Author Topic: Phonostages: To Tube or Not to Tube That is the Question  (Read 8760 times)

Offline rollo

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Phonostages: To Tube or Not to Tube That is the Question
« on: October 12, 2011, 11:39:18 AM »
  Are there any advantages or disadvantages of using either ?
What is your preference and why ??

charles
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Offline BobM

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Re: Phonostages: To Tube or Not to Tube That is the Question
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2011, 12:09:51 PM »
SSS usually gets you enough gain in one package to run LOMC's without a step-up device. They produce a clean sound with lots of detail for the most part. But they generally lack the "love" that a tubes stage brings to the table.

Tubed units won't usually have enough gain for a LOMC, or if they do there's a lot of tube rush along with it. So you need a step up wich adds another interconnect and another device to possibly compromize the sound. Plus any transformer based step-up needs to be matched with the cartridge. so they can be a pain, but they bring that tube bloom and presence to the table that SS units strive for but mostly just can't duplicate.

At least in my experience.
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Offline allenzachary

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Re: Phonostages: To Tube or Not to Tube That is the Question
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2011, 01:32:55 PM »
What Bob said.

Much of it depends on the phono cartridge you currently use, how much you like it and its synergy with the tonearm/table you have.  If you have nothing, look at a tube phono stage and one of the High Output Moving Coil cartridges on the market.  If you have an existing table and cartridge that makes your heart go pitter-pat, try to find an appropriate match in a phone stage.

So...what is your current vinyl playback situation, and how do you feel about it?

Offline JBryan

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Re: Phonostages: To Tube or Not to Tube That is the Question
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2011, 06:24:03 AM »
In a head-to-head shootout, the best tube phonostage will have a slight advantage over the best SS phonostage, IMO. A well-designed and implemented tube stage offers all the detail and clarity but doesn't come across as analytical as its SS comrade. The tube stage also has a warmth and intimacy that SS just can't match. Of course, I'm biased toward tubes and there are downsides. A good tube phonostage or pre will cost considerably more than a comparable SS design and there are cheaper SS stages and pres that will do a fairly good job while less expensive ones with tubes have compromises - they tend to be noisier and lack bass control.

If you're looking for a phonostage or pre that handles MC carts, it gets a bit more complicated in that with tubes, you'll need either a step-up or FETs. Step-ups are preferable but good ones are expensive and all need to be carefully matched to your phonostage and cartridge - anything less than ideal results in noise and roll-off. FETs are easier to implement and use and tend to be cheaper but will omit some of the warmth and intimacy that folks want from tubes.

I've had quite a few p-stages and pres in my system and my preference is for pres with the 417a/5842 based Loesch circuit. Although they aren't cheap and certainly have detractors, they are quite flexible (settings, gain) and have a purity and intimacy that I haven't heard from the other phono pres. Of course, your system and requirements may be quite different from mine so take it with a big grain of salt.

Offline rollo

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Re: Phonostages: To Tube or Not to Tube That is the Question
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2011, 12:12:05 PM »
  I own a Loesch & Weisner phono/pre. :D Loved it with a Linn LP12 and Micro Benz. M2 wood body[ .8mv] which just died.  :( When I use the Linn Arkiv [ .15mv] It ain't happening. Installed a Lenco step-up but the sound degraded even with the perfect impedance setting.
    When my buddy brought over his Miracle audio phonostage  :drool:[ SS] with plenty of gain the Linn never sounded better.
   I just recently bought a Goldnote Boboli HOMC [ 2.0mv] to try with the Loesch.
   When I get the Boboli installed I will compare the Melody with the Loesch.
    The purpose of the subject is general in nature. Different experiences from the Nervosians helps all. So keep the comments coming. my sysyem is so rich that i was thinking about a more accurate phono section. jury is still out.


charles
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Offline Triode Pete

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Re: Phonostages: To Tube or Not to Tube That is the Question
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2011, 01:51:21 PM »
I've had quite a few p-stages and pres in my system and my preference is for pres with the 417a/5842 based Loesch circuit. Although they aren't cheap and certainly have detractors, they are quite flexible (settings, gain) and have a purity and intimacy that I haven't heard from the other phono pres. Of course, your system and requirements may be quite different from mine so take it with a big grain of salt.

I really like Arthur's (Loesch) circuit as well for phono preamp applications. It's considered one of the finest sounding around and at least in my preamp, the 3rd gain stage can be substituted with several high quality tube types; the 6DJ8 variety (John Wiesner's favorite in this circuit (who's hand-built numerous of these w/ point to point wiring)), the 5687 variants (Arthur Loesch's favorite) or 7119 types...

I've heard it in a variety of systems including Charlie (rollo), xaudiomanx's, John W's & Art's, and it appears to synergize great with all systems. Averaging ~ 52 - 62 dB of gain (based on configuration), it'll mate well with average output MC's to MM's...

BTW, IMO, the 1st two stages sound best with Western Electric 417A's & RCA 6GK5's...

Getting ready right now to change out cartridges from my Grado Sonata to a new Clearaudio Maestro Wood body...

Pete

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Offline topround

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Re: Phonostages: To Tube or Not to Tube That is the Question
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2011, 04:22:23 PM »
Good choice Pete on the cart :thumb:
System consists of an amp a preamp, 2 speakers a turntable and a phono preamp, Also some cables and power cords and a really cheap cd player.

