AudioNervosa
The Market => Group Buys, Groupons, and Tours => Topic started by: miklorsmith on June 12, 2007, 07:16:45 AM
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Charles has given me the go-ahead to gauge interest in a GB of his DAC and amp. How many interested folks are out there? Just as importantly, how should something like this get set up? AN has done a couple of these so any advice would be helpful.
I may or may not be coordinating this. My life is really crazy right now. I think Rich said he might be able to, and since he's done it that might be a good idea. If Charles needs me to do it for comfort factor then I will.
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One thing to know is how much of a discount is Charles willing to do... That will factor heavily into how many are interested. For instance, I'd be VERY interested in a 50% discount... but not at all if it were 10%...
John at BSC and Grover did a quantity to discount rate... so, the more people bought, the more the discount...
So, first I'd ask Charles if we had 3, 6, or 9 commitments, what would he do for a discount, that'd probably be the best way to start.
Second, the rules of the GB have to be pretty concrete... and I've laid out most of them at the top of the Group Buy section...
That's my first thoughts on the matter...
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I am serious about buying DAC and maybe amp. I have seen used version of these disappear quickly in the used market so I am not worried about it not working out. The excitement about them is spreading and there is a demand. The full prices are just slightly above what experienced practical audiophiles would think appropriate, considering everything about it other than the sound, which could be thought as a bargain. Lowering it significantly for a quantity order would push it into critical mass where a more people would bite. He has a large potential market in America, and this GB makes it easy for influential audiophiles in the community to buy the products and spread the word faster.
I am happy to administer the buy, and interface with Charles as needed. I can be very comfy :) Carl can receive the money by paypal. I can receive and distribute the booty.
Since the units (amp & DAC) cost roughly the same, perhaps he can create a discount structure for raw unit count. 3, 5, 10, 15. I would appreciate receiving a 35% discount at 15 units. That would make selling it (if necessary) easy and make it a no brainer for anyone with the cash to try it out. He would get a lot of exposure.
What about spreading the word about this? There have been posts about Altmann products on a few other forums and some of those people might try it and maybe even become welcome members of AN. Does word spread easily enough on its own or should we evangalize a little? 8)
Rich
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I'd have to say that I would be pretty interested in this GB...he says while trying to tell himself NO, NO :drool:!
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I might depending on timing. My daughter's wedding is eating up most of my cash right now....
Bryan
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I might depending on timing. My daughter's wedding is eating up most of my cash right now....
Bryan
that's easily fixed.... just do like my sister... food was potluck, and Nova Scotia has (had?) a policy of granting liquor licenses for a day for weddings. They bought all the booze and resold at the reception for a profit. It paid for the entire wedding including honeymoon and they had $2K left over..... I think that says more about the consumption habits of family and friends than anything else :) People still talk about that wedding 14 years later. People that were seen dancing on tables with centerpieces on their head haven't had a drink since that night ;)
I must say that it is startling how much Americans spend on weddings and how it is expected that the parents cough up the cash for it.
back to our regularly scheduled group buy discussion....
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Ha! Good story. I'll go back to Charles and see what he's brewing up price-wise.
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Guys:
I know some of you have listened to the Altmann DAC and unfortunately I missed the opportunity to hear one Saturday Evening. I am curious about how you would deal with the issue of having a rather large 12Volt Battery to hide near the rest of your equipment? Certainly, I could not imagine bringing anything other than a Optima Gel cell battery into my house.
I visited the Altmann BYOB website and if I read correctly the basic DAC is 750 Euro with the price increasing up to 1345 Euro depending on options selected. Based on today's exchange rates that is $998 up to $1790 US. Which unit (what options) have you listened to and recommend for purchase?
I have currently having Wayne modify my Squeezebox 3 (analog mods) but could potentially in joining in this group buy pending the discount offered.
Ken
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As Carl suggested, knowing the volume/discount relationship is necessary. I am interested.
