Grover Interconnect Demo Tour

[bobrex]

The Grovers are in DA HOUSE!  Picked them up from the PO on Saturday, but I was too busy to install them until Sunday night (father-in-law went in for bypass surgery on Thursday and there were some complications - everything seems to be ok now.)

My first round of testing (which is as far as I got) was to replace the interconnect (Wireworld Eclipse II) between my Herron phono stage and my Joule Electra line stage.  Test records were David Darling "Cycles" on ECM, "Sketches of Spain" on Classic, Maddy Prior "Woman in the Wings" on British Chrysalis, and "Tea for the Tillerman" an Island 25th anniversary pressing.

"Cycles" (side 2)- I'm hearing more detail, all of a sudden there is an echo (either room sound or an effect - it's to subtle to tell) on Darling's cello.  Bass is as deep and maybe a little more defined.  There seems to be more high frequency energy - the triangle is cleaner and more disticnt in space.  Width and depth increased slightly, with more space between the players.  The acoustic guitar picked up some definition too.

"Sketches" (Side 1) - The Conceirto sounded a little pinched on the horns, but I have a feeling that's the way it's supposed to sound.  Percussion (the castanets, maraccas, and tamborine bells) gained in clarity.  The brushes on the drum kit were more defined, and I was able to hear the cymbal work in the beginning bars for the first time.  

"Woman in the Wings" (side 1) - Ian Anderson does buried background vocals on the song "Rollercoaster".  The Grover was able to pull his voice out further than just about anything I've tried before (the Silver Fi cables that were part of a November AC tour were just as good at this).  Rick Kemp's opening bass line had slightly better definition.

"Tillerman" (Side 2) - I started with "..Into White"; the bass line was woody and slightly fat, just as an acoustic bass should be.  Guitars were clean and bright, each separated from the other (Alun Davies and Stevens).  On "Father and Son" the plaintive emotion of the song comes through and the background vocals were better spearated from the main, giving more pain to the lyrics.

So my initial impression is that the Grover has more upper mid and high energy and better upper mid and hifh freq. dynamics than the Wireworld without sacrificing anything on the bottom.  

I'll neet to play more to determine which is more correct, but for the time score one for the Grovers.

Next up is classical music (I'll probably pull out some Lyritas and Classic RCAs.)  Then I'll swap out the linestage - amp cable (need to rearrange one of the amps to do this.)

I'll report more tomorrow.

[richidoo]

Hey Bob! I like to listen to Sketches too. When I got my hifi I heard all kinds of things that went buried for the first 20 years. See if you can hear the rolling tymp or bassdrum playing pppp underneath Miles solo passage in the middle of the tune. On mid fi it sounds like noisy record rumble, or just an "old recording from the 50s." But when the muck is cleared out you can hear the individual drum hits of the roll, they are very quiet. Good test for black background. Grovers should help bring it out a bit with their detail retrieval. Sounds like you're having fun with them. Looking fwd to your opinion with all Grovers line & phono compared to your cables.

[bobrex]

Hey Rich,  I think I know where you mean, I believe it's the kick drum, I don't recall any "tympanic" tone, but I'll when I put both sets of cables in.

[Woodsyi]

Just received them.  I will check them out this weekend.



http://new.photos.yahoo.com/rrrsyi/photo/294928804375902727/0

[Woodsyi]

They are very musical cables.  I compared them to RS Audio Illume   http://www.rscables.com/page4.html
and Audioquest Jaguar. http://www.avguide.com/products/product-2867/

Testing equipment:

PC > Offramp > Northstar 192 DAC > SWLP SE > Wavelegth Duetto > Omega Super hemps.  Grover interconnects were used between the DAC and preamp and preamp to amp.  When I compared them with others only the interconnect between the DAC and preamp was switched out.  Amp-preamp connection was too cumbersome to switch with them being tube gear.  

