the SAT and Schroeder tonearms

[Nick B]

I am fascinated by state of the art tonearms and turntables and the ability to extract information. I believe the first company to show the capability to extract much more detail from records was Linn in the 1980s. I had a Linn table and Ittok arm for a few years.

The SAT tonearms are designed by Marc Gomez who has resided in Sweden for some years. Gomez’ thoughts are that the tonearm needs to be extremely rigid and stiff. The mass of the arm is not discussed and it appears heavy. The other designer is Frank Schroeder from Germany. His latest is the CB arm. The mass appears much less than the SAT and the arms are also available in a few wood varieties. Wood is never mentioned regarding the SAT arms, presumably because it lacks the stiffness of carbon fiber. I’ve included a few links regarding Gomez and Schroeder and their explanations of tonearm design. One video on the Mark Dohmann website (Mark designed the Caliburn turntable)
shows the effect of a tiny scrap of paper being placed on the Schroeder arm. A couple of other videos are from the Analog Planet guy, Michael Fremer. He has a Caliburn table and the SAT arm. My favorite cut is “Today” from Jefferson Airplane. Geez, it sounds great even on my iPad.
So for those of you analog guys and if you have the time, you might enjoy the information. As for me, I’ve not had my analog rig going for years. It’s a shame because it’s a Basis table and Graham arm.
Nick

https://youtu.be/4vzcD8OK_Do

https://dohmannaudio.com/schroder-cb-tonearm/

https://youtu.be/FVZYvLCa4BQ


https://youtu.be/rC5FvFIGzr0

https://youtu.be/CjERiiA4ovI


https://youtu.be/I7joa8ixIuQ


https://youtu.be/DFx9hMKoQjU

[S Clark]

I watched the first video and thought it was excellent info.  I'll take the rest over the next day or so.  Thanks for compiling these. 

[Guy 13]

Thanks Nick B for all the links.
The first video being the best one, fomr me anyway.
40 years (Or so) ago,
I owned a Linn LP-12 with Itok arm.
Why I did not keep it ?
(Kept it for 15 years or so...)
I think it's because, like many, I went into digital (Linn CD-3)
and honestly, after a few years, I also sold that Linn item and went back to vinyl
(Sony El Cheapo) now I have a Regar P3 with Exact MM cartridge.
I don't compare anymore vinyl vs analogue, they are different, period.

Guy 13
 

[Nick B]

Thanks Nick B for all the links.
The first video being the best one, fomr me anyway.
40 years (Or so) ago,
I owned a Linn LP-12 with Itok arm.
Why I did not keep it ?
(Kept it for 15 years or so...)
I think it's because, like many, I went into digital (Linn CD-3)
and honestly, after a few years, I also sold that Linn item and went back to vinyl
(Sony El Cheapo) now I have a Regar P3 with Exact MM cartridge.
I don't compare anymore vinyl vs analogue, they are different, period.

Guy 13

Guy,
I enjoyed the Linn gear, but there were one or two songs that made the Itok arm ring very badly. I took that same record to a dealer who carried the Moerch tonearm and it had no problem. I don’t want to much get into comparisons either. Just want to enjoy the music.
Nick

[Nick B]

I watched the first video and thought it was excellent info.  I'll take the rest over the next day or so.  Thanks for compiling these.

My pleasure. The sophisticated technology is amazing...and so  are the prices 🙄

[Folsom]

I kind of think "meh" about tonearms somewhat frequently. There's so many ways to enhance how much resolution you get, without having to buy a $52k+ SAT arm. Not all are willing to go with it. I personally don't think MC's are required, nor crazy crazy tables and arms. That doesn't mean I don't like any of that, but not necessarily required. Nick you have an amazing table to start with.

Arms I think about to some degree:

SME 3012R: Original, this arm is preferred by a lot of people that have no limitations on money, like could buy just about anything. One of the best parts is the universal headshell. There's more than one thing that makes it good. One of them is that the bearings aren't super bearings. People always think that the most free bearings possible on a tonearm are desirable, this just isn't true.

Audiomods Series 6: It's appealing because it might be in a class of its own for just "not being there", with amazing fit and finish for not a ton of $. But it may also not sound as interesting as something else that has "flaws" that give appealing sound.

The Wand: It looks neat, the supplied stuff is cool. I'm not really in favor of unipivot because there's no good reason for it, but I think it's a neat looking tonearm.

SpJ: Super weird, designed by a Russian woman who lives in Israel. Her stuff has very high regards. I just think it is neat.



Here's the thing about half of all high ends stuff... You over design it until you fuck something up in just the right way that it has an appealing sound. That or you intentionally do it. I'm not saying that's all that happens, but the data tends to show it. We aren't very attracted to the best data figures, but we are often attracted to things we think would have better data but doesn't - and I mean attracted by sound.

But I have to say SAT has thought of a lot of things. The adjustable loading on bearings is very smart. Stiffness is good so long as the resonance is right. Stiffness is weird because even the adjustment screws on the SAT can make it sound different if they are engaged even with the set screws set.

If you can afford it, sure, whatever, grab one. But when a 3012R is still available, you're kind of facing extreme diminishing returns.

[Nick B]

I kind of think "meh" about tonearms somewhat frequently. There's so many ways to enhance how much resolution you get, without having to buy a $52k+ SAT arm. Not all are willing to go with it. I personally don't think MC's are required, nor crazy crazy tables and arms. That doesn't mean I don't like any of that, but not necessarily required. Nick you have an amazing table to start with.

Arms I think about to some degree:

SME 3012R: Original, this arm is preferred by a lot of people that have no limitations on money, like could buy just about anything. One of the best parts is the universal headshell. There's more than one thing that makes it good. One of them is that the bearings aren't super bearings. People always think that the most free bearings possible on a tonearm are desirable, this just isn't true.