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Hi Ken
We had a good time, wish you could have come - next time? Soon we'll need to pile into your house to hear your new toys. :mrgreen:
Mike's DAC that we auditioned is loaded with all available options. Full sample rates, and JISCO. I didn't notice if it also had TOSLINK input, but I don;t remember seeing any blank spots on the PCB! We listened to 44.1 and JISCO on or off wasn't noticeable with Oracle CD1000 transport. SB jitter isn't too terrible, but I didn't notice a difference there either. Higher sample rates are certainly audible and worthwhile, but software is limited. It can't D/A SACD, but can playback DVD-A, or DVD-v sound if you have any music video movies, etc. I could be very happy with 44.1 and no JISCO.
Hopefully as ATT/Verizon/et al start bringing fiber optic internet connectivity into the house we will have download speeds high enough to warrant music being published online in hi res formats. When/if that happens a DAC that can unwind 96kbps will be useful. "I can dream, can't I?"
:D
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Ken...
I am curious about how you would deal with the issue of having a rather large 12Volt Battery to hide near the rest of your equipment? Certainly, I could not imagine bringing anything other than a Optima Gel cell battery into my house.
When I auditioned the Altmann, I did not use a big car battery...used a small CSB battery that Mike M. had included.....5.5" L x 1.89" W x 5" H.....seemed to work fine. 8)
http://www.csb-battery.com/english/01_product/02_detail.php?fid=9&pid=43 .....Cost $25.00 to $30.00.
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Carl....
For instance, I'd be VERY interested in a 50% discount... but not at all if it were 10%...
50% off... :shock:
That's not realistic Carl....a guys gotta eat...maybe 25% - 30% off.....that would be nice. 8)
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Well.. I was trying to make a point... bigger discount = more sales.. ;)
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I watch car shows on the weekend. Those guys have been raving about Optima batteries for years. Not only because of the electrical performance, but because of the superior vibration tolerance, and ability to mount in any orientation. The red top cycles very deep for a std car battery, has much higher density compared to typical SLA. The yellow top battery that they make is a deep cycle for campers, boats, etc, designed for lower peak currents, but greater Ah capacity. Same chemistry (quiet), different construction. Optima's and any gel cell with no maintenance ports on top are comletely sealed and very safe. The things you need to be careful about to insure 100% safety is not shorting the terminals, buy a safe automatic charger/trickler (http://batterytender.com/product_info.php?products_id=2) to avoid overcharging, and don't let the cats/kids gnaw on the terminals, they are lead. If I remember correctly the red top comes with plastic covers to protect the leads.
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Official word -
15% off over 5 total units, no further breaks.
One might look at this as a great deal, or not so much. I consider my fully loaded Attraction a great deal at the retail price, others may not.
Shall we continue the discussion?
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Since I don't really have a horse in this race (but was seriously considering getting one to play with... hey, I have Black Sand Cable power cords here because they're better than anything I've tried for the same money. I'm not opposed to displaying and showing something I don't directly sell so I can show potential customers the best stuff to buy for the money and get satisfaction (and it helps out the little guy and makes me feel like I'm helping the industry a bit). I'd even drawn out some plans for a case of sorts for the unit that my cabinet maker could put together for me. It's so darn ugly in current form I couldn't show the unit as is.... aesthetics are important and this has about the lowest WAF of anything I've ever put in a listening room). But with the above post about group buy pricing either:
a) the manufacturer is running rail thin margins on these things (unlikely given what it's made of and what appears to be there for the money) or
b) that's an.... ahem.... "disappointing" group buy deal (I originally had other words there and thought better of hitting "Post"). Just my opinion of course.....
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I wouldn't disagree at all, that's why I posed the question of whether we wish to continue.
15% is better than we'll get if we really want to buy the things but not enough to make an Agon sale even-steven if/when we want to sell.
These things are definitely not trophy-hunter material.
I don't have a stake in this either. I wouldn't care if we decide not to proceed and if people want a nice piece at a discount that's great too.
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15% off over 5 total units, no further breaks.
Mike, thanks for contacting Charles about the GB.
I'm pretty sure I'm gonna buy DAC and maybe amp anyway, so I'm glad to get any discount. I think the popularity will continue to increase and Charles will continue to raise the price to match his production speed with demand.
I assume the BYOB amplifiers are included in the count?
