Author Topic: New Info Discussed, Class A, AB, B, and C operation/mode  (Read 5784 times)

Offline steve

  • Audiologist
  • *
  • Posts: 1249
Re: New Info Discussed, Class A, AB, B, and C operation/mode
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2024, 02:43:24 PM »
Hi Nick,

I still have the modi 2, fully upgraded now. Being partially upgraded, it did slightly lacked some width
vs the Denafrip 5k dac but beat the Chord Dave in frequency balance. I have not compared the modi to
them since, but the fully upgraded modi 2 sounds even better. The only down side is the large chassis to
house the caps and modi 2. So it is not pretty looking being a test subject.

It all started because I was given the modi 2 for free and just wanted to tinker with it.
Frankly, I had no idea of how much it could be improved, but now I don't even consider purchasing
another dac.

ps. My monoblocks weigh approximately 25lbs.

cheers

steve

Hi Steve,

I had a hunch you still had that Modi 2. Glad you were able to improve it to such a great extent.

Nick

Hi Nick,

Yes, I still have the upgraded Modi 2. I am still waiting to hear a better DAC. (The original,
non-upgraded version is not very good, but I got it for free, so why not tweak?)

Cymbals in take 5 outtakes are unbelievable. Checking with many selections, everything
from highs to bass sounds live. Woody sounds very woody. Brass brass, strings strings,
double bass sounds like natural, live double bass. Dynamics, transients, musicality,
sound stage, PRAT in spades.

After reading all the stories, the hype, the weaknesses in digital, and then reading how upgrading
the lowly modi 2 immensely improved the sound, that does raise questions.

I never thought it was possible either because the marketing is always the digital, the mic, speakers,
room, etc etc. Yet we know that analog gear is rarely even close to accurate/natural through
specialized listening tests, in absolute terms.

For newbies. What Nobody mentions are the analog stages inside the expensive DAC.
A company spends thousands of dollars on an analog preamplifier and amplifier
(which are not accurate) and then spends less than $30.00 on the DAC's analog stage(s) parts
expecting top notch quality sound?

Consider just the electrolytic caps in these high priced DACs/electronics.
The DA of an electrolytic is ~7; although I have read 5% to 15%. That is a lot of
signal messed up. A polypropylene cap has a DA of only ~0,02%. Big big difference.

Yet, the electrolytic capacitor is routinely used in all electronics, including expensive DAC's
analog stages. DAC Tube stages are no better.

If they changed the electrolytic capacitors to poly caps, imagine how improved,
wonderful they would sound, maybe. (There are still other factors, parts quality,
part values etc as well.)

Now it is ok to have some electrolytic caps IF they are right next to the rectifier, far away from
the musical signal. Space may require electrolytics, but Not near the musical signal.
Attached below is an internal photo of a DAC. Notice all the black cylinders, electrolytic capacitors.

Polypropylene caps are largely responsible that I and others can detect 1 part in less than 4.1 million
change in the lab system (now at home); quite extraordinary. Using 20log equation, that is -132db down.
The ear is that sensitive. No wonder we notice sonic differences between components.

cheers

steve
« Last Edit: March 01, 2024, 09:26:34 AM by steve »
Steve Sammet (Owner, Electron Eng, SAS Audio Labs, Ret)
SAS "V" 39pf/m 6N copper ICs,
SAS Test Phono Stage
Acutex 320 STR Mov Iron Cart
SAS 11A Perfect Tube Preamp
SAS 25 W Ref Triode/UL Monoblocks
2 way Floor Standing Test Speakers

Offline Nick B

  • Audio Neurotic
  • *****
  • Posts: 4140
Re: New Info Discussed, Class A, AB, B, and C operation/mode
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2024, 11:17:59 PM »
Hi Nick,

I still have the modi 2, fully upgraded now. Being partially upgraded, it did slightly lacked some width
vs the Denafrip 5k dac but beat the Chord Dave in frequency balance. I have not compared the modi to
them since, but the fully upgraded modi 2 sounds even better. The only down side is the large chassis to
house the caps and modi 2. So it is not pretty looking being a test subject.

It all started because I was given the modi 2 for free and just wanted to tinker with it.
Frankly, I had no idea of how much it could be improved, but now I don't even consider purchasing
another dac.

ps. My monoblocks weigh approximately 25lbs.

cheers

steve

Hi Steve,

I had a hunch you still had that Modi 2. Glad you were able to improve it to such a great extent.

Nick

Hi Nick,

Yes, I still have the upgraded Modi 2. I am still waiting to hear a better DAC. (The original,
non-upgraded version is not very good, but I got it for free, so why not tweak?)

Cymbals in take 5 outtakes are unbelievable. Checking with many selections, everything
from highs to bass sounds live. Woody sounds very woody. Brass brass, strings strings,
double bass sounds like natural, live double bass. Dynamics, transients, musicality,
sound stage, PRAT in spades.

After reading all the stories, the hype, the weaknesses in digital, and then reading how upgrading
the lowly modi 2 immensely improved the sound, that does raise questions.

I never thought it was possible either because the marketing is always the digital, the mic, speakers,
room, etc etc. Yet we know that analog gear is rarely even close to accurate/natural through
specialized listening tests, in absolute terms.

For newbies. What Nobody mentions are the analog stages inside the DAC are just as far off from being
accurate/natural, and just as difficult to design as a preamplifier and/or amplifier, any analog stage.
To think that one can spend thousands of dollars on a system while the DAC's analog stage(s) costs
less than $30.00 is pretty insulting.

