AudioNervosa
Systemic Development => Digital Audio Devices => Streaming Players => Topic started by: Bigfish8 on August 01, 2007, 04:48:08 PM
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Guys:
I believe some of you have been using modified Squeezeboxes (model 2 or 3) in your systems for some time. Wayne performed the analog mods and added the platinum caps to my S3. My question is about your experience or concerns about the realibility of the Squeezebox? The reason I am asking is that we are taking a unit that was not really intended as a high-end audiophile component (based on its price) and we are turning it into one. I truly love my Squeezebox but I do have a basis of comparison of its musical capabilities versus a quality CDP or CDP/DAC combination. I would just hate to give up the convenience of being able to select any song in my library from my chair.
I plan to spend more money on my unit in the future through the purchase of a better power supply but somehow I am concerned about investing the money in such a modesty priced unit (from the factory). I look forward to your comments. By the way I have not but am planning to try connecting the S3 directly to the amps when the Grover ICs arrive.
Ken
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IMO, it's a dream for the high end - the opportunity to do a true high end piece without spending a ton. That's exactly WHY I like it.
Bryan
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What Bryan said.
But then you already know I what think, don'cha Ken? :wink:
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I went with the mods done by Black Sand Cable on mine for that very reason... it was cheap, made a nice improvement, and kept the stock warranty.... I'm not a big fan of modifying cheap gear to the max. However, I'm sure Wayne or some of the other modifiers could easily fix problems if they arose... related or unrelated to the mods themselves.
I also am one of the few that doesn't think the SB3 belongs in a really good hifi. It's just not a refined enough piece to go into my main rig. I have them all over the house, though. :) My tastes in digital reproduction are peculiar, though. ;)
To each his own... The modifications likely bring it to a higher level but I'm not willing to take the risk of spending the money, then having it instantly devalued by the used market. Sorry to be such a downer but I've had this reality 'gut-check' in the past with other mods and reselling.
-C
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To each their own. But, after comparing the Boulder analog modded SB3 and power supply to a $12k + Wadia 2 piece system and have the Boulder be as good or better, I took the leap and have never looked back.
Bryan
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I also am one of the few that doesn't think the SB3 belongs in a really good hifi. It's just not a refined enough piece to go into my main rig.
I strongly suspect that's because you haven't heard what Bryan and I have heard.
I wouldn't have traded my SB2 and Ultimate PS for a full dCS stack straight up. In fact, I can say the same for every player and transport/DAC combo I've heard or auditioned (which is a lot, FWIW). What I had - at least at one time - was the finest digital reproduction of music I've ever experienced.
But then maybe my taste in digital reproduction aren't peculiar enough... :wink: :lol:
-Jim
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What Bryan said.
But then you already know I what think, don'cha Ken? :wink:
Jim:
I know you were really happy with the modified Squeezebox and modified power supply. However, I thought you converted to a modified Transporter, a piece of gear aimed at the audiophile market. I am certain, if you made the change to the Transporter, you did so for the potential sound improvement. I guess I did not ask my the question in my post correctly. What I should have asked is if anyone has experienced problems or realiability issues with a modified Squeezebox?
Thanks,
Ken
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None - it's only been positive from my experience and the other half dozen converts here in our GAS group. I have not honestly heard of 1 problem or reliability issue with the units. That certainly doesn't mean that problems don't happen - just that in my experience there haven't been any.
Bryan
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I also am one of the few that doesn't think the SB3 belongs in a really good hifi. It's just not a refined enough piece to go into my main rig.
I strongly suspect that's because you haven't heard what Bryan and I have heard.
I wouldn't have traded my SB2 and Ultimate PS for a full dCS stack straight up. In fact, I can say the same for every player and transport/DAC combo I've heard or auditioned (which is a lot, FWIW). What I had - at least at one time - was the finest digital reproduction of music I've ever experienced.
But then maybe my taste in digital reproduction aren't peculiar enough... :wink: :lol:
-Jim
True... but you haven't heard what I've heard... and probably don't care. ;) But I'll just say I cannot enjoy oversampled digital music. I like the non-oversampling sound... it's just more whole and real to me. The best oversampler in the world will still grate on my nerves after a while.
The SB revolution is a combination of things... Convenience is one big one... But the main thing I think people like about the sound is the lack of jitter... Combined with a decent DAC you're on your way to good sound... Then add the mods to make the clocks sync better, the power cleaner, etc... and I'm sure the results are stellar. I've heard SB3's and a Transporter with cryo-treatment only and not the mods. However, I'm not willing to spend several times the cost of the SB3 to get it to sound like an acceptable transport... only to have to then buy a good non-oversampling DAC on top of that. I'll have 2,k plus wrapped up in a transport and DAC... and still have to spend money on the PC, NAS, etc... and then the value equations starts diminishing... ESPECIALLY if you consider resale.
