Author Topic: Fozgometer - Wow!  (Read 30774 times)

Offline rollo

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Re: Fozgometer - Wow!
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2011, 07:49:27 AM »
    I'm sold. Was having some fun with you guys. Even the Linn has some wiggle room for final adjustment. When I installed the Arkiv it sounded like crap. When I had it adjusted it was night and day. Gotta love Dave at Accent on Music in Mt Kisco.
   I am considering a new TT. A Kuzma with the 4 point arm.  However until I install the Boboli HOMC and compare it to the Arkiv the jury is still out. The Boboli has an output of 2mv a perfect match for the Loesch. To date I have yet to use the Loesch with a higher output cart.  :duh Waiting for some Ortofon 7N Cart leads to arrive from the Needle doctor. 
  When I do the Fozgometer will be used to great affect.

charles
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« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 11:28:21 AM by rollo »
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Offline topround

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Re: Fozgometer - Wow!
« Reply #31 on: October 28, 2011, 11:44:19 AM »
Kuzma with a 4 point.............don't even bother with anything else.it will be great, who makes Linn carts?(AT)?

Charlie the 4 point is a music making machine
System consists of an amp a preamp, 2 speakers a turntable and a phono preamp, Also some cables and power cords and a really cheap cd player.

Offline BobM

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Re: Fozgometer - Wow!
« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2011, 01:25:33 PM »
but first ...

... a little bit o luck

Laugh and the world laughs with you. Cry and you'll have to blow your nose.

Offline tmazz

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Re: Fozgometer - Wow!
« Reply #33 on: October 28, 2011, 09:39:52 PM »

Let me clarify....

With azimuth we are trying to achieve perfect verticality of the stylus in the groove when viewed head-on.  I don't know how anyone would use the cart body to achieve this, as you suggest.  I think you are referring to the practise of using the cart body when adjusting the null points.  This is an erroneous approach.  One should view the cantilever (not cart body) and align it with protractor lines.  Reason?  Because the cantilever is often not perfect in the cart body, therefore the cart body is not a good proxy when setting null points.


I agree that it is not right, but I have seen numerous written instructions for Cart alignment that suggest putting a small mirror on the platter and then lowering the cart onto it and twisting the azimuth until the reflection of the body in the mirror makes a straight line with the body itself. It is a very common practice with lower end TT. I don't agree with it, but I didn't pull the idea out of thin air.
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shep

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Re: Fozgometer - Wow!
« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2011, 12:07:04 AM »
"I agree that it is not right, but I have seen numerous written instructions for Cart alignment that suggest putting a small mirror on the platter and then lowering the cart onto it and twisting the azimuth until the reflection of the body in the mirror makes a straight line with the body itself. It is a very common practice with lower end TT. I don't agree with it, but I didn't pull the idea out of thin air."

Now this is a blast from the past. The bloody mirror (or a record with a big blank space) and using a magnifying glass to try and get the diamond exactly in line with it's reflection without doing damage. Well it was better than nothing until I got a Souther linear tracker that had all sorts of neat adjustments. To deal with this issue they had a long fine metal rod that just lay on top of the cart. This gave a much better base-line, but no matter what you did there was no way to know if the azymuth was actually correct except eye-balling...with the mirror. I think I would have given anything for the Fozmeter. I probably never heard any cart. properly set and heaven knows I tried.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2011, 12:09:01 AM by shep »

jsaliga

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Re: Fozgometer - Wow!
« Reply #35 on: October 29, 2011, 02:48:01 AM »

...I have seen numerous written instructions for Cart alignment that suggest putting a small mirror on the platter and then lowering the cart onto it and twisting the azimuth until the reflection of the body in the mirror makes a straight line with the body itself. It is a very common practice with lower end TT. I don't agree with it, but I didn't pull the idea out of thin air.

I have always found that guidance to be more than sufficient.  This is almost a verbatim quote of the instructions that came with my Ortofon Jubilee and Benz Wood M2 cartridges.

I don't see anything wrong with someone wanting to make sure that their cartridge is dialed in as perfectly as possible.  And if the Fozgometer helps them with that then I am all for it.  But I have to admit that I am of the close-is-good-enough mindset when it comes to azimuth alignment (hell, when it comes to most things in home audio).  

As I have read through this thread with interest part of me was thinking that if some enterprising audio company were to come up with a gizmo that you could connect to your system and it would tell you weather or not it sounded good...such a device would find a sizable and welcoming audience among audiophiles.  

I am perfectly content to set my cartridge up using the tools that came with my tonearm (I think SME does a pretty good job on its alignment and VTA aids) and the instructions that was supplied with my cartridge.  I trust my ears to inform my judgment regarding the accuracy of my work.  If it sounds great and I can loose myself in the music to the point where my system and the room vanish, and all that is left is me and the music...well that is all that I think I can hope for with my vinyl rig.  I am already there folks.  For those who want and demand more, I sincerely hope you find it.