Rich
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As they say..."a penny saved is a penny earned", so 15% off is better than nothing off.
And since I rarely sell anything, and these units scarcely show up on the used market, I'd still be interested in a GB.
It did sound good during my audition.... ;)
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Amps are included in the piece-count.
Do we want to go to the other boards and "advertise" the buy here?
Rich - I'll plan on you being the point man.
And, I guess we need to start tabulating who wants what.
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Mike....
You might send a PM to those that auditioned the Altmann while it was on tour to see if their interested in a discounted GB... ;)
Chris
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I will ask Carl to make an emailbox for orders. I will post a GB thread when the apparatus is in place. I will post a spreadsheet with running order details.
A month is enough time right?
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You might send a PM to those that auditioned the Altmann while it was on tour to see if their interested in a discounted GB... ;)
So right, and, done!
Thanks Rich, a month should be plenty of time.
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Cool, this is shaping up nicely. I too am disappointed in the discount.. I was hoping for a sliding scale... 15 for 3, 20 for 5, 25 for more... etc... But I got to thinking that it may be that it just takes a long time to build each one regardless... So, building 5 doesn't get any economy of scale for Charles...
I do consider this one of the best sound DAC's I've heard, though. And I was planning on building a case for it also... possibly AC options, etc... We'll see... I need to make the money first... Which is tough to come by lately.
For the GB official thread, I'd like to see is a concrete list of products and the options we are buying. Charles' site is informative but verbose... (and should be referenced in the GB)... but so should a simple list of products and options so we know exactly what we're ordering. BTW, the email is setup.... byobgb+audionervosa.com.
And yes, Mike, I think there should be a link to AN's GB from anywhere you choose to link it... I think it's noteworthy in your final review that the demo tour sparked a group buy. ;)
Thanks again for the opportunity to hear it!!!
-Carl
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Good ideas, Carl. I suppose that is complimentary to the Tour that people liked it enough to buy.
I know of at least one experienced power supply builder that makes AC-based supplies specifically for the Altmann, Paul Hynes. The one comment I saw about it was the owner liked the sound better than battery, FWIW, YMMV, etc.
Once I get the DAC back, I will be writing up a post mortem and I'll surely reference the group buy there. And, I'll get Charles to write up the goods/options list for posting here.
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I'll prepare the thread when we hear back about the options, pricing, etc. I was reading that 17 page DAC thread on AC last night, where Paul Hynes chimed in back in April. Been meaning to look at his website. I do remember the interesting article on DACT website where their 12V power supply was compared to battery and trounced it in speed and noise. Of course that was not Optima, which should be expected to behave differently than typical SLA.
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Watching for the official GB thread. ... will decide by then, but leaning that way.
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I emailed Charles Altmann with some questions yesterday. As usual, his quick response was informative. His comments are interposed with my email. My comments are preceded by ">". In another separate response to this email, Charles voiced his concern about the shipping/insurance/duties issues. I have written back to him asking a few more detailed questions. I will publish that when I hear back from him.
Rich
> Hello Charles,
Hey Rich,,
> I am still deciding about the BYOB amplifier, so I hope you can answer
> another batch of questions. Hopefully I will be able to pass along the
> answers to others considering the DAC and BYOB amp.
>
> When the DAC and amp are playing together, do you recommend a preamplifier
> between them for current buffer?
No.
99,9% of all existing preamps cannot match the power of the Attraction DACs
output.
So there's a chance that you would not buffer the current, but take some
away ;)
> Most <$1000 CD players improve with this,
> but the unrestricted current source of the battery power supply might
> obviate this need.
Try it out :)
> The DAC's output seemed just a little louder than the other DACs to which we
> compared it. Is the nominal output voltage typical ~2Vpp? Can you specify
> the DAC's output impedence?
the output voltage is about +/- 4 Volt peak to peak.
> What is the input impedence of the BYOB amplifier?
about 10 kOhm
> What is the available voltage gain of the amplifier using nominal 12VDC
> power supply?
don't know in numbers, but it is high gain.
> Is the potentiometer volume control on the BYOB very transparent, linear and
> balanced side to side?