Music used:

01. Eva Cassidy - [Time After Time #06] Penny to My Name [3:41]
02. Aram Gharabekian - [Prokofiev/Tchaikovsky: Romeo & Juliet #01] Romeo and Juliet, Suite No. 2 for orchestra, Op. 64 ter: No. 1, "Montagues and Capulets" [6:25]
03. Charlie Parker - [Billie Holiday / Charlie Parker & Billie Holiday #01] How Deep is the Ocean [3:19]
04. Django Reinhardt - [At His Best: Sweet & Lowdown (Disc 1 of 2) #09] Georgia on My Mind [3:16]
05. Heart - [Dreamboat Annie #03] Crazy on You [4:53]
06. Joe Cocker, Jennifer Warnes - [Ultimate Collection #11] Up Where We Belong [3:52]
07. Joni Mitchell - [Blue #01] All I Want [3:34]
08. Judy Collins - [Wind Beneath My Wings [Laserlight #1] #08] The Rose [5:07]
09. Joan Baez - [Diamonds & Rust #01] Diamonds & Rust [4:46]
10. Los Lobos - [By the Light of the Moon #11] Tears of God [3:46]
11. Mahalia Jackson - [The Apollo Sessions 1946-1951 #01] In the Upper Room [6:00]
12. Martina McBride - [Martina #09] In My Daughter's Eyes [3:14]
13. The Moody Blues, London Festival Orchestra, Peter Knight - [Days of Future Passed #01] The Day Begins [5:50]
14. Claudio Abbado, Ambrosian Singers, Richard Amner, Teresa Berganza, Ileana Cotrubas, Plácido Domingo, Leslie Fyson, George Watson College Boys' Chorus, Stuart Harling, Yvonne Kenny, Jean Laine, Robert Lloyd, London Symphony Orchestra, George Main, Sherrill Milnes, Shirley Minty, Alicia Nafe, Geoffrey Pogson, Gordon Sandison - [Bizet: Carmen #09] Carmen, opéra-comique in 4 acts: Act Two - No 16: Air de la Fleur: La fleur que tu m'avais jetée [4:14]

I don't know what the deal is but I really could not hear much difference between these cables.  I mean they all sound really good.  If I had to make a distinction, I would say the Grover may be touch smoother than Illume.  All of them had good stage width and depth with clear location of instruments.  Illume retrieved a little more treble detail but Grover was smoother with more natural decay.  All of them did voices -male or female- wonderfully.  Grover had the least sibilance.  Bass wasn't deep with these speakers (they are not set up for corner boost) but what was there was fast and natural on all three cables.  I could live with any of these cables.  I will say that I got tired of listening for things and just started to listen and enjoy music on the third day.  I started listening to vinyl with Grover cables in place and I enjoy it very much.  I think there is good synergy with analog source.

Being this close, I won't replace 7 pair of Illume, but I will probably get a couple so not to miss out on the deal.   I can try them on different rooms.

[shep]

Thanks Woodsyi for this update. I'm salivating (yuck). I don't know any of the other cables but it sounds like they are in the same price-group and so it's a more realistic comparison than the uber-high costing ones (like the Indra). As I posted elsewhere, my ancient Straight Wire Maestros will be my bench-mark. My system is so revealing that this should be an easy do (after suitable burn-in)

[gjkphd]

The cables have arrived in sunny Florida.  I will listen to them this weekend

[gjkphd]

I've had a chance to listen to the Grover cables and I'll be sending them to their next stop tomorrow.  One caveat is that I was only able to use one pair of cables due to length requirements.  I did some A/B comparisons using the Grover to connect from my DAC to pre amp.  The equipment chain is--

Theta Carmen II transport>Virtual Dynamics Nite III Digital Cable>Audio Logic 24 MXL DAC>Grover IC/Reality Cables IC>VAC Renaissance MK II Preamp>Reality Cables XLR IC>Pass Labs X250.5 amp>Reality Cable speaker cable>Reimer Wind River GS speakers.

I also did some headphone listening through a DarkVoice336i amp and Beyerdynamic DT990 phones.

So since I could only use one pair of Grover's I am really testing the synergy betweeen the Grovers and the Reality cables, which are used througout the rest of my sytem.  I also note that this was not nearly as much fun as when I initially received and demo'd the Black Sand Silver Ref V PC against my old cord.  With that comparison the BS was a clear and decisive winner.