--Jerome
« Last Edit: October 29, 2011, 03:45:39 AM by jsaliga »

evan1

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Re: Fozgometer - Wow!
« Reply #36 on: October 29, 2011, 04:39:50 AM »

Wow, getting goosebumps right now from setting the azimuth correctly! Looking at the cartridge, you'd never think it was set-up correctly but it is... imaging, channel separation, PRAT is great... :thumb:

Thanks, John!

Pete

Hiya Pete.....

Your rig was singing beautifully when I left on Sat.  I enjoyed it very much!

Never underestimate the value of a good Fozgo session!  :rofl:    :thumb:

I have now Fozgoed 6, maybe 8, cartridges.  Every single one needed to be twisted one way or another.  In other words, a neutral tonearm was incorrect for azimuth.  This means that most carts are not built properly - even new ones -- and will therefore not give full potential unless properly adjusted for azimuth.

After this experience, and hearing the profound effect of properly dialed azimuth on SQ, I would NEVER own an arm where azimuth adjustment is not possible.

John


John if you ever make it to Staten Island with Chris I wouldn't mind trying this out

Offline topround

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Re: Fozgometer - Wow!
« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2011, 05:28:39 AM »
Jerome, I think we are all happy until we hear something better.
I thought my cartridge sounded fine until it was Fozgo'd, and it only got better.
Part of it is that we really don't know if our carts are performing at their optimum, our eyes can't tell and our ears are not that good to determine absolute correct geometry even though some of us think we can.

Also if you spent several thousand dollars on a cartridge , the least you would want is it to be performing at its best.
The Fozgometer makes easy work of one of the most difficult things in analogue to nail down.

Nothing wrong with that....time marches on and so does the technology....thank God
System consists of an amp a preamp, 2 speakers a turntable and a phono preamp, Also some cables and power cords and a really cheap cd player.

jsaliga

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Re: Fozgometer - Wow!
« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2011, 05:41:09 AM »
Also if you spent several thousand dollars on a cartridge , the least you would want is it to be performing at its best.

You seem to be implying that someone who spent less than several thousand dollars on their cartridge is less demanding or has lower standards.  I have enough invested (more than $1) in my vinyl rig that having it perform at its best is important to me.  Let's not make this about money.

I wasn't critical of anyone who thinks the Fozgometer is a useful tool.  But I don't agree that one is necessary to get a cartridge aligned well enough so it produces great sound.  I don't loose any sleep over the thought that others might have spent way more money than I have on my set up or that they may even be enjoying better sound.  I spend within my means and enjoy what I have.  Keeping up with the Jones' is not the reason I am in this game.  I do what pleases me and don't much care whether or not someone else approves of it.

--Jerome
« Last Edit: October 29, 2011, 05:53:42 AM by jsaliga »

Offline tmazz

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Re: Fozgometer - Wow!
« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2011, 06:14:46 AM »
I am perfectly content to set my cartridge up using the tools that came with my tonearm (I think SME does a pretty good job on its alignment and VTA aids) and the instructions that was supplied with my cartridge.  

I disagree, SME provides a great set of setup tools and instructions with their arms. They are simple to use and have gotten  my initial rough setups be closer to optimal than anything else I have ever used. (Unfortunately, they are arm specific and cannot help anyone else, but they have done real good by me.)

I also know where you are coming from with the close enough concept. Especially with the arm specific SME tools I am confident that I can a damn good setup without and exorbitant amount of effort. Case in point, when I recently upgraded from the Mk II to the Mk IV platter on my HW-19 I just used the SME tools and eyeballed it. With just that the sound was greatly improved over the previous setup and I have been just sitting back and enjoying it for about two months now. Now I know it could get better if I invested the time and fine tuned it, but it is really enjoyable right now and life as of late has been rather hectic, so I have decided that with the limited time I have had to spent in the mancave I would rather be listing to the system that futzing with it. Someday, when things calm down I will pull out the tools and invest the time in maxing out the alignment, but right now the music just seems like a better use of my time.  Perhaps it is also my way of keeping the Nervosa Barbaian outside the gate in that next time I get the itch to upgrade, rather than plunking down cash for new hardware I can feed the jones by doing the alignment tweaking instead   :roll:
Remember, it's all about the music........

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jsaliga

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Re: Fozgometer - Wow!
« Reply #40 on: October 29, 2011, 06:58:37 AM »
Tom, I think we all have things in audio that we are sensitive to.  Admittedly, gear and tweaks just are not big priorities for me.  It doesn't mean I am not interested...but I have other pressure points in my pursuit of audio satisfaction.