I could buy a good, new CD player today for 5,k retail. It'll be worth 2-3,k in a few years and likely still work and sound great. If I invested in a PC, SB3+modifications, and a DAC today, the PC and SB3 would be worth a small fraction of its value in the same time... and the DAC would be about half retail, like normal hifi. I'd lose a lot more than half from new... That's the main point I was making.... It's a riskier gamble to try this digital front if you want to resell and do something else.
Additionally, it's not worth it to me to have a PC (with a nice digital out) sitting in the room next to a SB3 with it's tiny 1-line screen... I need to see 2,000+ albums of music... If I press 'P' on my SB3 remote, I'll be scrolling for a few minutes getting to Prince.... Not fun at all. Might as well just hook the PC to the DAC and use the PC's interface... Just makes more sense to me... But, I'm kind of old-school. ;)
Have fun...
-C
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Ah, but that's the beauty. You can use an OLD PC that's not up to any other task and just add disk. Your hand me downs will work forever. And you don't have to have the PC with a nice digital out and in the same room. I run wired Cat5 to 1 of them and wireless to the other. My PC is on the other end of the house.
Add in the slick little palmtop PC with the SlimServer skin and no more 1 line display, no noise, all the convenience. Analog mods - no dac, no jitter, etc. And I'm out for < $2k.
I also like the non-OS dacs. While not a killer, certainly no slouch is the MHDT with a decent tube in it (Bendix Red Bank). Digital out through that DAC vs SB analog mods - no comparison IMO. The SB is so much smoother, more organic, more realistic, more tonally correct, etc - all the things I like in an non-OS DAC and tube combination.
As I said, to each their own. I wasn't a believer either until I heard it in my system in my room. The difference in my case was not at all subtle.
Bryan
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However, I thought you converted to a modified Transporter, a piece of gear aimed at the audiophile market. I am certain, if you made the change to the Transporter, you did so for the potential sound improvement. I guess I did not ask my the question in my post correctly. What I should have asked is if anyone has experienced problems or realiability issues with a modified Squeezebox?
The short version is that I stupidly shipped the best sounding digital set-up I've experienced to a fellow music lover for an audition and it was damaged in transit. Wayne tried to fix it, but it was never quite the same.
So I sold it and went the Transporter route. I did so because I assumed (I *HATE* when I do that!) that it would have at least the same sonic potential as the SB, possibly more. Yeah, it's more expensive, but in the end I thought maybe I could get more from it. Unfortunately, that's not proven true yet, but modders are still working on it. It took Wayne a LOOOOONG time to get his modified SBs to sound as good as they do, and I suspect the same will happen with the Transporter at some point.
True... but you haven't heard what I've heard... and probably don't care. ;) But I'll just say I cannot enjoy oversampled digital music. I like the non-oversampling sound... it's just more whole and real to me. The best oversampler in the world will still grate on my nerves after a while.
Me too, and that's pretty much what I told Wayne up front.
To paraphrase, I said I wasn't a member of his target market. I told him I'd disliked every oversampling DAC I'd ever heard, and that there was no way on earth he could do enough to make me like a $300 plastic transport/player from a company I'd never heard of, ESPECIALLY if it oversampled!
He convinced me to listen anyway, just to provide him with an additional data point. Needless to say, my going in position proved just a wee bit off the mark. :wink:
The SB is so much smoother, more organic, more realistic, more tonally correct, etc - all the things I like in an non-OS DAC and tube combination.
Again, what he said! :D
I've heard SB3's and a Transporter with cryo-treatment only and not the mods. However, I'm not willing to spend several times the cost of the SB3 to get it to sound like an acceptable transport... only to have to then buy a good non-oversampling DAC on top of that. I'll have 2,k plus wrapped up in a transport and DAC... and still have to spend money on the PC, NAS, etc... and then the value equations starts diminishing... ESPECIALLY if you consider resale.
To paraphrase you, I doubt you care what I think. Even so, I believe Bryan and I agree that, if you haven't heard a full-up Bolder Cable SB + Ultimate PS, you haven't heard a fraction of what a SB is capable of. The differences are almost unimaginable, and I say that as someone who compared it with a stock unit (fegettaboutit!), a no-longer-offered Bolder "Basic" modified unit (better, but still not even close) and a top-of-the-line RWA unit (over $600 spent and barely better than a stock unit :( ).