The volume pot sounds very good. I balance them manually before I ship.
> Do you recommend using the onboard pot as primary
> volume control for the system, or as a fine tuning 'gain' adjustment with
> primary volume control on external preamp?
Its a volume control.
> Would the amp sound better with
> pot turned up higher to lower resistance in the signal path? Or is this just
> splitting hairs?
It will sound different.
> Is Optima yellow top battery appropriate to use with the DAC and amp? It is
> a deep cycle version.
The yellow top also works. I recommend the red top as there is no need for
deep cycling.
> Thank you Charles! Have a nice weekend!
You too :)
Charles :)
--
ALTMANN MICRO MACHINES
http://www.jitter.de
http://www.altmann.haan.de
http://www.mother-of-tone.com
Dipl.-Ing. Charles Altmann
Am Muehlenbusch 57
42781 Haan
Germany
tel: +49-2129-54260
fax: +49-2129-342555
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Here's some more info from Charles on the shipping/insurance situation. I would like to hear some creative ideas from the gear shipping gurus in our midst.
Thanks
Rich
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Charles Altmann
> Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2007 6:48 AM
> Subject: Re: More BYOB questions
>
>
> Hi Rich,,
>
> some thoughts on your group buy.
>
> 1 Shipping:
>
> I normally ship standard air parcel.
>
> When a larger number of devices are shipped in one parcel, there is a higher
> risk of loss which I cannot cover.
>
> When the parcel is shipped more secure (i.e. Fedex) and is insured for the
> full value, upon US entry you will be charged customs and duty and your 15%
> discount will very easily eat up, which may leave your group-buyers a bit
> disappointed ...
>
> Charles :)
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Altmann
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 7:04 AM
Subject: Re: More BYOB questions
> Thanks Charles. Of course we want to achieve the lowest price possible but
> safety is also important. It is probably best to have you ship each order
> individually by your standard method to avoid customs fees and maximize
> safety. How would that affect your price/discount?
This would reduce your discount to 5% for an order qty 5+ with single
payment.
I think its really not worth the hassle ...
> Would the items still be
> insured against loss if air parcel is used?
To a limited degree, but I'll take the risk.
Charles :)
> Thanks!
> Rich
>
>
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Interesting. He's not shipping batteries, right? So, the little boards only weigh a few ounces each... let's say 8 oz. I could easily construct a box with enough protection to ship 10 of these boards that withstand a shipment around the world. I will gladly build this 'magical shipping box' and send it to Charles if that is what's required.
There's no reason to ship any paperwork, all of it can be emailed and printed locally.
I would ship via FedEx Global Express, whatever is fastest. My guess is the one box for shipping would be in the $100-150 range from Germany to the US. I would get a quote from him.. it shouldn't cost much more than shipping 1 board this way. I think we should split this shipping charge with Charles.
I would mark the package worth $583.16 for customs and call it "Circuit boards for audio equipment".
Yes, I know that they won't be insured for the whole amount but it's a risk I'd be willing to take with FedEx's priority air shipping.... because I don't think the risk is very high.
If all of the above doesn't work, I'd say Charles should drop ship each one. And at that point, it's not really a group buy... It's a matter of buying from Charles.... So, if this is the best option, I'd just say order direct, mention AN and get a 5% discount.
-C
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For a 15% discount I would accelerate my plans to buy an Altmann. 5% just isn't a call to action.
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I have been following this potential group buy since inception and would like to make some comments:
1. What is the advantage of a Group Buy to Charles?
a. Obtains payment (profit) for several units at one time.
b. He sells the units to people who frequent AudioNervosa and other Audio Boards. The 15% discount he provided is cheap advertisement for his products.
c. The 15% discount may result in some of us purchasing the units that would normally pass. Therefore, Charles is not really losing full margin sales (at least not to all of us).
2. What is the advantage to the group?
a. We obtain top notch audiophile quality products at 15% below the normal price.
3. What is the disadvantage of Charles shipping 5 to 10 units to seperate addresses?
a. Maybe I am missing something but he normally packages and ships individually. Shipping a large shipment would be outside of his norm and could add to his time/expenses to ship.
b. I have not gone back to his website but am I wrong in presuming we would pay for shipping?
