Author Topic: Uh oh… I Think These Are Gorgeous - PAP  (Read 601 times)

Offline ejk

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Re: Uh oh… I Think These Are Gorgeous - PAP
« Reply #30 on: May 13, 2022, 10:17:52 PM »
I just watched a Youtube video from a reviewer who said he was at a conference and sat next to the president of some well known speaker manufacturer (name not mentioned) and asked what is the goal when manufacturing the next best speaker or upgraded version and his response was design, marketing and price. Never mentioned sound quality.

Offline P.I.

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Re: Uh oh… I Think These Are Gorgeous - PAP
« Reply #31 on: May 13, 2022, 11:01:44 PM »
I just watched a Youtube video from a reviewer who said he was at a conference and sat next to the president of some well known speaker manufacturer (name not mentioned) and asked what is the goal when manufacturing the next best speaker or upgraded version and his response was design, marketing and price. Never mentioned sound quality.
Yeah.  Bummer, huh?!
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline tmazz

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Re: Uh oh… I Think These Are Gorgeous - PAP
« Reply #32 on: May 13, 2022, 11:10:47 PM »
Evan, does this not surprise you?

We are in this hobby to make music.

Manufacturers are in the business to make money.  (OK, most of them.) back in the early days of high end most manufacturers started out as high end enthusiasts and as such had a love of the hobby and  prioritized sound first and foremost. But as the years went by most of those original owner that didn't close up shop have aged out of the business and sold out to new owners. and in most cases those new owners are most interested is how much profit can I make with relation to what I paid for the company. For them it is not a passion, it is an investment. If they can make money selling good sounding products that's great, but if they have to make a choice between better sound and higher profits on a new product 99% of the time the $s will take priority.

It's sad, but you see it happening in other industries as well. (Look at what happened to newspapers as the transitioned for family to corporate ownership.) It is just typical of the life cycle of a cottage or boutique industry, which is essentially what high end audio is.
Remember, it's all about the music........

• Nola Boxers
• Sunfire True SW Super Jr (2)
• McIntosh MC 275
• ARC SP-9
• VPI HW-19 Mk IV/SDS/SME IV/Soundsmith Carmen Mk II ES
• Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 DAC/Rasp Pi Roon Endpoint
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Offline tmazz

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Re: Uh oh… I Think These Are Gorgeous - PAP
« Reply #33 on: May 13, 2022, 11:33:34 PM »
I've come to the realization that no in home stereo will duplicate actual and thus am enjoying the stereo more. It really comes down to whatever floats your boat. If you like em than that's all that counts. You don't need others justification. It all comes down to you and you alone. Sure getting others opinions is fun but that's all it is "opinions" and you don't sit and listen to opinions, you listen to what you like. If you enjoy them than that is very cool that you can get off the merry-go-round, take a deep breath and relax. Feel sorry for the rest of us still searching.

Don

Don few quick stories right along those lines. We had a guy in our LI club who used to say "I gave up going to live concerts. They make my stereo sound bad."

I have a friend whose wife was a concert pianist (like played a Carnegie Hall concert pianist.) They had a full size Steinway Concert Grand piano in their living room. One day when I was over there she played some music for me that I happened to have a well regarded recording of. Being al full of myself I rushed home to listen to it on the "great" stereo that I have been building and upgrading over the course of many years. It didn't take more than 4 or 5 bars before I was ready to sit there and cry. The SQ coming out of my speakers did not even orbit the same sun as what I had heard in there living room. We can get somewhat close, but our stereos  just never never the same as what it sounds like in person. We can enjoy the music through our systems, but we just can't perfectly replicate it. But isn't enjoyment what it's all about anyway?

And one other thing along those lines. When I hosted my first GTG with the LI guys I started out by describing the system and the equipment it contained at the time and ended they little talk by saying "This is my system. I really like and enjoy it. I hope you do too. But if you don't, there's the door, nobody is forcing you to stay."  8)

And that sums up my philosophy about this whole hobby. I don't need to impress anyone nor do I seek their validation of any of my decisions. I built my system to please no one but myself. I get a lot of enjoyment out of it and really don't give a rat's @ss what anyone else thinks about it.

PS - I have the same attitude about what music I choose to listen to.
Remember, it's all about the music........

• Nola Boxers
• Sunfire True SW Super Jr (2)
• McIntosh MC 275
• ARC SP-9
• VPI HW-19 Mk IV/SDS/SME IV/Soundsmith Carmen Mk II ES
• Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 DAC/Rasp Pi Roon Endpoint
• DigiBuss/TWL PC&USB/MIT Cables

Offline tmazz

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Re: Uh oh… I Think These Are Gorgeous - PAP
« Reply #34 on: May 13, 2022, 11:35:15 PM »
I've come to the realization that no in home stereo will duplicate actual and thus am enjoying the stereo more. It really comes down to whatever floats your boat. If you like em than that's all that counts. You don't need others justification. It all comes down to you and you alone. Sure getting others opinions is fun but that's all it is "opinions" and you don't sit and listen to opinions, you listen to what you like. If you enjoy them than that is very cool that you can get off the merry-go-round, take a deep breath and relax. Feel sorry for the rest of us still searching.

Don
Welcome home, grasshopper  :thumb:  The reality is that there is no reality in reproduction.  Great illusions?  Sometimes.  Reality?  Never.  Enjoyment?  In almost every occasion when the music is the destination.  Your system is unique.  Your ears are unique.  Your musical tastes are unique.  Your room is unique.  Your preferred listening level is unique.  You, my friend, are definitely unique!   :shock:

Enjoy...

Cue Tom!   :rofl:

.....because  it's all about the music

(Got you covered Dave.  :D)
Remember, it's all about the music........

• Nola Boxers
• Sunfire True SW Super Jr (2)
• McIntosh MC 275
• ARC SP-9
• VPI HW-19 Mk IV/SDS/SME IV/Soundsmith Carmen Mk II ES
• Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 DAC/Rasp Pi Roon Endpoint
• DigiBuss/TWL PC&USB/MIT Cables

Offline ejk

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Re: Uh oh… I Think These Are Gorgeous - PAP
« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2022, 03:58:53 AM »
I just remembered Shadowlight has these speakers. I'm supposed to go in a few weeks for a listen.

Offline dflee

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Re: Uh oh… I Think These Are Gorgeous - PAP
« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2022, 08:49:34 AM »
"You, my friend, are definitely unique!"
Reminds me of an old joke I used to tell:
Growing up I thought I was special cause everyone kept telling me I was so unique until one day I realized they were actually saying I was so eunuch. Now I know why they looked at me so funny when I thanked them for the compliment.

Don
« Last Edit: May 14, 2022, 03:42:56 PM by dflee »
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Offline AJ Soundfield

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Re: Uh oh… I Think These Are Gorgeous - PAP
« Reply #37 on: May 14, 2022, 03:30:36 PM »
Frequency responses are 2 dimensional representations of a multi dimensional reality. 
Or, something like that... 😁
Those (164!) single point FRs (averages) simply make the (what should be) obvious point there are huge variations in studios making the recordings. even when the exact same speaker is used. Further amplifying the circle of confusion above.

cheers
AJ
Loudspeaker Manufacturer

Offline P.I.

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Re: Uh oh… I Think These Are Gorgeous - PAP
« Reply #38 on: May 14, 2022, 10:11:42 PM »
"You, my friend, are definitely unique!"
Reminds me of an old joke I used to tell:
Growing up I thought I was special cause everyone kept telling me I was so unique until one day I realized they were actually saying I was so eunuch. Now I know why they looked at me so funny when I thanked them for the compliment.

Don
Don, you kill me!  :rofl:
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline P.I.

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Re: Uh oh… I Think These Are Gorgeous - PAP
« Reply #39 on: May 14, 2022, 10:50:58 PM »
Frequency responses are 2 dimensional representations of a multi dimensional reality. 
Or, something like that... 😁
Those (164!) single point FRs (averages) simply make the (what should be) obvious point there are huge variations in studios making the recordings. even when the exact same speaker is used. Further amplifying the circle of confusion above.

cheers
AJ
AJ.  That is exactly right.  When we did recording desk (console) placement at SFCS, we did over 50 frequency shots in a o5' square location in the room.  We used a stereo pair of omni mics mounted in a styrofoam head that had been coated with latex and a short hair wig (yes, seriously) to determine where the listening position would be located.  That only took about 20 room shots.  The rest were doneto verify room treatment positions.  They were pretty much spot on.  What we did identify were secondary reflection points generated by the 60 channel (track) console on the front control room window, on the front walls between the window and soffit mounted Genelec monitors.

An optimum listening zone  must be served by room treatment.  Comb filtering effects producing suck outs in the frequency response are absolute killers when it comes recorded by Phil Edwards and mastered by Stan Rickert to  establish mix placement of not only side to side, but vertical and depth localizations.  Yes, vertical placement can be accomplished by phase relationships in the mix.  I have a recording:  Bernie Krause - " Citadels of Mystery" that is a go to reference.  I was fortunate to hear a second generation master at Stan Rickert's personal studio back in 1981.  On his system, listening to the recording was a religious experience.  He shared with me his "secrets-ish" of delay panning, EQ and frequency dependent compression that generated the vertical component.
It is impossible to get a faithful playback portrayal of any recording in a room with no, nada, zip, nyet, nein treatment unless you live in a cave with lots of stalactites and stalagmites to create a reflection free zone!

My too short time with Stan is one of my most cherished experiences in the recording art.  Hell, he taught me the secret of how to make a coincident pair of inexpensive mics emulate the sound of a vintage Neumann M47 that now sells for ~ $30K.  The new ones just don't get "that sound".

Sorry for chasing the rabbit down that trail and into the hole. 🤨
« Last Edit: May 14, 2022, 10:56:54 PM by P.I. »
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Offline steve

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Re: Uh oh… I Think These Are Gorgeous - PAP
« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2022, 11:03:28 PM »
Evan, does this not surprise you?

We are in this hobby to make music.

Manufacturers are in the business to make money.  (OK, most of them.) back in the early days of high end most manufacturers started out as high end enthusiasts and as such had a love of the hobby and  prioritized sound first and foremost. But as the years went by most of those original owner that didn't close up shop have aged out of the business and sold out to new owners. and in most cases those new owners are most interested is how much profit can I make with relation to what I paid for the company. For them it is not a passion, it is an investment. If they can make money selling good sounding products that's great, but if they have to make a choice between better sound and higher profits on a new product 99% of the time the $s will take priority.

It's sad, but you see it happening in other industries as well. (Look at what happened to newspapers as the transitioned for family to corporate ownership.) It is just typical of the life cycle of a cottage or boutique industry, which is essentially what high end audio is.

Amen Tmazz. Audio is the most notorious field, where anyone can make any statement, claim, market whatever they want, so as to make a buck. Martin DeWulf, criminal defense attorney wrote an article "truth be told" about the audio
industry, reviewers, shills, and marketing tatics.

For general consumption.

There are thousands of similar circuits from those claiming to be designers, with virtually none being natural, true to the live instrument reference. The one common thread is that they are inept with the science. There are "hundreds" of different aspects that need addressing when designing, not just a few equations.  Unfortunately, marketing tatics
always triumphs over science. However, there is no magic, or mystical applications.

Consumers, ever wonder why entities are constantly offering new models? If the designers understood all the science, they would not need to offer the new models. Maybe just a different look to appeal to customers. Another marketing technique, revolving door, go back to yesteryear to push huge buck items. How many electrolytic capacitors are in the
power supplies of each component, and how many are decoupling capacitors.

Fortunately, there are some higher quality recording components/systems (most are quite poor). Minimizing
the complex and poor designs in the recording studio has helped sonic quality immensely. Did you know, for instance, that a typical musical signal can go through a hundred transistors or more, whether in ics or discrete. That is besides all the other hundreds of very poor parts, cables etc used.  Here are links showing typical studio consoles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qahZ-whM6o       (check at 1-2 seconds)
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=photos+of+recording+studio&id=AD963D6387A8DA6DAB81F5DA3E7C1AA3991E7A6E&form=IQFRBA&first=1&disoverlay=1  (check any)

How is anyone to design any speaker of quality when the music is so manipulated.

The reason for "Sharing Top Notch Reference Music Links" in "Music Discussion" forum.  Although most links are YouTube Premium (a few from Tidal), one can still assess their systems quality to a pretty descent extent.

Yes, there are some really really excellent recordings available.

Thank you Tmazz for your excellent post and points.

cheers

steve
« Last Edit: May 16, 2022, 09:27:34 AM by steve »
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