AudioNervosa
Group Therapy => NY Audio Rave => Topic started by: mfsoa on October 10, 2009, 07:05:09 PM
-
I understand we're allowed (encouraged even?) to say stuff like this on AN, so I have a little observation-
Reading the comments RE RMAF over on AC, one gets the impression that every mfgr w/ an AC presence had the best sound at the show and that no other maker of audio goodies understands what good sound is.
Yet I just read through a 65+ long thread on AGon about the best/worst sounds at the show, and jeez there was barely a mention of any of the stuff that is consistently being hailed as the second coming on AC. I did see mention of Omega and the good value at the Grant room, but little or nothing more than that.
I guess this stuck out due to what I see as the cults of personalities that surround (and are fostered by) many of the mfgr circles on AC. If you disagree with them it's like you called their baby ugly. Great press for the mfgrs, but hardly the way to have honest discourse about this hobby.
I know that many posters were merely providing info about the mfgrs that most people on AC are familiar with - I guess that's only natural.
But to read the comments on AC vs. AGon makes it seem like there were two RMAF going on - One for AC mfgrs and then the rest.
No big deal and I do over-generalize. Just wanted to say, for apparently no good reason :lol:
-Mike
-
Hah..."believe none of what you hear, and half of what you see..." I think that applies very much to a fair amount of the "raves" over at AC (or possibly any other audio forum).
Its not uncommon to see(read) people recommending gear they have never seen much less heard, based sorely on what they have "read"(other people's opinion).
Audio quality assessment is such a subjective and personal thing, the best remedy is to hear for oneself.
I think the OP of "what he learned at RMAF" was 90% spot on (and I was not even there :rofl: )
But based on my experience of other shows and NYAR I felt many of his points were on the money.
-
Mike,
Thank you for posting this.
This has always been a problem with me and AC , the damn fan boy mentality that is taking over there.
I started tweaking a few guys in the Salk circle and got blasted by them and reprimanded by John R.
I am sick of it, it has become irrelevant over there, and any serious discourse is shunned.
Again thanks for speaking what you feel...and that is the truth.
I am sure we will get more and more disgruntled Acer's to visit here, and eventually Nervosa will become what AC once was.!
Mike
-
I understand we're allowed (encouraged even?) to say stuff like this on AN, so I have a little observation-
Mike, your post is thoughtful, intelligent and respectful, while making a critical observation. That is allowed at AN. Personal insults, or things that make others uncomfortable is not. Thanks for asking.
-
While I can see the idea of not allowing people to crap in a vendors sandbox it unfortunately leads to exactly what is being discussed here. Personally I just don't post in almost any of the AC vendor areas, it's not worth the BS involved. Almost certainly the feedback is 100% positive and any real issues are likely to be binned.
As a general thought on posts regarding how something sounds, no matter where, show/friends/dealer/home I tend to take nearly all of them with a large does of skepticism. At RMAF 2008 I helped a buddy and manned one of the rooms. It had the large Analysis Audio speakers, a pair of Specton amps in mono, a ModWright pre and my tubed squeezbox as a source. We were using some of the Kaplan Cable power cords, Synergistic Research IC's and some horrifyingly expensive speaker cables though I can't remember the brand at the moment and we had a fair amount of room treatments.
Though I knew that folks perceive things differently, sitting in that room for three days and observing/discussing/listening to peoples thoughts really drove home how different we hear. I had one guy sit for 20 seconds and leave saying "not working for me" to a guy who must have spent 2-3 hours in there over the course of the weekend saying how wonderful everything was. And of course pretty much everything in between. Some loved the sound, some hated it. The end result for me was I treat much of what is written about something as rubbish unless I have learned that the writer's observations tend to align with mine, base upon other things they have written about and that I've heard.
And there is my 0.12 worth. :)
mike
-
Anyone know what manufactures are paying to have a circle over at AC?
-
Anyone know what manufactures are paying to have a circle over at AC?
Emil:
Most of the manufacturers that pay have their on site at AC.
Ken
-
While I can see the idea of not allowing people to crap in a vendors sandbox it unfortunately leads to exactly what is being discussed here. Personally I just don't post in almost any of the AC vendor areas, it's not worth the BS involved. Almost certainly the feedback is 100% positive and any real issues are likely to be binned.