My big issue is the quality of the source recording, mastering, and subsequent pressing to vinyl.  I am extremely sensitive to physical pressing defects and damage to records, which is why you won't see me playing too many LPs that grade below NM.  I won't buy any record that grades below VG+, no matter how desirable.

Sometimes I feel that in this hobby ignorance is bliss.  Last year I upgraded my loudspeakers from Omega Max Hemps to Audiokinesis Planetarium Alphas.  I made the change to deal with a minor problem I was having with occasional sibilance with the Max Hemps.  The Audiokinesis speakers solved that issue and I also discovered that they produced more realistic highs.  Cymbal crashes and Hi-Hats sounded particularly real and lifelike.  But the funny thing is that I never felt this was a weakness of the Max Hemps.  It was a pleasant surprise with the new speakers but that does not diminish the years of enjoyment I obtained from the Omegas.  This ties into what Mike said earlier about being happy until hearing something better.  I see his point...but fortunately for me I don't get out too often to hear other setups so Jonesing just isn't much of a temptation for me.

--Jerome 

Offline tmazz

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Re: Fozgometer - Wow!
« Reply #41 on: October 29, 2011, 07:25:50 AM »
Also if you spent several thousand dollars on a cartridge , the least you would want is it to be performing at its best.

You seem to be implying that someone who spent less than several thousand dollars on their cartridge is less demanding or has lower standards.  I have enough invested (more than $1) in my vinyl rig that having it perform at its best is important to me.  Let's not make this about money.

I wasn't critical of anyone who thinks the Fozgometer is a useful tool.  But I don't agree that one is necessary to get a cartridge aligned well enough so it produces great sound.  I don't loose any sleep over the thought that others might have spent way more money than I have on my set up or that they may even be enjoying better sound.  I spend within my means and enjoy what I have.  Keeping up with the Jones' is not the reason I am in this game.  I do what pleases me and don't much care whether or not someone else approves of it.

--Jerome

I don't think that Mike was trying to make this about money or be critical of what people did or did not spend on equipment but rather was just using a large purchase price as an indication that the person must have been very serious about the sound. and he feels that if they are serious enough to spend big bucks then they should be serious enough to want to wring the most out of that investment.

I am going to tread lightly here because this can get to be a very touch subject around here and I don't want to upset anyone or get into another "class warfare" debate, but let me make this quick comment on that idea:

This is a hobby that usually ends up requiring a good amount of cash to do well. And the people who get involved generally fall into two categories those that are well off financially and can lay out large sums of cash without thinking about it too much and those for whom  participating in this hobby puts a significant drain on their disposable income and therefore want to writing every last once of performance out of every dollar the spend. (and of course not every body fits exactly or exclusively in one of these boxes, it is just a general observation. And at no time during this discussion am I trying to imply that one type is in any way better than the other.)

But the fact of the matter is that most people who make a lot of money do so at a cost....time. This leads the two groups to  to view the hobby at times from very different perspectives.

To the average working Joe who loves music and makes a decent living at a 40-50 hour a week job the critical resource in putting together a high end system is cash. This is and expensive hobby and often strains the budgets of those involved in it. But what this guy does have extra of this time, so he uses that time carefully research his purchases and to tweak and modify his system such that he gets the absolute most sound he can out of every dollar he spends

On the  hand, to the corporate executive or law firm partner, who has plenty of money to spend, but regularly spends 80+ hours a week in the office or on the road (you don't think they just give you those big salaries for nothing, do you?) the critical resource is very often time. They have very little time to listen to the system and would much rather just throw money at it so they can spend what little time they have listening t the system rather than working on it.

To the working guy spending several hours optimizing a $1K cartridge to get it to sound like a $2K cartridge is a great deal and meets their needs for the system. While in the case of the time constrained rich guy, he might be much more happy with a roughly set up $4K cart that sounded like a $2k cartridge because if he spent the time tweaking the Cart to optimize its potential he would have no time left to listen to it. Both guys got the sound of a nice $2k cart and both are very comfortable with the path he took to get there.

As my brother-in-law used to say to me whenever we started a project,"all it's going to take is time and money, how much of each are you willing to dedicate to the project and that will determine the path that we take to accomplish it."  I am going through a very similar decision path right now at home. Now that my wife has passed I am faced with the prospect of repairing all of the sheetrock holes and ripped up molding caused by her trying to navigate her power wheelchair through a house that was never designed as handicapped accessible.
Now this is nothing that I really couldn't handle myself, but given all the other demands on my time a project that would take a professional 2 or three days to complete would drag out form month with me working an hour or two at a time. So I have to make a choice of whether to pay someone I  to do something I am perfectly capable of doing myself and forgo other potential uses of that money or to use that money for something else (like a system upgrade) and give up a good chunk of my free time.  (BTW, if anyone reading this is an un or underemployed carpenter in the Long Island area, shoot me a PM, we need to talk.)