Consider just the electrolytic caps in these high priced DACs/electronics.
The DA of an electrolytic is ~7; although I have read 5% to 15%. That is a lot of
signal messed up. A polypropylene cap has a DA of only ~0,02%. Big big difference.

Yet, the electrolytic capacitor is routinely used in all electronics, including expensive DAC's
analog stages. DAC Tube stages are no better.

If they changed the electrolytic capacitors to poly caps, imagine how improved,
wonderful they would sound, maybe. (There are still other factors, parts quality,
part values etc as well.)

Now it is ok to have some electrolytic caps IF they are right next to the rectifier, far away from
the musical signal. Space may require electrolytics, but Not near the musical signal.
Attached below is an internal photo of a DAC. Notice all the black cylinders, electrolytic capacitors.

Polypropylene caps are largely responsible that I and others can detect 1 part in less than 4.1 million
change in the lab system (now at home); quite extraordinary. Using 20log equation, that is -132db down.
The ear is that sensitive. No wonder we notice sonic differences between components.

cheers

steve

Thanks, Steve. Quite interesting what can be done if one is knowledgeable, open minded, creative and willing to spend a bit to upgrade crucial parts.

Nick
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline steve

  • Audiologist
  • *
  • Posts: 1249
Re: New Info Discussed, Class A, AB, B, and C operation/mode
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2024, 09:02:34 PM »
Hi Nick,

I still have the modi 2, fully upgraded now. Being partially upgraded, it did slightly lacked some width
vs the Denafrip 5k dac but beat the Chord Dave in frequency balance. I have not compared the modi to
them since, but the fully upgraded modi 2 sounds even better. The only down side is the large chassis to
house the caps and modi 2. So it is not pretty looking being a test subject.

It all started because I was given the modi 2 for free and just wanted to tinker with it.
Frankly, I had no idea of how much it could be improved, but now I don't even consider purchasing
another dac.

ps. My monoblocks weigh approximately 25lbs.

cheers

steve

Hi Steve,

I had a hunch you still had that Modi 2. Glad you were able to improve it to such a great extent.

Nick

Hi Nick,

Yes, I still have the upgraded Modi 2. I am still waiting to hear a better DAC. (The original,
non-upgraded version is not very good, but I got it for free, so why not tweak?)

Cymbals in take 5 outtakes are unbelievable. Checking with many selections, everything
from highs to bass sounds live. Woody sounds very woody. Brass brass, strings strings,
double bass sounds like natural, live double bass. Dynamics, transients, musicality,
sound stage, PRAT in spades.

After reading all the stories, the hype, the weaknesses in digital, and then reading how upgrading
the lowly modi 2 immensely improved the sound, that does raise questions.

I never thought it was possible either because the marketing is always the digital, the mic, speakers,
room, etc etc. Yet we know that analog gear is rarely even close to accurate/natural through
specialized listening tests, in absolute terms.

For newbies. What Nobody mentions are the analog stages inside the DAC are just as far off from being
accurate/natural, and just as difficult to design as a preamplifier and/or amplifier, any analog stage.
To think that one can spend thousands of dollars on a system while the DAC's analog stage(s) costs
less than $30.00 is pretty insulting.

Consider just the electrolytic caps in these high priced DACs/electronics.
The DA of an electrolytic is ~7; although I have read 5% to 15%. That is a lot of
signal messed up. A polypropylene cap has a DA of only ~0,02%. Big big difference.

Yet, the electrolytic capacitor is routinely used in all electronics, including expensive DAC's
analog stages. DAC Tube stages are no better.

If they changed the electrolytic capacitors to poly caps, imagine how improved,
wonderful they would sound, maybe. (There are still other factors, parts quality,
part values etc as well.)

Now it is ok to have some electrolytic caps IF they are right next to the rectifier, far away from
the musical signal. Space may require electrolytics, but Not near the musical signal.
Attached below is an internal photo of a DAC. Notice all the black cylinders, electrolytic capacitors.

Polypropylene caps are largely responsible that I and others can detect 1 part in less than 4.1 million
change in the lab system (now at home); quite extraordinary. Using 20log equation, that is -132db down.
The ear is that sensitive. No wonder we notice sonic differences between components.

cheers

steve

Thanks, Steve. Quite interesting what can be done if one is knowledgeable, open minded, creative and willing to spend a bit to upgrade crucial parts.

Nick

Unfortunately, the price of upgrade rose. I believe I mentioned ~ $550 tag a year ago. Well, thanks to inflation,
better parts, a better upgrade, the price is roughly $800. Having tested for some time now, every aspect sounds
optimum.

However, since others have fuller and leaner sounding systems, I am testing a power supply with 2 switches
that allows one to hear:

1. my optimum setting DAC,

2. or adjust the tonal balance switches to match a slightly fuller

3. or slightly leaner system than mine

without any loss of fidelity. Whether this option is that effective vs costs will be up
to the customers. Hope my audio friends solidify an opinion when they visit in the coming months.

Cheers

steve
« Last Edit: March 05, 2024, 09:17:28 PM by steve »
Steve Sammet (Owner, Electron Eng, SAS Audio Labs, Ret)
SAS "V" 39pf/m 6N copper ICs,
SAS Test Phono Stage
Acutex 320 STR Mov Iron Cart
SAS 11A Perfect Tube Preamp
SAS 25 W Ref Triode/UL Monoblocks
2 way Floor Standing Test Speakers