As a general thought on posts regarding how something sounds, no matter where, show/friends/dealer/home I tend to take nearly all of them with a large does of skepticism. At RMAF 2008 I helped a buddy and manned one of the rooms. It had the large Analysis Audio speakers, a pair of Specton amps in mono, a ModWright pre and my tubed squeezbox as a source. We were using some of the Kaplan Cable power cords, Synergistic Research IC's and some horrifyingly expensive speaker cables though I can't remember the brand at the moment and we had a fair amount of room treatments.
Though I knew that folks perceive things differently, sitting in that room for three days and observing/discussing/listening to peoples thoughts really drove home how different we hear. I had one guy sit for 20 seconds and leave saying "not working for me" to a guy who must have spent 2-3 hours in there over the course of the weekend saying how wonderful everything was. And of course pretty much everything in between. Some loved the sound, some hated it. The end result for me was I treat much of what is written about something as rubbish unless I have learned that the writer's observations tend to align with mine, base upon other things they have written about and that I've heard.
And there is my 0.12 worth. :)
mike
What he said. +1
That's why I miss Audio Central. That was the place you could challenge the blind followers or get a less unbiased viewpoint.
George
-
Actually, one of the best sounds at RMAF 09' was the sound of Mike Galusha's mancave with Gedde's Abbeys powered by his Mac 275.
I spent time in a room with $37k monster speakers, Fertin fieid coil drivers complemented by beryllium mids/tweets. Just horrible; a VOT sound done bad. I sat there thinking that if that was the sound they were seeking, big, tonal and dynamic, they'd be far better served by Mike's Abbeys. And how did they seek to improve the sound of their room, by adjusting the VTA....
You just cant make this stuff up.
-Paul
-
Actually, one of the best sounds at RMAF 09' was the sound of Mike Galusha's mancave with Gedde's Abbeys powered by his Mac 275.
I agree completely. Mike's system sounded awesome. Sort of knowing the sound of the SP speakers, I was expecting a similar sound with the Gedde's waveguide. Boy was that assumption wrong :duh
-
Actually, one of the best sounds at RMAF 09' was the sound of Mike Galusha's mancave with Gedde's Abbeys powered by his Mac 275.
I agree completely. Mike's system sounded awesome. Sort of knowing the sound of the SP speakers, I was expecting a similar sound with the Gedde's waveguide. Boy was that assumption wrong :duh
I agree they are surprisingly different which I wasn't expecting at all, but both are tremendous speakers. Wish I could have made to to Mike's this time to hear what mine are capable of as mine aren't quite there yet. I had a great session with the new NYAR 2009 disc last night though. Big thanks to Chris and the NY ravers, great selections!
-
Many of the AC manufacturers rooms did sound good....but they still don't get the coverage that the "Big" boys get....not until they make big waves.
The "name brands" still hold forth....and do pay for bigger ads...
-
I was disappointed to see the lack of information about a fellow STL guy (Chris Hoff of BPT). :(
His system looked pretty neat, but only a picture was shown. No comments or reviews.
Bob
-
I understand we're allowed (encouraged even?) to say stuff like this on AN, so I have a little observation-
Mike, your post is thoughtful, intelligent and respectful, while making a critical observation. That is allowed at AN. Personal insults, or things that make others uncomfortable is not. Thanks for asking.
You're all right but just a couple of clarifications..
1, I'd like AN to be more about actual observations, whatever they are. Honesty yields predictability. We can all learn to understand each other's preferences if you're just honest about what you hear. It's great to read about what you heard and how you heard it. Why did you feel compelled to write about it?
2, It's not about AC. In this case I understand what you're talking about and is exactly why AN has no manufacturer circles.. When I was admin of 2-channel I generally let anything fly but then I noticed myself getting into the 'don't upset the manufacturers' mindset.. and 'say it nicely'.. and found it was a sort-of censorship. It's a tough line to manage.. and is a large reason as to why I created AN.