Audiomods Series 6: It's appealing because it might be in a class of its own for just "not being there", with amazing fit and finish for not a ton of $. But it may also not sound as interesting as something else that has "flaws" that give appealing sound.

The Wand: It looks neat, the supplied stuff is cool. I'm not really in favor of unipivot because there's no good reason for it, but I think it's a neat looking tonearm.

SpJ: Super weird, designed by a Russian woman who lives in Israel. Her stuff has very high regards. I just think it is neat.



Here's the thing about half of all high ends stuff... You over design it until you fuck something up in just the right way that it has an appealing sound. That or you intentionally do it. I'm not saying that's all that happens, but the data tends to show it. We aren't very attracted to the best data figures, but we are often attracted to things we think would have better data but doesn't - and I mean attracted by sound.

But I have to say SAT has thought of a lot of things. The adjustable loading on bearings is very smart. Stiffness is good so long as the resonance is right. Stiffness is weird because even the adjustment screws on the SAT can make it sound different if they are engaged even with the set screws set.

If you can afford it, sure, whatever, grab one. But when a 3012R is still available, you're kind of facing extreme diminishing returns.

Thanks for your input, Jeremy. I wish I had the analog knowledge that you and some of the guys here have. I also hadn’t heard of a few companies that you mentioned. I see that you priced the latest SAT arm at $52k 🙀 In comparison, the Schroeder arm is a bargain at less than $10 k....
You’re probably right about over engineering, but that’s part of what fascinates me about this stuff. Mark Dohmann talks about how he isolates his turntable and the arm from the stand, movement on a wooden floor, etc.
Sonically, I’ve heard some very good vinyl for a very reasonable price. I am now curious as to how my vinyl rig would sound after all this time. Not sure my Pangea stand could handle the 70 lb Basis on the top shelf. The Basis needs a new belt and an updated bearing. I spoke with designer AJ Conti a few years ago. I know he died a couple of years ago. Then there’s the Graham arm also needs to have new fluid put in the reservoir. It’s a unipivot design.
I’m going to read up on that SME arm and the other companies you mentioned.

[Folsom]

Your TT's specs make me drool. 

The real challenge to a table with such boss specs is that the rest of the stereo has to be good. Lenco L75 (I have one I need to assemble) have a 25hz noise that adds a flavor to them for example. Other tables use copper platters for a flavor, etc.

AJ is gone but the other guy has continued the brand.

[rollo]

  IMHO a TT that has perfect speed and eliminate resonance from outside source is ALL one needs. I have an LP12/Lingo/Trampolin/Arkiv and Kuzma Stobi with 12" Stogi Adj VTA arm. Both sound great. The cart however is key. The Kuzma 4 point arm is better but not worth the extra money IMO.
I am sure that those exotic arms may be better and may not offer much for the price difference. Would have to blow me absolutely away. However they do not.
I like HO moving coil or MM. Had several LO MC with step up and world class phono stage[ Loesch & Weisner] which were better just not worth the money or hassle compared to a great MM. BTW get a mono cart as well. Best thing I ever bought for vinyl.


charles

[Nick B]

  IMHO a TT that has perfect speed and eliminate resonance from outside source is ALL one needs. I have an LP12/Lingo/Trampolin/Arkiv and Kuzma Stobi with 12" Stogi Adj VTA arm. Both sound great. The cart however is key. The Kuzma 4 point arm is better but not worth the extra money IMO.
I am sure that those exotic arms may be better and may not offer much for the price difference. Would have to blow me absolutely away. However they do not.
I like HO moving coil or MM. Had several LO MC with step up and world class phono stage[ Loesch & Weisner] which were better just not worth the money or hassle compared to a great MM. BTW get a mono cart as well. Best thing I ever bought for vinyl.


charles

I would think as you do that eliminating resonance is very important. That goes for precision machining as well. Regarding the vintage, restored TTs that I see for sale, I  wonder what would happen if the platters were actually put on a lathe to see how out of round they might be. How much difference that alone might make, I have no idea. I used to belong to an audio club and a member had a machine shop that could produce very precise parts. Too bad the club disbanded. Experiments like that would have been fun for me.
As I’ve mentioned, I have a Basis turntable that I may resurrect. It’s belt driven and has a motor that is stand alone. I’ve wondered as to the accuracy of the speeds, but never tested it...partly because I wouldn’t know how.
As to cartridges, I’ve only used a couple and they were mm.  One that I recall was a Shure Ultra 500 and the other an AT ML150. They were dealer mounted, so I have no experience doing that 

[Folsom]

From Stereophile review: Wow & flutter at 331/3: 0.02% ; Rumble: –90dB DIN Standard ; Speed accuracy: ±0.02%

It doesn't get much better than that!

As far as roundness it hardly matters because it's impossible to perfectly center an LP, and few are centered perfectly to their hole anyways. There's only one TT in the world that can do it, and not everyone likes it.

[Nick B]

From Stereophile review: Wow & flutter at 331/3: 0.02% ; Rumble: –90dB DIN Standard ; Speed accuracy: ±0.02%

It doesn't get much better than that!

As far as roundness it hardly matters because it's impossible to perfectly center an LP, and few are centered perfectly to their hole anyways. There's only one TT in the world that can do it, and not everyone likes it.

Thanks for the specs. As to the roundness issue, I understand about that issue with records. Just thought if that issue is present with a platter, it may affect speed, etc. When I have some time, I’ll call Basis in New Hampshire. Oh, by the way, that Audiomods 6 arm seems excellent and priced very well
Nick