To me this looks like a potential win/win situation if Charles wants a large order. He takes our order at a 15% discount and ships the orders to each individual in the group. This way Rich or whomever is in charge of the group buy does not have to distribute the units when they arrive from Charles. He would just be responsible for collecting the orders and sending the payment and addresses to Charles.
I apologize if I am off base with this message.
Ken
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No I think you're right about the shiping costs Ken. He was more concerned with shipping a large single package with insurance and duty. I have been too busy to think about it, so thought I would post and run, let some other views be expressed.
The normal individual full price includes shipping. A 15% discount price should be payment for goods/services normally rendered at full price. I will contact him again for clarification.
Thanks
Rich
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I contacted Charles again about the shipping. Since individual purchases include shipping, why not apply 15% discount and ship them individually?
He offers the 15% as a discount in lieu of packaging and shipping each unit individually, which necessitates all in one box, to be redistributed by us. He is not offering 15% discount on the units. They are in demand so why should he?
So if we want it shipped parcel post where no duty is paid, he will not guarantee delivery, risk of loss is ours. That is where the 15% discount is. He is willing to accept the loss of a single unit in post, but not 5+ units.
To fully protect the package from loss it must go FedEx where value is declared (for insurance) and consequent full payment of import duty. Dootie will more than likely will eat up all of the 15% discount gained from shipping the order in one package.
I understand Charles' position and support his decision. He has a hot product which is already fairly priced as evidenced by the strong demand, and 4 week waiting list. I am saddened that ignorance about the dynamics of foreign trade allows tariffs seem like a good idea. In this case and most all others it hurts both the American consumer and the foreign seller.
As far as I'm concerned, the Altmann group buy on AN is now defunct. I will still be purchasing the DAC and maybe the amp too, but I will buy them from him directly.
Thanks for everyone's contributions on this.
Rich
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No, thanks for YOUR work on this, Rich. It's a relief to me because I want to hear Scott Nixon's new DAC for 2 months now. I just hope my memory serves me well enough to compare.
Thanks,
Carl
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Thank you for all the time and effort you put into this Rich, it is greatly appreciated!
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That's a bummer Rich. I was hoping to see a 35 % discount. Nice try though. I am sure I can find a used unit next year when something else is hot. I will just keep myself busy with vinyl until then. :rofl:
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I agree...
Thanks for trying Rich...actually this may be good news for me. I don't need to make any additions, for the time being. Whew...dodged that bullet :roll:!
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Rich:
Thank you very much for trying to negoiate a good deal for us to purchase this DAC. If Charles can sell them at full price I do not fault him for not being interested. Waiting longer for me is not a bad deal as I have a lot of new toys to get familiar with before taking on a DAC. The advantage to waiting is that the Euro may decrease in value versus the dollar making the price more attractive.
Thanks Again,
Ken
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Thanks everyone for your efforts.... :beer:
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Bummer. Thanks for the work though, Rich.
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I wrote to Charles this morning for option prices on the DAC. I intend to buy one anyway, maybe the amp too. Steve, you're not out of the woods yet. You will still have to listen to mine... ! hehe
Woodsyi, I was reading a lot of vinyl propaganda at the beach this week. I'm definitely head that way too. I think there is a lot of performance to be had for reasonable money there. Gonna start looking for a SL1200 in local pawn shops. That should be fun. Might pick up a handgun while I'm at it. hehe
My only issue with vinyl is the availability of program material. I love record stores, and I believe there is a lot of great material available. But you can't always buy the record you want, right now, at least not for $13.00 plus shipping. It is more of picking through what's available and finding good stuff. I want both, lucky finds and latest releases. (Don't we all?)
I do remember the heyday of Blue Note reissues before Lundvall took the label mainstream in 1982. I could buy almost any blue note release brand new pressing with corner cutout as promotional copy, for about $3 each at Looney Tunes records in Boston. The store is still going, but probably not selling Blue note releases for $3!
So a quality DAC like Altmann lets me listen into a CD very deeply, which you can normally only do with records or especially well recorded CDs.
Rich