We do have sponsors here. But they're companies run by business men who aren't going to freak out at every negative review. John at Black Sand was our first sponsor and I've developed a great relationship with him.. but if his cable doesn't come out on top, I'm still going to say it inthe post-meet write-up. One time I warned him about it... told him "John, I don't know about this shoot-out.. your cable's not looking good against xyz.." He just laughed and said 'whatever'. It made me realize he's been around enough to know that every situation is different... and is confident his cable has enough of a reputation to take a hit now and again... That's the kind of professionalism we have with all of our sponsors so I don't have to worry about stepping on toes down the road.
Everything is above board here. Be honest, be respectful.. and of course, have fun. :)
-C
-
Many of the AC manufacturers rooms did sound good....but they still don't get the coverage that the "Big" boys get....not until they make big waves.
The "name brands" still hold forth....and do pay for bigger ads...
To that point.. I think Audiogon is owned by Stereophile now.. so, that may bias their coverage a bit...
-C
-
I was disappointed to see the lack of information about a fellow STL guy (Chris Hoff of BPT). :(
His system looked pretty neat, but only a picture was shown. No comments or reviews.
Bob
Chris and Steve's room sounded very good Bob...one of my first stops.
The speakers that Chris had were really special...and big. Since they were in a larger room...
things worked out well.
As for more comments....don't know why no one has posted more....but the area where they were located had some "heavy hitters".
-
I was disappointed to see the lack of information about a fellow STL guy (Chris Hoff of BPT). :(
His system looked pretty neat, but only a picture was shown. No comments or reviews.
Bob
Don't worry Bob, I've got them covered in my ETM writeup that I'm working on as I type. Its sort of hard to focus on the article when there is another train wreck going on next door :roll: With some luck I'll get it to big Steve tomorrow and have it published maybe in the mid-month update. In the meanwhile I need to type and not troll :duh
-
I was disappointed to see the lack of information about a fellow STL guy (Chris Hoff of BPT). :(
His system looked pretty neat, but only a picture was shown. No comments or reviews.
Bob
Chris and Steve's room sounded very good Bob...one of my first stops.
The speakers that Chris had were really special...and big. Since they were in a larger room...
things worked out well.
As for more comments....don't know why no one has posted more....but the area where they were located had some "heavy hitters".
I can attest to the big part. I drove out with Chris and helped him unload them pre-show and reload them after the show. Unfortunately, with my own room responsibilities, I didn't get much chance to hear them - certainly not ater Chris got all of the room correction dialed in.
Bryan
-
Alright guys, thanks for the BPT update. Good to know they sounded nice. Chris and I had been chatting about them for a few months now. I've been eager to hear impressions. One of these days I'll make it out to his place to hear them.
I assume he ended up in a bigger room since he requested it (and paid more for it), or is it the luck of the draw with what sized room you get?
Also Scott, if you'd be so kind as to send me a link to ETM when it's published, I'd like to read it. I'll probably forget about it since I don't go there very often, and when I do, it's to look at the DIY section (mainly 'cause I've got an article coming out soon).
Bob
-
Oh yeah. He was in a much bigger room with a nice high ceiling. The only problem was that there was so much fan/motor noise that he had a hard time getting a good reading of the room for the DEQX to work right.
Knowing Chris, I'm sure it sounded great.
Bryan
-
You guys are kind but who am I to argue? 8)
Glad you could make it out, I know we're a pretty fair distance from the hotels.
That reminds me, I'd love to see the photos Scott took of the glowing tubes.
Actually, one of the best sounds at RMAF 09' was the sound of Mike Galusha's mancave with Gedde's Abbeys powered by his Mac 275.
I agree completely. Mike's system sounded awesome. Sort of knowing the sound of the SP speakers, I was expecting a similar sound with the Gedde's waveguide. Boy was that assumption wrong :duh
-
The only problem was that there was so much fan/motor noise ....................
From where?
Cooling fans from the equipment, or from the hotel HVAC?
Bob
-
I was disappointed to see the lack of information about a fellow STL guy (Chris Hoff of BPT). :(
His system looked pretty neat, but only a picture was shown. No comments or reviews.
Bob
I commented on this room over on AC It was a very good sounding room, computer audiio is usually not my cup of tea but i liked the sound. The Speakers had a big room filling sound even with 8 15 in base drivers the room was very articulate. good highs and mids.