John Cook and I discussed this very thing a couple of days ago, and he doesn't have much regard for what Wayne's doing. Now, I think the world of John and consider him a close and valued friend, but in this matter he's mistaken.
When you say (to paraphrase) "... the SB3 doesn't belong in a really good hifi", you condemn all SB3s without knowing how all of them sound. It's also a back-handed swipe at all those who *do* believe the SB3 belongs there, but I don't believe that was your intent.
Anyway, that's why I responded. If you'd simply said you didn't like the SB3, I probably wouldn't have said a word. But I couldn't allow that broad a brush stroke to pass without trying to pluck a few of the bristles. :wink:
Oh, and with regards to resale value, I sold my SB2 and Ultimate PS for more than I paid for it. How many transports, DACs, etc. can you say that about?
But you're happy where you are, and I'm more than content with my system. Like Bryan said, to each their own. :D
Take care,
-Jim
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Hi Ken
Interesting topic you've picked. Overall, I love the SB wireless music server concept. It's been a very reliable performer for me. Sure, there are glitches, but often just restarting my pc or unplugging my SB 2 ps usually solves the problem. For a very reasonable amount of money, I have this gizmo I bought for about $250 and then spent some $$ (forgot how much) for the analog mods and $600 for a pretty darn good power supply. My investment for a couple of hard drives was minimal.
I appreciate this all so much more than the mega thousands I spent in the early 90's for VAC, Basis, Proac etc. All good, but very high-priced gear. And then I did not have the experience and the right cables and synergy to make it all sound good.
I like the SB 2 straight into the amp. I like not having to buy another dac and more IC's and power cord. Too many boxes and cables. IMO, this wireless dedicated music server concept is just getting off the ground. Believe me, I am looking for something more aesthetically pleasing and functional than an SB 2 and it's companion power supply. But until that time comes, I have very good sound to keep me going.
I wish I had the means to play with different amps, cables and non os vs oversampling dacs. Don't have the funds to do so right now. The only way for me to learn all this is to experience the sound in my house with the music I'm very familiar with and taking my time doing it. Listening at the shows is always fun, but the learning happens in my home listening environment. As Jim mentioned recently, the quality of sound via good gear and cables now makes it much easier to evaluate every new piece that goes into the system.
Ken, I hope that you are home this weekend to enjoy that fine sytem you have.
Nick
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Carl.
If you're coming to RMAF, stop by and see me. I'll be using one of Wayne's modded SB's as the primary source in our room. It's a basic system but I think you'll be amazed at the sound - especially under show conditions.
Modded SB3
Korato Tube Pre
Korato Bipolar SS 100W (class A to 30W) amp
ACI Sapphire XL monitors
Bryan
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The short version is that I stupidly shipped the best sounding digital set-up I've experienced to a fellow music lover for an audition and it was damaged in transit. Wayne tried to fix it, but it was never quite the same.
-Jim
Darn it, Jim. I didn't know that little crack in the board was the beginning of the end. I thought I taped it up quite nicely. :(
I have 2 SB2 s that Wayne modded for me -- one with the analog mod has silver bybees on the outputs and the digital mod one has a gold on the digital out. I still prefer the sound out of my DAC which upsamples to 24/192. Analog out is very good too -- I just prefer the sound of my DAC. To tell you the truth, the difference is very minute and it's not worth the additional $kkks for the DAC if I didn't already have the DAC to go with my transport (my wife insists that she be able to play a CD).
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$kkks
Funny! I like that...
Stock SB is a landmark audio product. It's success is born directly from its low price, that is its best feature. It was designed to the low price, meaning it was not designed as a high end audio device. There are inherent design compromises that disqualify it from being a hgh end source. The sound is very good for a mid fi player, which is why it has become a audiophile cult classic.
It's flaws are serious when considering it for a high end source. I don't believe these can be modded away because they are integral to the trendy "consumer appliance" design.
The flourescent display emits EMI that is audible in the analog output. Dimming the display helps, but it is still audible. Pictures of mods I've seen still run the coupling cap leads across the center of the device so EMI can still be picked up, but not amplified by the output gain stage. What do you guys find with the buzz on modded units? Theoretically it should still be there since low voltage signal from DAC is longer now. To hear it, set display on bright with large font, mute or pause, listen to right speaker - up close if you are lower sensitivity speakers, or from 10 feet away if higher sensitivity.