Bottom line here is that there is no right or wrong hear at time vs money decision is a very personal one and just depends on what works for you at the moment (and yes these things do change over time. There are plenty of things that I would not have thought twice about doing three years ago and will probably not think twice about in another three years but just do not have the strength or ambition to tackle right now.)

Wow, who said this was going to be a quick comment?  :roll:
Remember, it's all about the music........

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Offline toobluvr

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Re: Fozgometer - Wow!
« Reply #42 on: October 29, 2011, 12:07:29 PM »


I wasn't critical of anyone who thinks the Fozgometer is a useful tool.  But I don't agree that one is necessary to get a cartridge aligned well enough so it produces great sound.  

--Jerome

True, if your azimuth is not way outta whack. The improvement is a matter of degree, and is a function of how outta whack your starting position is.

I have experienced it, several times.  I fozgoed one guy whose cartridge needed about a 40 degree clockwise rotation!  Did it sound good pre-fozgo?  Sure it did, and he was enjoying his vinyl playback.  But oh my, the power and glory post fozgo!  It was not subtle.  Things just locked into place and the pesentation got very focused, solid, coherent, dimensional and natural.  Just more "right".

I am neither an obsessive tweakaholic nor snake oil obsessed.  I don't even use cones or footers of any sort, no shaktis, no thing-a-ma-jigs, no thing-a-ma-bobs, just a very solid maple butcher block rack.  But having experienced it's effect firsthand many times, I can attest to the power of the Fozgo.  So much so that, as I said earlier, I would never own an arm that does not do azimuth adjustments.

Sure, you can get good sound w/o Fozgo.  But you are almost guaranteed to get noticeably better sound with it.  And I don't consider it tweaky or fiddly or obsessive.  I consider it critical.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I think it's better to develop that opinion with actual experience before voicing it so strongly.

John

« Last Edit: October 29, 2011, 12:10:05 PM by toobluvr »
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jsaliga

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Re: Fozgometer - Wow!
« Reply #43 on: October 29, 2011, 02:09:36 PM »
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I think it's better to develop that opinion with actual experience before voicing it so strongly

You are free to disagree with me but I stand by my opinion.  I'm sorry that you seem bothered by how I expressed my views but that doesn't change anything.  If you want to argue that I am not qualified to express an opinion about azimuth alignment and how to achieve it because I haven't tried a Fozgometer, then I don't see how that is relevant.  I have installed and dialed in several tonearms and cartridges over the years, and I think that experience more than qualifies me to discuss alignment.  I use different tools and methods than you do, that's it.  You can argue that you use better tools than I do, and I am in no position to argue otherwise.  But you aren't in my room listening to my setup, and you are in no position to comment on how well or poorly I have adjusted my alignment.

I never said that people who buy a Fozgometer are wasting their money.  I might be compelled to give one a try if I was having alignment related sound problems that I could not otherwise resolve.  Or if I had a tonearm that was particularly troublesome to dial in.  I don't have experience with a lot of different tonearms, only having installed and set up a number of different SME, Rega, and Jelco arms.  I understand that there are some uni-pivot and dual pivot arms that are quite touchy to get properly adjusted.

I'm delighted that the Fozgometer works for you and that it improved your sound.  No fair-minded person would be rooting for someone else's failure.

--Jerome

jsaliga

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Re: Fozgometer - Wow!
« Reply #44 on: October 29, 2011, 02:35:05 PM »
Wow, who said this was going to be a quick comment?  :roll:

Tom, I appreciate your level-headed perspective.

My only concern when the subject of cost and how much money people spend comes uip is when that is used as the principal basis for judging another's commitment to great sound.  I don't think that is what was happening here.

We all have varying priorities.  And while we all might share the same goal of enjoying the best possible sound we most assuredly are not in unanimous agreement on how to get there.

For instance, some have said that they do not feel that $50 for a 45RPM 180g audiophile LP is worth the money.  I invest huge in these records and have spent more money on them then most people here have spent on their entire analog set up.  But it would be wrong for me to judge those folks as not being as committed to getting the best possible sound as I am simply because they don't share my values and priorities.  They absolutely are just as devoted as I am, they have merely chosen a different path that best suits their own values.

A few weeks ago I was reading a review of the Origin Live Calypso turntable in The Absolute Sound, by reviewer Jimmy Hughes.  He writes...

"Sound quality is a relative (rather than an absolute) thing. It’s all about having your expectations fulfilled, rather than achieving an arbitrary standard."

His comment sums up perfectly my thoughts on the subject.

With that I think I will gracefully bow out of this thread.  I feel that my comments have been something of a distraction and it was not my intent to run the thread off topic.  For that I do apologize.

--Jerome
« Last Edit: October 29, 2011, 02:42:08 PM by jsaliga »