Ed
-
I must have missed your post. I thought I got them all. :lol:
Thanks Ed.
Bob
-
The only problem was that there was so much fan/motor noise ....................
From where?
Cooling fans from the equipment, or from the hotel HVAC?
Bob
Yes. Even when they turned off the HVAC to the room itself, there was so much other mechanical noise that he could never get the noise floor low enough for the DEQX to reach it's 'confidence level'
Bryan
-
No kiddin'? :shock:
But was it from his equipment, or ambient created by the hotel?
Bob
-
Nope. Not his at all. It was the mechanicals in the hotel. The room he had is normally a banquet room or larger meeting room - down on the first floor next to the atrium, bar, etc.
DEQX wants you to get down to something like 28db ambient noise level.
Bryan
-
My take on Manufactures with a presence on AC and how well they held up is this.
ci audio / Von Schweikert was some where in the top 3 or 4 rooms in IMHO this year I didn't find a Jaw dropping good room this year. The rest of the AC manufactures were running with the pack Collective they all sounded good but not to my ear enough to stand out above the crowd for sound only. with the value added price/ performance factor they go up a notch or 2 in my book.
Daedalus Audio / Modwright teamed up very well I thought the Smaller Daedalus speakers in the second room sounded more dialed in then the bigger pair but i am sure that was only something to do with the room and not the speakers.
I thought the VR -7 need some dialing in I don't think they sounded as good as the RMAF rumors projected they did.
I think the smaller vendors get lost in the big dollar stuff at RMAF.
I understand we're allowed (encouraged even?) to say stuff like this on AN, so I have a little observation-
Reading the comments RE RMAF over on AC, one gets the impression that every mfgr w/ an AC presence had the best sound at the show and that no other maker of audio goodies understands what good sound is.
Yet I just read through a 65+ long thread on AGon about the best/worst sounds at the show, and jeez there was barely a mention of any of the stuff that is consistently being hailed as the second coming on AC. I did see mention of Omega and the good value at the Grant room, but little or nothing more than that.
I guess this stuck out due to what I see as the cults of personalities that surround (and are fostered by) many of the mfgr circles on AC. If you disagree with them it's like you called their baby ugly. Great press for the mfgrs, but hardly the way to have honest discourse about this hobby.
I know that many posters were merely providing info about the mfgrs that most people on AC are familiar with - I guess that's only natural.
But to read the comments on AC vs. AGon makes it seem like there were two RMAF going on - One for AC mfgrs and then the rest.
No big deal and I do over-generalize. Just wanted to say, for apparently no good reason :lol:
-Mike
-
Nope. Not his at all. It was the mechanicals in the hotel. The room he had is normally a banquet room or larger meeting room - down on the first floor next to the atrium, bar, etc.
DEQX wants you to get down to something like 28db ambient noise level.
Bryan
Oh, ok...gotcha.
Hell, I'd think 28dB would be hard to get in most rooms.
Thanks for the info Bryan.
I just realised I've been OTing....sorry 'bout that.
Bob
-
That reminds me, I'd love to see the photos Scott took of the glowing tubes.
...ooops :duh
You've got an email headed your way......shortly
-
I hope to hear more RMAF perspective from people on this site. I agree with the comments about the objectivity of AC, however the nature of the AC site is not condusive to objectivity. How many times do we have to read typical fanboy posts from the same shills who gang up on anyone who presents a point of view that is not 100% in favor of the respective manufacturer.
Actually, I enjoyed Tyson and Pez's review of the fest. Those guys are pretty cool and the pictures/comments were entertaining.
I've always lurked on the NYAR circle and look forward to following the happenings on this site. 8)
Cheers,
Jack
-
Jack, I agree that seeking a balanced perspective on one of AC's manufacturer circles is usually an exercise in futility. Even though most products are not perfect when you make the mistake of pointing this out you are vilified. I generally steer clear them in their entirety and that way my tongue doesn't hurt so often. When the more generalized circles disappeared most of my interest in AC waned. The proposed changes to AC should bring back the entertainment value to what it was in the old days.