The music I used included--
Joe Walsh-- County Fair from mini-lp
Annie Lennox--Love Song for a Vampire
Dire Straits--Brothers in Arms JVC XRCD
Sia--Breathe Me
Beck--Everybody's Gotta Learn Sometime
Ali Farka Toure--Ai Du
Genesis--Dancing with the Moonlit Knight mini-lp
Oregon--Canyon Song

I found some subtle differences that I would characterize this way--The Grover is a very fast cable, I could clearly hear attack and decay characteristics of some pieces were more pronounced.  The Grovers also did a fine job of presenting a soundstage that very clearly allowed me to hear and distinguish different instruments. If this is what other posters mean by detail the Grovers excel at that.To me the Grovers had a very extended high end which was not always pleasing as it added a sibilance to some vocal passages.  Overall it was neutral and dry to me.  With the Reality Cables back in, to me the oveall presentation was more dynamic, musical, and was a more satisfying listening experience. Incidently, I roped my wife (not literally, mind you) into some of the listening tests.  She wouldn't know Kardas from Kmart, Wadia from Wal-Mart, ok stop me here before I keep going with this,  She preferred the Reality Cables every time

Overall, the Grover does seem like a fine cable and I may very well have had different results had I used a second Grover from pre to amp.  So I either prefer the Reality cables or preserving the synergy of the Reality cables in my system is a better fit for me.  

It's on to Colorado for the Grovers

[jrebman]

Sadly, the cables have left Colorado and are headed to the watermellon fields of southern Utah and should be there by Thursday.

I'm going to put the Realitys back in the system now for a couple of days and listen to the same materials over to see what my overall impressions are after going back to the familiar, then I'll post my thoughts.  Warning: I may be tempted to gush a bit

-- Jim

[Nick B]

The cables have arrived in so. Utah (Jim..I'm still looking for those watermelon fields   ). Unfortunately, I'm also waiting for my hard drive to be returned with all my ripped music to run my modded SB 2. Expect to have everything working fine next week.  
Nick

[AcidJazz]

So what's the status of the tour? I am ready to place my order... 

[Nick B]

I have the Grovers and have been able to listen for a couple of days. Fortunately, Rich was able to figure out an error message I was getting when trying to do a "clear and rescan" on Slimserver. I got free phone support from Rich. Very much appreciated, Rich!!! Now, all is well with my SB 2. There's one more stop, then back to Rich. I expect to have 'em for a few more days. Will post impressions later. I am impressed so far, but I have some acoustic limitations which I'll explain in a few days.

Nick

[richidoo]

Glad it's working for you, Nick. We are looking fwd to hearing your impression of the cables.

The demo tour cables will go to Duke for a final, repeat stop due to his malfunctioning equipment. He is gonna try them as analog and digital ICs, with his full blown DCs rig, which should be interesting  . The cables on tour are nominally analog RCA ICs, so I don't know how well they'll work as digital, but we'll find out! With Altmann DAC GB looming  [-o<I finding out how the Grovers work as digital cable will be interesting.

I intend to close the GB by the end of June. I will double check that the order placing email address still works after the website host change and then open the floodgates in the next day or two. Thanks for the nudge AcidJazz.
Rich

[Nick B]

Well, I've had the Grovers and my SB 2 is running glitch free. My system consists of a SB 2 and separate power supply, both courtesy of Anthony at Aberdeen. SB 2 is straight into the CIA D200 amps. Speakers are Aria 7's from Zalytron. This is an MTM configuration. Speaker cables are Gregg's Reality Cables.

I used all kinds of music....some very well recorded and some rather poorly. Vocals were Roy Orbison, Buddy Holly, Nana Moskouri, Jennifer Warnes, Sarah Brightman, Basia, Olivia Newton-John, Andy Williams, Dean Martin, Enya, Patsy Cline and Elvis. Instrumental/orchestral were mainly ballroom music as this is a hobby that my wife and I both enjoy. Those were Claude Blouin, Werner Tauber, The Columbia Ballroom Orchestra,  Hugo Strasser, John Williams, Gunter Noris and Alfred Hause. This is an eclectic collection. Tim at AC had quite a bit of trouble ripping and tagging my stuff.

Now, I definitely have some acoustical problems. My speakers are too close to the front of my huge music cabinet and too close to one side wall. There is also a heavy chair that I don't want to move as I'm getting treatment for some joint problems. I dislike gettin' older.  I also have a slight buzzing coming out of the D200's. That is a bit intermittent and may be related to a DC problem. CIA has a humbuster type product, but I really don't want to spend the cash for that now. I got rid of all my Quiet Lines a few years ago, so I have no active or passive conditioning of any kind.

