Author Topic: Mini get together - preamp tube comparison - Sunday October 11  (Read 7249 times)

Offline hometheaterdoc

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Mini get together - preamp tube comparison - Sunday October 11
« on: October 12, 2009, 10:47:39 AM »
Yesterday was an interesting one for me.  I got around to hear 3 different systems as I visited and dropped off stuff, heard some gear, and picked up things that were on loan.

I got to hear Ken's system now that he has a lot of his panels up and all the new additions.  I liked it a LOT more than my last visit now that he's done some treatment and moved the system components to a different layout in the room.  I think he still has a touch more movement needed for the speakers and I think we're going to try some additional things at a little later date to narrow down the last lingering questions.  Overall, it rocks pretty darn good and throws a nice wall of music.  Ken, it's amazing that you've come so far in such a short time!  To think that you didn't have any system at all not so long ago, you're really made some strides.  No turning back now.  You're waaaaay down the rabbit hole now :)

I then got to hear Henry's system again when I stopped by to let him try out some panels, take some photos of his old speakers, and pick up the Oppo that he'd been borrowing.  The panels made an instant change for the better in his room.  I'm still amazed that he's getting such great, balanced sound in his smallish room.  His Wadia is out of the system getting an issue taken care of and Henry has been borrowing some stuff while it's in the shop.  Yesterday was a Cary player on loan.  While it did a lot of things very well, the pacing and timing on it was several beats too slow.  Not enough drive to it.  I caught myself a couple time rocking back and forth saying in my head "Come on now... Come on now" like I was willing it to happen and it would eventually catch up and start going at the right pace.... but it never did....  otherwise, a great visit that was too short.  I missed the Ayre player that was in for a visit a little earlier in the week.  I would have liked to hear how that meshed with his other gear.

Finally, I went over to Carl's last night to drop off some preamp tubes to try in his Belles 21A tube preamp.  I've acquired a ton of 12AU7 variant tubes in the past couple weeks to see how I could transform the Belles VT-01 preamp.  Since it takes a quad of 12AU7s versus just a pair in Carl's 21A, I was curious to hear some of these tubes where I was only able to acquire a good pair, not a quad, and evaluate them.

I didn't bring all the tubes, just the ones that I was curious to hear and the ones that I thought might float Carl's boat.  There was a dozen pairs or so if my memory serves me.  We did the quick, snap judgment thing.  Obviously, the sonics of a tube will change if its given enough time to fully warm up and settle in.  But we wanted to get a quick feel for the flavor of it and didn't spend more than a few minutes with each tube before swapping.  The plan being to narrow it down to a smaller group of tubes that work well for Carl and then do more in depth listening with just those tubes.  The ones that really stood out that Carl liked or wasn't quite sure what they were doing, we played a few more tunes on to get a better feel.  I had already listened to almost all of these in my own setups.  So I had a pretty good idea how they sounded there.  The results in the context of Carl's system were interesting.  We used all of Carl's setup so that it was a true test for how he would like or dislike the tubes if he were to change out from his current Sylvanias.  No special cables or anything added. 

I'm sure Carl will weigh in with his own thoughts.  I left everything with him to do more listening as well.  Some highlights:

Telefunken - not sure of vintage - we both hated these.  Very thin and brittle.  Carl called them "crunchy".  They didn't last long in his 21A.

RCA 5963 black plates - a decent pair found in a group of 8 used tubes sold on ebay.  Based on date codes I think these are from 1958.  These actually are my favorites in my setups.  Carl seemed to like them as well.  They were well balanced, had good detail, bass was clean and not rounded and bloated.  Just a touch syrupy according to Carl.

Mullard 12au7 - not sure of vintage - a supposed matched pair from Andy at Vintage Tube Service on loan to me from Ken. These were the most UN-Mullard like sounding Mullards I've ever heard.  They were in your face and NOT syrupy and overdone midrange at the expense of rounded off top end.  Most surprising tube of the evening.

Radio Technique 12AU7WAH ECC802s - supposed NOS matched pair from a dealer in Europe - I bought a quad and paid a pretty penny for them - another well balanced tube from top to bottom.  A little leaner than the RCAs, but tons of detail without it being thin and in your face.

RCA 5963 long grey plates - not quite as enjoyable as the black plates.  a little more rounded and more syrupy.  Bass a little more boomy.  But same great listenability that I hear from all the RCA tubes I now have here.

Brimar 12AU7 - not sure of vintage.  I touch noisy (hiss) that mostly disappears when listening to music.  Again, another surprising tube in that they were not rich and warm.  They were in your face and shouty.  As bad as the tele's for different reasons.  Not my favorite tube at all.  2 NOS pairs bought at a premium from a dealer because they were supposed to be warm and syrupy and I thought I'd like them.  Not in Carl's system at all.  Edited to add that they *are* much more rounded and syrupy in my own system.  Interesting how different they were in Carl's.  While not my favorite tube in my setup, they were much better than they showed in Carl's setup.

Mullard branded and boxed ECC82 - based on date codes it looks like early 60's vintage - these were MUCH more Mullard like.  I bought this pair from a different international dealer and they weren't as expensive as some I bought.  Good sound.  The richness you expect from a Mullard.  They didn't last long though because Carl didn't like them or they weren't working for him.  I agree that nothing really stood out as outstanding with them. 

Sylvania 5814A - late 70's vintage military - similar sound to Carl's current 70's vintage Sylvania 12AU7 but just more of everything they do.  More open and much better soundstaging.  Voices projected out of the blackness.  I bought two quads of these because of their relatively inexpensive price.  These were awful in my setup, but sounded right at home in Carl's.  Interesting. 

There were more but I'm going from memory and have forgotten at least one or two I think....