Scotty
-
Jack, I agree that seeking a balanced perspective on one of AC's manufacturer circles is usually an exercise in futility. Even though most products are not perfect when you make the mistake of pointing this out you are vilified. I generally steer clear them in their entirety and that way my tongue doesn't hurt so often. When the more generalized circles disappeared most of my interest in AC waned. The proposed changes to AC should bring back the entertainment value to what it was in the old days.
Scotty
I don't think the site will ever recapture what it once was. Hopefully, people stick around here because this site has the same vibe as the original AC. Remember AC was born out of the ashes of Harmonicdiscord. Maybe a new site (hint, hint) can strengthen as a result of the stumbles of AC. Also, the nature of AC will never allow for the type of open exchange you are looking for. It will remain a site filled with some great people (if they aren't banned) and lots of fanboys and shills for manufacturers. I like many of the manufacturers but the glowing, kool-aid drinking, salad tossing used to make me sick...thankfully I was banned for life, and don't have to deal with it anymore! :lol:
Cheers,
J
-
I did not know the DEQX is looking for 28d ambient noise. I learn something. That would be very hard in the US home environment, but it would work very well in Japan. Japanese suburbia is very quiet. My company installed broadband remotes (fiber to the home) rated at 33dbA in Japan. The japanese operator received complaints from folks who live across the street from the remote, they heard it at night loud and clear. And it was not an isolated complaint. I got to appreciate that the japanese ears are very sensitive, they can pick up tiny noises that us, Americans and my German engineers could not hear. Our American ears have been de-sensitized due to the higher noise ambient in our society. We had a SW glitch that generated these utterly faint clicks, yet 8/10 Japanese could pick them up within seconds. Took me 2 hours to finally hear them. Even instruments cannot pick them from the noise floor.
-
Here is a link to a table on ambient noise levels from Noise Pollution Clearinghouse.
http://www.nonoise.org/library/household/index.htm
From the table it would appear that a quiet room is between 28 and 33dB on average. Who knew?
The last time I might have had a room this quiet was when I had a basement "man-cave" in rural
Ohio. I don't think the living room in my condo on the 12th floor is that quiet.
Scotty
-
Jackman...
..I was banned for life....
Guess what Jack....seems you've been unbanned....
Good luck...
Chris
-
Jackman...
..I was banned for life....
Guess what Jack....seems you've been unbanned....
Good luck...
Chris
Thanks Wolfy, it's good to hear from you. I will probably be more of a lurker but I've always enjoyed following your trivails! I'm a fan of this site and hope people continue to support it. The NYAR group is my favorite. Wish we had something similar in Chicago but we don't. You guys have all of the fun!
Cheers,
Jack
-
Wish we had something similar in Chicago but we don't.
Chicago is a big town....maybe some might see your post here Jack. 8)
The audio gatherings are always fun.... :beer:
-
Hey Jack,
Have you tried CAS (Chicago Audio Society)?
http://www.chicagoaudio.org/
They seem pretty active though they really don't hold much of a presence on any of the boards I've seen. From what I've noticed, they tend to be a bit analytical and more into gear than the fun side of audiophilia which is absolutely cool too.
The other one I've seen is the Chicago Horn Club. That one is Tom Brennen, Don Bunce, Kurt Chang and a few other guys. Granted, those guys are 'hornies' but horns can be loads of fun to listen to. Maybe not the most accurate speakers on the planet but they some things very well.
I know the Chicagoland area has tons of audiophiles. Not sure where to point you other than those guys.
Scott
Thanks Wolfy, it's good to hear from you. I will probably be more of a lurker but I've always enjoyed following your trivails! I'm a fan of this site and hope people continue to support it. The NYAR group is my favorite. Wish we had something similar in Chicago but we don't. You guys have all of the fun!
Cheers,
Jack
-
Thanks Scott and Wolf,
I'll have to check out the CAS and the horn club. Winter is coming and my road biking days are going to be on hold until spring. Will have more time to mess around with audio when the temperature drops. Looking forward to following your audio adventures in the meantime.