Offline etcarroll

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Re: Phonostages: To Tube or Not to Tube That is the Question
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2011, 05:07:11 PM »
really like my EAR 834p with a trio of smoothplate Teles.

Using a Shelter 501 MkII and DV 20x2-L, can't decide which I prefer. Would like to find a cart. that combines the 'liveliness' of the Shelter up top with the DV warmth down low.

There's a few modifications for the 834P on the net, I'd like to try a few, plus replace the LOMC transformers with Stevens & Billington TX103 transformers, in a seperate box. Then Cardas RCAs, a few new caps from the grouping of SCR/Angela/Mundorf/Audyn Tinfoil & Polypropylene Caps, and...

Hey wait a minute, didn't I buy this used to save money?
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Offline topround

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Re: Phonostages: To Tube or Not to Tube That is the Question
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2011, 07:55:02 PM »
you might want to try the Cinemags stepups, very good for the  money, and they also have a no holds barred version as well which I have not heard but would love too.

The 834 is on my short list, just to mod and see how far it can go, and if the mods are worth it
System consists of an amp a preamp, 2 speakers a turntable and a phono preamp, Also some cables and power cords and a really cheap cd player.

Offline Triode Pete

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Re: Phonostages: To Tube or Not to Tube That is the Question
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2011, 09:16:38 PM »
Using a Shelter 501 MkII and DV 20x2-L, can't decide which I prefer. Would like to find a cart. that combines the 'liveliness' of the Shelter up top with the DV warmth down low.

Hey wait a minute, didn't I buy this used to save money?

Tried both the Shelter 501 MkII and DV 20x2-H in the past; just set-up my Clearaudio Maestro cartridge on my Well Tempered Reference TT... 1 album played & it's very impressive  :thumb: :thumb:... the Shelter & DV placed 2nd by a substantial margin  :duh... of course, YMWV... very good synergy on my system...

Pete
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Offline rollo

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Re: Phonostages: To Tube or Not to Tube That is the Question
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2011, 07:31:05 AM »
  Pete the Clearaudio should add some richness without being dull. A fine match for your system IMO.
  ENJOY!!!!


charles
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Offline Triode Pete

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Re: Phonostages: To Tube or Not to Tube That is the Question
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2011, 08:33:29 AM »
  Pete the Clearaudio should add some richness without being dull. A fine match for your system IMO.
  ENJOY!!!!


charles
SMA
One word - WOW! On my 3rd LP, it's everything my Grado Reference Sonata was but much more extension (both ends), imaging, soundstaging, better cohesiveness from my horns, all improved, horns really sound real. In an adjoining room while listening, it seems "real", like you're in a club...

Also, what a great tracker & also very, very quiet... I thought my phono stage was pretty quiet... now it's dead silent... I must of had some slight hum attributed to the Grado...

I am told it will take 50 hrs to break-in this new cartridge... can't wait to hear what'll it sound like then...

Anyone want to come over next Saturday for a listen?

Pete
www.TriodeWireLabs.com
WT Reference/Lyra Titan I
Quadratic Audio MC-1
Custom BorderPatrol preamp with phono & line stage
Innuos Statement Server
BorderPatrol S20 EXD w/EXS PS
Klipschorns - Volti hot-rodded
UberBUSS

evan1

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Re: Phonostages: To Tube or Not to Tube That is the Question
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2011, 09:20:14 AM »
  Pete the Clearaudio should add some richness without being dull. A fine match for your system IMO.
  ENJOY!!!!


charles
SMA
One word - WOW! On my 3rd LP, it's everything my Grado Reference Sonata was but much more extension (both ends), imaging, soundstaging, better cohesiveness from my horns, all improved, horns really sound real. In an adjoining room while listening, it seems "real", like you're in a club...

Also, what a great tracker & also very, very quiet... I thought my phono stage was pretty quiet... now it's dead silent... I must of had some slight hum attributed to the Grado...

I am told it will take 50 hrs to break-in this new cartridge... can't wait to hear what'll it sound like then...

Anyone want to come over next Saturday for a listen?

Pete

Maybe I can make it

Offline BobM

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Re: Phonostages: To Tube or Not to Tube That is the Question
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2011, 06:51:56 AM »
you might want to try the Cinemags stepups, very good for the  money, and they also have a no holds barred version as well which I have not heard but would love too.

Another very good step-up is the Hagerman Piccolo

http://www.hagtech.com/piccolo.html

It is inexpensive to purchase and can also be a very fun project to put together yourself, even for a beginner. I've heard this compared against some very nice transformer based stap ups and it doesn't give anything up to them. Quiet and dynamic (with a few minor tweaks) and it has adjustability for loading and gain that a transformer based step up might not have.
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Offline BobM

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Re: Phonostages: To Tube or Not to Tube That is the Question
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2011, 02:21:07 PM »
Here's a link to some discussions on modifying the Piccolo. Pretty basic stuff, really only simple parts substitutions and an extra cap to help speed up the power pull from the battery pack. Generally speaking, accessing power from a battery is slower than the speed a cap can supply, so this mod results in better PRAT.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=76688.0http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=79234.0
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