Nice way to finish out a Sunday evening.  A short meeting with Carl and I swapping stuff around quickly.  It's nice having a fellow audiophile with a nice system just down the street :)  Impromptu get togethers are so easy to do....




« Last Edit: October 12, 2009, 11:11:56 AM by hometheaterdoc »
Shane Sangster
Used to be Night & Day Audio.......

Offline bpape

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Re: Mini get together - preamp tube comparison - Sunday October 11
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2009, 11:41:17 AM »
When you guys figure out what you want and don't want, let me know.  I have 3 preamps that need 12AU7s.  Not sure I'm going to get my choice as from what I've heard, you liked the same things I did - except that if the Tele's are real ones, they're sweet in my preamp.

Bryan :D
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Offline Carlman

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Re: Mini get together - preamp tube comparison - Sunday October 11
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2009, 11:50:24 AM »
I'm in the midst of crazy work but wanted to give a quick thanks to Shane for bringing over these tubes and doing all the work of swapping them out.  He had a lot more energy than me.  I didn't get much sleep the night before and I had a big presentation today so I was pre-occupied and cranky to boot. ;)

Good thing is, I was in a quick to judge mood.  If something wow'ed me, it really had to wow me.  Out of the dozen or so tubes, only 3 did that... (in relation to what I had).  All 3 address the midbass and make it more real-sounding.. the presentation is prettier and easier to listen into the music. 

Some really separated the instruments and placed everything in a nice space with depth.. others did PRAT really well, etc.. So, I'm going to experiment with the 'winners' and see what I like best.. and probably write it down.  It was very neat hearing the types of differences.. and what my system needs to sound 'right' to my ears.  Very cool, and very encouraging.  Thanks again, Shane.

-Carl
I really enjoy listening to music.

Offline richidoo

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Re: Mini get together - preamp tube comparison - Sunday October 11
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2009, 12:07:15 PM »
I have a pair of cryoed Black Sable RCA cleartops if anyone wants to try them.

Another that you should try is the stock Chinese 12AU7s that come with EE preamps. They were the best of all in my minimax. Clear and powerful, not syrupy. Since they are Chinese, they are probably just Shuguang stock 12AU7 - $8 ea.  Maybe they sound so good in minimax because they are the stock tubes, circuit tweaked for them. Usually my tube preference doesn't match others' so beware.
http://www.tubedepot.com/si-12au7.html

Dangerbird plucked the Shuguangs and got some tasty vintage tubes for his Minimax which he liked better. He wrote about it on AN somewhere.

Thanks for the nice writeup Shane. Sounds like you had a full day of audio fun!

Bigfish8

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Re: Mini get together - preamp tube comparison - Sunday October 11
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2009, 05:42:30 PM »
Quote
I got to hear Ken's system now that he has a lot of his panels up and all the new additions.  I liked it a LOT more than my last visit now that he's done some treatment and moved the system components to a different layout in the room.  I think he still has a touch more movement needed for the speakers and I think we're going to try some additional things at a little later date to narrow down the last lingering questions.  Overall, it rocks pretty darn good and throws a nice wall of music.  Ken, it's amazing that you've come so far in such a short time!  To think that you didn't have any system at all not so long ago, you're really made some strides.  No turning back now.  You're waaaaay down the rabbit hole now Smile

A few more panels on the walls and some on the ceiling (I am afraid Vera will leave me  :duh) and will be running two dedicated 20 AMP lines next weekend!  All that will be left to tackle is the Voodoo Magic of power conditioning! Yuk!  Then it will be on to the never ending world of upgrades! :duh

I just continue to appreciate all the friendships I have made since starting this journey in early 2007.  Without the help of my friends I would have some components but they would not have sounded anything like the system I have today.

Thanks Guys!

Ken


Offline Carlman

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Re: Mini get together - preamp tube comparison - Sunday October 11
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2009, 07:27:43 AM »
OK, I did 24 hours of the RCA's and they still sounded good overall and decided to change to the Sylvania 'heavy duty' as I call them.. and enjoyed that for 24 hours.. But they had a little less 'richness' or 'fullness' that I enjoyed about them at first.  The change would not work well with SC3's because it's right in that range that the SC3's open up. I could see why these would sound much worse with those cables. 
I put the Radio Technique's in there today.. and I really like the magical sound of these so far.. but they all change after a full day of playing.. If these stay as pretty as they are, I'll be very pleased.

I played around with speaker positioning again today.. (fractions of inches) it's just getting better and better... more full-bodied and 'real' sounding every day.  On some live music it almost has the presence of paper drivers... :)

-C
I really enjoy listening to music.

lonewolfny42

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Re: Mini get together - preamp tube comparison - Sunday October 11
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2009, 07:44:44 AM »
Carl....

Quote
I put the Radio Technique's in there today.. and I really like the magical sound of these so far..

Bonjour....

"Made in France. This is the French arm of Philips Holland who also owned Amperex and Mullard. So it makes sense these (in this vintage...be careful of one slightly earlier with a smaller plate...they are not as quiet as these) have a plate structure similar to Amperex Bugle Boys and the Mullard ECC82."

Offline Carlman

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Re: Mini get together - preamp tube comparison - Sunday October 11
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2009, 08:00:17 AM »
That's interesting, they have a touch of Bugle-boy liveliness but with a buttery smoothness that keeps them from biting too much.. it's a good balance.. I'm really enjoying hearing the KBCO sessions on these tubes.. :)

Thanks for the extra insight!

-C

P.S. Must be raining in NY as well. ;)
I really enjoy listening to music.

lonewolfny42

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Re: Mini get together - preamp tube comparison - Sunday October 11
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2009, 08:18:15 AM »
Quote
P.S. Must be raining in NY as well.

Yep..... :?