Digital VC adds noise with bit loss. Hash from using the digital volume control is audible, especially with high end DACs with powerful output stage like Altmann's 5Vpp. Much less audible (if at all) with stock analog outputs, but still there, of course.
My SB hissed full volume white noise at me when it was 3 months old, into a pair of directly connected Nuforce 9se. :shock: I realized then that my unit is a toy and does not deserve upgrades. It has not misbehaved again since then, but I am still gun-shy. Other users have reported this behavior, and last I heard slim was not able to identify the cause. Maybe early batch, or maybe due to interaction with attached amps? Other less serious weird behavior happens from time to time, easily accepted as normal in a $300 device.
Disabling the output stage as is done in Bolder and RedWine mods reduces power output. This has implications that need to be addressed in a successful high end use of SB. I have a big room and occasionally play uncompressed classical music at full volume, straight into the amps and listen from 30 feet away (while I cook :D ). In normal listening I often set SB to 85 and sit 10 feet away. I listen to compressed music at ~65. My speakers are 95dB efficient. So with no output stage I would need active gain after SB to achieve the volume levels I get with stock output stage. An external preamp usually means another pot, more caps, tubes, cables and temporary cable connections to color the sound and affect dynamics, etc. With all these compromises involved in using external attenuation I can understand why direct connection is recommended to hear the benefit of the upgraded SB, but there is a cost to removing the output stage if you listen mostly to music that is not compressed to -8dB RMS as is most modern non-classical music. Burson buffer is being used in place of output stage by some people now, but there's another $kkk.
To be a truly high end product, the speed and ease of use of the GUI needs upgrading too. Foobar on a laptop or couch side display appeals to me, but has drawback of local PC noise. A NAS solves the noise problem, but it can't host slimserver effectively, too slow for navigating. I guess slim running on a PC with network control on a handheld would work fine, but there will be normal wifi/windowsCE issues. NAS also does not have enough processing power to run Inguz plugin, nor to decode flac on the server and NAS still requires an improved display over the SB GUI.
SB is oversampling DAC in a less than ideal implementation due to the packaging and cost limitations. After hearing the battery powered Altmann NOS DAC, I am compelled to follow that path. The stock SB doesn't even come close.
As a $300 consumer electronics product I suspect SB will break inside of 10 years, but that remains to be seen. Every product I've owned in that category starts failing in some way by that time.
I like what stock SB does. I'm in no rush to upgrade, but I will eventually. The SB concept is great, and with good ICs, good cheap linear or battery power supply, and external analog attenuation I think it is a true, low budget, high end source, meaning it can easily be 'enjoyed' in a high end system without irritating distraction. It's not the best sound in the world, of course, but it's good, and better than most anything else made for $600 which is what it costs with Grover ICs and a decent Power-One/Condor/Elpac linear power supply. Maybe NAD or Cambridge Audio or somebody makes a CDP that sounds as good at that price, but it wouldn't have network music features we all love!
Sorry for the length on this one.
Rich
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Dunno Rich.
I have no noise issues. I don't run on bright, don't run large font (use the analog screen saver meters), don't have high efficiency speakers, sit more than 10' away, and don't run direct to the amp. I always run volume full out and use my preamp volume to control things so the bit loss isn't there. The reduced output level can absolutely be an issue if driving an insensitive amp.
I'll agree that the stock unit won't compare to a transport/DAC combination - especially if you still have the switching power supply. Good PS, digital out to external DAC, orders of magnitude better. Modded analog out IMO more like an analog source than any digital source I've heard.
Bryan
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In terms of reliability mine has been running modified for right at 2 years with zero problems. Well, almost zero.. I dropped it about 4ft onto a concrete slab last week and busted the display. Fortunately I was able to obtain a replacement and all is well again. This was certainly no fault of the device. In time the VFD will fail as it's basically a vacuum tube and the cathode will wear out. Mine is wired, so I don't have any of the troubles folks associate with wireless. I do have an SB3 that's stock and wireless and it's been pretty good but it does get stupid sometimes, like every other wireless device I've seen. It does behave better than either of my laptops in this regard tho. :)
My SB2 is highly modified, probably more than 99.9% of them out there and IMO is a very good digital source. I am running it through a Burson Buffer and into a relay based attenuator for a volume control so I am not using the digital volume control. I don't have any noise problems and as for how loud I want to play it I have no problems. Most of this is due to the use of the Burson which raises the output level back up to just over 2V plus the amps I'm using have 28.5 and 30.5dB of gain plus any gain added by the Marchand XO. I have the XO adjusted so that I an just reach clipping with the amps. If the amps had a lower gain factor I could compensate so the low output of the modified SB is not an issue for me. Granted my system is not quite normal in that is uses an active XO and multiple amps.
