Sig. 70 amps, I should be able to run comparisons with and without the active Lamm preamp.  Frankly, it's daunting.  It may take a couple of sessions to do it and I'd like to have at least one other listener present.  mca - you receiving this transmission?

So far, and I reserve the right to change my fickle mind, the only one of these choices I might be satisfied with long-term without the Lamm is the Altmann.  If I had different (warmer) speakers or amp that could change.  Even with the Yamamoto though . . . well, that's analysis for the next chapter I think.  Ultimately I decided the Yammie driven by those DACs through the TacT XP was tonally insufficient.  The Altmann direct to the Yamamoto could be a freakin' hammer but the setup will be a little tricky there.  It's something I'll try.

I haven't heard the Bolder Ultimate in my setup yet, I've only heard it at mca's.  So, I could easily be wrong there.  What I did hear wasn't tonally that different from my Red Wine version so far as I could tell.  Go ahead, string me up, different room, different speakers, different system, all true.  Getting it over to my place has been discussed and will happen.

We're a bit far afield here, eh?  

[richidoo]

We're a bit far afield here, eh?  

Yup - oops!! I didn't notice the segue, even though I hijacked it. 

The DAC off WEST sounds great. Be sure to let us know when that will be, you never know who might show up.

[Double Ugly]

I haven't heard the Bolder Ultimate in my setup yet, I've only heard it at mca's.  So, I could easily be wrong there.  What I did hear wasn't tonally that different from my Red Wine version so far as I could tell.  Go ahead, string me up, different room, different speakers, different system, all true.  Getting it over to my place has been discussed and will happen.

No "string(ing) up" is called for; you heard what you heard.  That said, my experience is 180 out from yours. 

I owned a full-bore, top-of-the-line RWA unit, and the Bolder/Ultimate PS combo slew the RWA in every conceivable way.  Seriously.  To be completely honest, the RWA unit wasn't even close to matching the Bolder's performance in any aspect, and my wife felt the same way.  In fact, the now-defunct "Basic" mod from Bolder easily outperformed RWA's best effort. 

I don't know mca's system, but I'm interested in how your perceptions change - or don't - after hearing it in your system.

We're a bit far afield here, eh?   

Ya think? 

I'm a contributing delinquent, too, Rich, so I'll join you in allowing the thread to return to topic.

-Jim

[mca]

It may take a couple of sessions to do it and I'd like to have at least one other listener present.  mca - you receiving this transmission?

I am the one that mentioned it to you, so I am ready to put on my Mickey ears and llisten 

Seriously, the Ack! is the only other DAC I have had in my system, so I am curious how the Bolder SB would do against those big hitters.

[Nick B]

Today, I (kinda) shipped the Grovers to the last stop on the tour. After everything was packaged, the local mail store (I hate going to USPS) told me they ran out of insurance and confirmation labels. So tomorrow, that should be in order and I'll provide the USPS Priority Mail tracking number.
I had 2 more in depth listening sessions late last might and mid day today. I also used a different power strip for the SB2 and PS with better results. I found a particular album from Nana Moskouri that I was very  familiar with. My final? impressions of the Grovers continue to be favorable. I think they are a bit smoother and have a bit more detail than the Reality Cables. For the money, they're quite a bargain. Not sure yet I'll buy, but I'll give it some serious thought.
As to the last few years, I've tried to keep my setups more simple. I like the idea of going straight into the amp. Anthony only modded the analog section. He didn't do the "hacksaw mod". I'm trying to avoid separate dacs. Have heard good things about the Burson, but trying to avoid adding more stuff. In theory, my Audience Cabledriver should do the same thing as the Burson. Output impedance is about 3 ohms (not that I know or appreciate what that means). The preamp is somewhere in the garage along with my 2nd set of Reality Cables. My modded Cabledriver has a Dact attenuator, so sonics should be good and that might be an interesting experiment. Anyone have an idea what the output impedance is of a modded SB 2 is? 

On another topic, I looked at different SlimDevices settings and browsed via the music folder. That is indeed easier, but the music displays somewhat different in other modes. I will be going through my 
folders and renaming for consistency and ease of finding music. 

If Wayne had a tour of his ultimate PS, it would be fun to try. But that would probably be the only way I'd hear it. Since I'm not a fan of the SB interface, I'm quite hesitant to spend the $$ for an ultimate ps.

It's getting late and I'm sure I've missed some of the particulars of the various posts, but I'm going to call it a night

Nick

PS anyone recall if the Straley Reality I/C white heat shrink is the the amp end? can't find my notes and squeezing into my cabinet and changing them is a big pain

[Double Ugly]

'Course it's system dependent (as always), but I'd recommend giving the Grover's cables another try after receiving the Timepieces.  I doubt the tour will still be in effect, but maybe you can snag a pair or two from Chris (aka 'loan'wolf). 

FWIW, they performed *very* well in my system, whereas the Reality ICs... well... not so much.  I'm still using the Reality SCs, though.  Great cables IMO.

As for an Ultimate PS tour, one is happening (<-- that's a link!) as I type, but Wayne wanted a quick tour and closed (audition) bidding the same day he opened it.  Too bad, especially given your proximity to him.  You might've been first on the list. 

As for the interface, I saw where you've contacted someone else in an attempt to find common ground with your SB.  Your post read as though things are improved, but not quite there yet.  I think (hope) you'll find that, as you spend more time setting up folders, etc. to suit you, navigation is actually much easier and more intuitive than you currently believe.  We ALL experienced growing pains when SlimServer was first introduced.  Some more than others, yes, but it really isn't that bad.

Otherwise, maybe I'll take it off your hands when you find something more to your liking. 

Take care,

-Jim

[richidoo]

Output impedence of modded SB2 will depend on the mods   Stock is ~220ohms. Many mods remove the the output stage which amplifies the DAC output and lowers output impedence. So with such a mod the DAC is driving cables and input stage of following amps. DAC output has some consideration of output impedance but this is intended for short runs on PCB to output stage (usually opamp) which is usually an easy load.

Glad you like the cables. Realitys are a tough act to compare to.
Rich