With all that as a caveat, I was quite pleased with the Grovers. These were very musical cables...great detail and a nice top end. The mid range was quite right and not too forward. Bass response was good, but my speakers are not "bass hounds" and my music is not focused on the bass, rather the mid range. There was an very good soundstage presentation. I could easily place vocals and instruments. The sounstage depth was quite good, but not great. In spite of the nice top end, there was a persistent sibilance. This is either a problem with my speakers (likely) and /or the buzzing problem with the D200's. These Zalytron speakers  use Audiom TD5 (I'm pretty sure) tweeters. I have no idea whether this is an "aggressive" type tweeter or not. My hunch is that it is. With all of that in mind, I'm unsure whether I'll buy the Grovers. I do like the detail and presentation. The treble with the Grovers is not quite as much of a problem with the sibilance. But I'm not sure it makes sense to buy new IC's when I have the SP Timepiece 2.1's coming and I have unresolved issues with my amp buzzing. Also, I am considering replacing a power cord (or paying someone to do it) on a "gizmo" (ADE 24) from Margules Audio I bought at CES a couple of years ago. But I will leave that for a separate post here. Thanks for including me in the tour. These will be going out on Monday.
Nick 

[richidoo]

Hi Nick, thanks for a nicely written and very honest review!

As for the buzzing, that is likely one of two things. The 1st as you mentioned is DC on the AC line, which causes the big toroid transformer in your D200s to hum, but that is physical as well as some in audio signal too. If you put your ear against the amp you should be able to hear the physical 60Hz low freq hum pretty oudly if it is a problem. Some low level humming is to be expected but audible only if your ear is on the amp. You can kill it with Dusty's new DC zapper. I also saw this recently: Blokker.

The other possiblity is due to the way you are using your SB. It is sexy to connect it straight to the amps, but when you start climbing the high end ladder a bit higher than the bottom rung, using high resolution speakers amps and now cables as you are, the SB is not a high end component in stock form and could be responsible for some of the gook your are hearing.

When you use the SB built in digitalvolume control, you are reducing the quality of the analog signal, and then amplifying the noise created by 26dB in your amp (or32dB in CIA optional high gain case) where it is easily heard with a revealing speaker. One way to fix this is to eliminate the noise caused by the digital volume control by using volume setting 100. Then attenuate the clean but too loud signal with an external volume control of some sort. There are volume controls that are virtually noise free, and some of them aren't too expensive. True, an older traditional mid fi preamp or HT receiver will audibly affect the sound, but modern preamps that guys are recommending as good values on various preamp comparison threads are plenty good enough, running used about 500+. There are cheaper alternatives to an active preamp, but a quick list would be Goldpoint attenuator ($400 in a box with connectors), 50k version (I think) for the D200's 100kohm inputZ. Lightspeed attenuator is a state of the art VC (at $400), as well as Promitheus TVC reviewed by Sam Tellig in this month's Stereophool ($450 and up for control options). If you are handy, make your own volume control with a bracket and an ALPS potentiometer for $50 total.  Another good sounding pot is this hot molded carbon pot. These are all passive attenuators, meaning they do not beef up the signal to help maintain linear frequency response in difficult impedance matching situations. You don't really have that problem, so a passive should work fine for you, especially a TVC (transformer volume control like Promitheus, which behaves more like an active preamp without being active). Having a good stout linear power supply helps with this too, also improving SB sound in many ways. An external volume control will get rid of the gritty sound from using the digital volume control in the SB. It is subtle to most, but depending on how revealing your system is. Your new speakers are state of the art transparency, although at a lower efficiency, so the buzzing should become less apparent, but with more detail, so it could be just as annoying.

The other possibilty (and most likely) for the buzzing sound is the SB's flourescent display. This noise is very prominent in the right channel, but still audible in the left too. Shutting off the display with the remote's brightness button will reduce this buzzing dramatically. But the buzzing is a function of the brightness and the fixed gain analog output stage and so can only be attenutated by reducing brightness or by using an external volume control. The buzz is added to the signal after the digital volume control in the SB, so the SB volume will not reduce the display buzz. This becomes especially noticeable when connecting SB straight to high gain amps and efficient, revealing speakers. CIA amps have a graceful high end, you should hear the buzz on Nuforce amps!! 

The SB lets you set two different brightness levels, one for when you are navigating with the remote, and another setting when you are not navigating, but just listening. It switches to the second setting after some seconds of no remote commands. Set the navigate setting to full bright, and the other to full off. This will minimize the buzz to happen only when you are browsing with the remote. Actually it is still there, even when full dark on the display, but it is not as noticeable unless you stick your ear in it. Adding the grovers or any good clear wires will make it seem worse because the brightness of the buzz will be more audible as the transparency increases.

I hope this is helpful Nick. I've been there too, glad to be able to pass along the hard won secrets of SB happiness!
Rich