In my time with the Altman I preferred the SB though I was able to get the Altman to where the differences were minor. For my tastes (and that's what it ultimately comes down to) the modified SB works very well. It buried my Parts Connexion/Underwood Hifi modded Denon SACD player, which is not a bad source.
One of these days I'm going to install it in a new chassis along with the power supply and it will look the part. I guess I'm one of the few who doesn't have any problem with the interface. I can find things on my music server pretty much as fast as I can looking through the CD rack and putting the disc in a player. I suspect this is because I never use the search and I have my server organized by genre/artist/album so that each disk has it's own folder and I always browse by folder. This is no different that having the disks alphabetized in the racks except it's broken down by genre. I can pull up anything in only a few seconds. I have one of the Nokia 770's on loan and while it works OK I find the interface lacking. If I were to keep it I would have to rework the UI to suit my navigational style.
Just another viewpoint, worth exactly what you paid for it. :D
Mike
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Dunno Rich.
I have no noise issues. I don't run on bright, don't run large font (use the analog screen saver meters), don't have high efficiency speakers, sit more than 10' away, and don't run direct to the amp. I always run volume full out and use my preamp volume to control things so the bit loss isn't there. The reduced output level can absolutely be an issue if driving an insensitive amp.
I'll agree that the stock unit won't compare to a transport/DAC combination - especially if you still have the switching power supply. Good PS, digital out to external DAC, orders of magnitude better. Modded analog out IMO more like an analog source than any digital source I've heard.
Bryan
Bryan, I agree with what you posted.
I'm back to using a SB3 as my Transporter is currently in pieces and I have the display on bright with a standard font and use the analog vu meters when something is playing and I also have the SB3's volume cranked. I get zero noise from any of the SB3's or Transporters I have had in my system and I have had my fair share.
I have seen the posts on audio forums about how much noise the SB3 puts out on the analog outputs and it always makes me wonder as I have yet to hear it or measure it. My stock SB3 running through an Equi=Tech 1.5RQ with my own ic's has dam near the same output noise as my McIntosh MVP-861 which is viewed by most as a decent transport. I honestly think if people are getting a lot of noise out of the analog outputs they should take a look at there current set-up before automatically putting the blame on the SB3.....which for $300.00 is a very decent little box and in real world testing, comes very close to the performance level of the Transporter for a lot less money.
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I thought the noises were defects of my unit and I called tech support, who had no idea what I was talking about. I was about to send it in under warrantee, until I found threads on slim forum talking about the problems, complete with posts by the company president explaining the cause.
More info (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32155&highlight=noise+display) about the SB display noise. And a Link (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=19309&highlight=white+noise) to the white noise issue.
I agree with you John, SB is a great product, and I love it for what it is.
Rich
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I have been playing around for the last hour and I'm happy to report that I now have noise! :shock: I went back to a cheap set of ic's and plugged the SB3 into a regular outlet that isn't running off a dedicated breaker and I now have analog line noise. Not White noise that is mentioned in the links above but subtle, noticeable line noise.
Funny part is that in my system it's all power related. I swapped ic's a few times and the noise was still there. I plugged the SB3 into a dedicated outlet and although better, it was still audible although I must admit that I had to max out the volume on my pre to hear it. Then I brought my Equi=Tech back into the mix and the SB3 is once again dead quite. This leads me to believe that based on my own system that the SB3 is picking up internal ac noise and passing it to the analog outputs. When I tried the above using the just the digital out, it didn't matter what I did, there was no noise.
This is going to sound like a plug given my recent partnership with Equi=Tech but I'm going to say it anyway, the Equi=Tech is doing what it should and is filtering out the line noise that the SB3 is passing along the chain. This to me at least is a great example of balanced power at work.
If I had to pass fault, I would blame the SB3 for not having the proper shielding on the analog side. To me at least this isn't a big deal as in order for me to hear this noise I had to crank the volume on my pre to an insane level and if I was listening to something, I would never know it was there. It's also an easy fix. I know a few of the folks at Logitech and will pass along my findings. A few pennies worth of the proper isolation material and this problem is gone.....all without having to have the SB3 modded.
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So, has anybody who has this problem done anything like put a piece of ERS paper on the back of the display?
What John said about power continues to confirm how important power supplies are to the SB. Reading the slim forums I'm still amazed to hear people say the jury is out on whether the power supply makes a difference.
-- Jim