Jack
-
Jack, I agree that seeking a balanced perspective on one of AC's manufacturer circles is usually an exercise in futility. Even though most products are not perfect when you make the mistake of pointing this out you are vilified. I generally steer clear them in their entirety and that way my tongue doesn't hurt so often. When the more generalized circles disappeared most of my interest in AC waned. The proposed changes to AC should bring back the entertainment value to what it was in the old days.
Scotty
I don't think the site will ever recapture what it once was. Hopefully, people stick around here because this site has the same vibe as the original AC. Remember AC was born out of the ashes of Harmonicdiscord. Maybe a new site (hint, hint) can strengthen as a result of the stumbles of AC. Also, the nature of AC will never allow for the type of open exchange you are looking for. It will remain a site filled with some great people (if they aren't banned) and lots of fanboys and shills for manufacturers. I like many of the manufacturers but the glowing, kool-aid drinking, salad tossing used to make me sick...thankfully I was banned for life, and don't have to deal with it anymore! :lol:
Cheers,
J
I agree, even though I am unbanned I still feel stifled over there... so...
-
Stifle it Edith!!!
(http://dogpile.com/clickserver/_iceUrlFlag=1?rawURL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.queenstribune.com%2Fguides%2F2006_Queens100%2Fimages%2Fwho1.jpg&0=&1=0&4=159.53.110.141&5=159.53.110.141&9=8bdb1159496044679af63bc68950ca01&10=1&11=info.dogpl&13=search&14=372380&15=main-title&17=3&18=2&19=0&20=0&21=3&22=%2BXPovXh6b%2B8%3D&23=0&40=vlLfm8XMBBca1W25KRpfqQ%3D%3D&_IceUrl=true)
-
I've never been to an audio show, but one day, I will. :thumb:
My biggest issue is that, for me at least, it would be an excercise in futility for the following reasons:
1. Even if I had an identical set-up, it's going to sound different (due to the room. . .and that can be good or bad);
2. I likely wouldn't have an identical set-up, but want 1 or 2 components from such a set-up. Now, would that work with the rest of my system?;
3. From experience trying out guitars, amps, etc., I know it will take me weeks to truly know whether I like something or not. To feel comfortable enough to know if I like something, I need it to be in my own personal environment. I'm not the type that can go to a guitar shop and try out an amp or guitar (even several times) and say, "Oh, I want this!" I really need to be in my own little world with such things.
With all that, I have found information I have read on audio sites (and guitar sites) SUPER helpful to get a "head-start" on things. Besides that, I think I would feel a bit intimidated going to an audio show.
So, regardless of my rambling above, again, one day I will go to an audio show. :rofl: Basically, I have nothing to offer to this thread. . . :-P
-
Hey Paul,
I hear you. I would like to check out a show sometime. Some systems are at a disadvantage (I'm thinking large ones in small rooms), but it seems like a cool way to check out some systems that are way beyond my budget.
You should forget about wasting your time going to shows and listening to music and spend more time making music! For those who don't know, our own PJchappy is a very talented musician. Sorry if I let the cat out of the bag, but I'm not joking! He has real talent.
Cheers,
Jack
-
Camaraderie. :-P
-
I enjoyed hanging out with Lonewolf, Richidoo, Cap'n Humble, Bill O'Connell and so on more than any gear I heard. THAT's what this hobby has become for me... enjoying music with friends. That was my experience at RMAF.
-C
-
Camaraderie. :-P
Yep, That was the word I would use to express my 2008 experience at RMAF! :thumb:
Ken
-
I enjoyed hanging out with Lonewolf, Richidoo, Cap'n Humble, Bill O'Connell and so on more than any gear I heard. THAT's what this hobby has become for me... enjoying music with friends. That was my experience at RMAF.
-C
Yes....that's always the best part. 8) :beer:
We had fun in '08....too bad you guys couldn't make '09. :(
-
I plan to make it to NY at some point... I'd rather see local systems than systems setup in hotels.. and meet more of the NY gang... :)
-
I plan to make it to NY at some point... I'd rather see local systems than systems setup in hotels.. and meet more of the NY gang... :)
Careful....I've heard their a "wild bunch" Carl..... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
-
Yeah, he may get banned from his own site, for indecent exposure. :shock: