Author Topic: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done  (Read 16317 times)

Offline P.I.

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #75 on: September 04, 2020, 03:59:00 PM »
   I have used the Radio Shack  Demag device for years. Did not need anyone to tell me if it worked. It works well. All my cables  get the treatment, twice a year. I use the Cardas/Ayre Demag disc for CDs before each listening session. All CDs have had the Radio Shack treatment.  Sounds better to me.


charles
:thumb:

Yep.  I have a RatSnack 44-233A that I used on the disc in the experiment.  Works GREAT!    You might want to give it a try on your gear that is not susceptible to demagnetization damage.  DON'T USE IT on cartridges, for the Love of God!  Try it on your cables as long as the are not the High Fidelity cables.  They use neodymium magnets for signal propogation, I guess.
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Offline P.I.

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #76 on: September 04, 2020, 04:05:45 PM »
Here is a reply I made to one of my friends (also a customer) concerning CD quality.  He, like me, agrees that CDs sound better than streamers.  Call us dinosaurs.  That is our story and we're sticking to it!  He is getting a new DAC and other goodies and I just built him an HDMI cable to try.

*****************

From Wiki -

"CD molding machines are specifically designed high temperature polycarbonate injection molders. They have an average throughput of 550-900 discs per hour, per molding line. Clear polycarbonate pellets are first dried at around 130 degrees Celsius for three hours (nominal; this depends on which optical grade resin is in use) and are fed via vacuum transport into one end of the injection molder's barrel (i.e., the feed throat) and are moved to the injection chamber via a large screw inside the barrel. The barrel, wrapped with heater bands ranging in temperature from ca 210 to 320 degrees Celsius melts the polycarbonate. When the mold is closed the screw moves forward to inject molten plastic into the mold cavity. When the mould is full, cool water running through mold halves, outside the cavity, cools the plastic so it somewhat solidifies. The entire process from the mould closing, injection and opening again takes approximately 3 to 5 seconds.

The molded "disc" (referred to as a 'green' disc, lacking final processing) is removed from the mold by vacuum handling; high-speed robot arms with vacuum suction caps. They are moved onto the finishing line infeed conveyor, or cooling station, in preparation for metallization. At this point the discs are clear and contain all the digital information desired; however, they cannot be played because there is no reflective layer.

The discs pass, one at a time, into the metallizer, a small chamber at approximately 10−3 Torr (130 mPa) vacuum. The process is called 'sputtering'. The metallizer contains a metal "target" – almost always an alloy of (mostly) aluminum and small amounts of other metals. There is a load-lock system (similar to an airlock) so the process chamber can be kept at high vacuum as the discs are exchanged. When the disc is rotated into the processing position by a swivel arm in the vacuum chamber, a small dose of argon gas is injected into the process chamber and a 700 volt DC electric current at up to 20 kW is applied to the target. This produces a plasma from the target, and the plasma vapour is deposited onto the disc; it is an anode-cathode transfer. The metal coats the data side of the disc (upper surface), covering the pit and lands. This metal layer is the reflective surface which can be seen on the reverse (non-label side) of a CD. This thin layer of metal is subject to corrosion from various contaminants and so is protected by a thin layer of lacquer.

CDs are printed in waterless offset.

After metallization, the discs pass on to a spin-coater, where UV curable lacquer is dispensed onto the newly metallized layer. By rapid spinning, the lacquer coats the entire disc with a very thin layer (approximately 5 to 10 μm[3]). After the lacquer is applied, the discs pass under a high-intensity UV lamp which cures the lacquer rapidly. The lacquer also provides a surface for a label, generally screen printed or offset printed. The printing ink(s) must be chemically compatible with the lacquer used. Markers used by consumers to write on blank surfaces can lead to breaks in the protective lacquer layer, which may lead to corrosion of the reflective layer, and failure of the CD.

************************

As with records, the quality of the stamper is paramount.  Much more so than with an analog record due to the magnitude of size. Get a CD from a first run and it wil KILL. Get one at the end of life of the stamper and it will, by definition, suck.  There are only ones and zeros (on/off) in the ADC and DAC brains.  The rest of the equation is prone to the weaknesses of all things analog.

What do you guys think?
« Last Edit: September 04, 2020, 09:35:47 PM by P.I. »
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Offline dflee

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #77 on: September 05, 2020, 08:18:59 AM »
8/13/20
Mark Cohn:
Not exactly a household name with the exception “Walking in Memphis”, hadn’t heard his work. I can see why Dave chose him because of that and that the album is well performed, produced and recorded. Too bad it wasn’t put on cd in that same manner.
Received the cd in three forms, one with an @, one with a # and one with a #+. @ and # are original cds with #+ being a cdr. There’s nothing with them to designate anything and the only understanding is to listen and evaluate so that’s what I did. And not just once, but three times all the way through with certain sections more. The three different methods were first through my laptop connected to a Liberty dac/amp and ZMF Auteur phones. Second was through my main system and Auteur phones. Lastly through the main system and speakers. Each listen produced a different comparison but the end result of each was the same conclusion. I will point out that I have tinnitus and while it is an absolute pain, it does help in that as sound congests or gets vague, I can’t make out certain instruments or vocals.
@ through laptop:
I thought was somewhat veiled. I had trouble understanding the vocals and at certain times the music seemed muddled. Piano was good until synth came in. it just didn’t seem like I was listening to separate instruments. Soundstage was still large but just one big mass.
# through laptop:
Sound was cleaner. Darker background which lead to better separation with the soundstage remaining rather large. Piano was good and synth added to the overall sound while maintaining the piano’s integrity.
#+ through laptop:
This one threw me. I wasn’t quite expecting what was on this cd. First the songs are not in the same order as the @ & # so I was caught off guard. Second, I’d swear this thing was remastered. It’s that different. It has both @ and # qualities but throws in a couple of additional aspects. The vocals were closer to @ and some instruments were in the # camp with others in the @ defensive. The word that kept popping into my head was Hot. It sounded like it was recorded using hot mikes and equipment. It did retain some of the smeared sound of @ throughout the cd.
Listening through the Accuphase C11 phone connection produced different sound on all three but lead to the same conclusion. And using the rest of my main system and through the speakers seemed to lessen the differences somewhat. The @ vocals were better and instrumentation was more forgiving. The # opened up and retained the vocal and instrumentation separation with decent stage. The #+ wasn’t quite so in your face but still had that close miked sound.
Overall this was an interesting experiment. I wasn’t able to do any blind listening since my wife was unable to help with cd selection but tried to maintain my thought process for each as individual. The best sound to me was # in clarity, blackness and separation. Can’t say I cared much for the other two iterations.

Don

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Offline Barry (NJ)

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #78 on: September 05, 2020, 07:04:43 PM »
8/13/20  ...snip...
Overall this was an interesting experiment. I wasn’t able to do any blind listening since my wife was unable to help with cd selection but tried to maintain my thought process for each as individual. The best sound to me was # in clarity, blackness and separation. Can’t say I cared much for the other two iterations.

Don

Thanks for the post Don, it was interesting to read your thoughts. I'm just really not a writer, so a couple of lines is all I'm good for ;)
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Offline rollo

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #79 on: September 08, 2020, 11:34:58 AM »
Here is a reply I made to one of my friends (also a customer) concerning CD quality.  He, like me, agrees that CDs sound better than streamers.  Call us dinosaurs.  That is our story and we're sticking to it!  He is getting a new DAC and other goodies and I just built him an HDMI cable to try.

*****************

From Wiki -

"CD molding machines are specifically designed high temperature polycarbonate injection molders. They have an average throughput of 550-900 discs per hour, per molding line. Clear polycarbonate pellets are first dried at around 130 degrees Celsius for three hours (nominal; this depends on which optical grade resin is in use) and are fed via vacuum transport into one end of the injection molder's barrel (i.e., the feed throat) and are moved to the injection chamber via a large screw inside the barrel. The barrel, wrapped with heater bands ranging in temperature from ca 210 to 320 degrees Celsius melts the polycarbonate. When the mold is closed the screw moves forward to inject molten plastic into the mold cavity. When the mould is full, cool water running through mold halves, outside the cavity, cools the plastic so it somewhat solidifies. The entire process from the mould closing, injection and opening again takes approximately 3 to 5 seconds.

The molded "disc" (referred to as a 'green' disc, lacking final processing) is removed from the mold by vacuum handling; high-speed robot arms with vacuum suction caps. They are moved onto the finishing line infeed conveyor, or cooling station, in preparation for metallization. At this point the discs are clear and contain all the digital information desired; however, they cannot be played because there is no reflective layer.

The discs pass, one at a time, into the metallizer, a small chamber at approximately 10−3 Torr (130 mPa) vacuum. The process is called 'sputtering'. The metallizer contains a metal "target" – almost always an alloy of (mostly) aluminum and small amounts of other metals. There is a load-lock system (similar to an airlock) so the process chamber can be kept at high vacuum as the discs are exchanged. When the disc is rotated into the processing position by a swivel arm in the vacuum chamber, a small dose of argon gas is injected into the process chamber and a 700 volt DC electric current at up to 20 kW is applied to the target. This produces a plasma from the target, and the plasma vapour is deposited onto the disc; it is an anode-cathode transfer. The metal coats the data side of the disc (upper surface), covering the pit and lands. This metal layer is the reflective surface which can be seen on the reverse (non-label side) of a CD. This thin layer of metal is subject to corrosion from various contaminants and so is protected by a thin layer of lacquer.

CDs are printed in waterless offset.

After metallization, the discs pass on to a spin-coater, where UV curable lacquer is dispensed onto the newly metallized layer. By rapid spinning, the lacquer coats the entire disc with a very thin layer (approximately 5 to 10 μm[3]). After the lacquer is applied, the discs pass under a high-intensity UV lamp which cures the lacquer rapidly. The lacquer also provides a surface for a label, generally screen printed or offset printed. The printing ink(s) must be chemically compatible with the lacquer used. Markers used by consumers to write on blank surfaces can lead to breaks in the protective lacquer layer, which may lead to corrosion of the reflective layer, and failure of the CD.

************************

As with records, the quality of the stamper is paramount.  Much more so than with an analog record due to the magnitude of size. Get a CD from a first run and it wil KILL. Get one at the end of life of the stamper and it will, by definition, suck.  There are only ones and zeros (on/off) in the ADC and DAC brains.  The rest of the equation is prone to the weaknesses of all things analog.

What do you guys think?



   If wants to experience a "Master" CD then by all means purchase one from Blue Coast Recordings. I as well prefer a CD over streaming. Using a Innuos Zenith Mk3 with outboard USB re-clocker. It sounds great no question. However in a head to head comparison with the Aqua La Diva transport and Formula xHD DAC the transport has an edge. At this level of Digital the Server is so close I can easily listen without the desire for a CD. However when I do play the same on a CD it is clear which is better.
  As far as new LPs today unless from a specialty house like Analog Productions they are Digital masters first. The main reason I own the Digital rig. Digital still has a way to go and that is where my money is going. The TT does its thing here playing LPs just not available on CD. Chew on that.


charles


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Offline Nick B

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #80 on: September 08, 2020, 10:05:32 PM »
Here is a reply I made to one of my friends (also a customer) concerning CD quality.  He, like me, agrees that CDs sound better than streamers.  Call us dinosaurs.  That is our story and we're sticking to it!  He is getting a new DAC and other goodies and I just built him an HDMI cable to try.

*****************

From Wiki -

"CD molding machines are specifically designed high temperature polycarbonate injection molders. They have an average throughput of 550-900 discs per hour, per molding line. Clear polycarbonate pellets are first dried at around 130 degrees Celsius for three hours (nominal; this depends on which optical grade resin is in use) and are fed via vacuum transport into one end of the injection molder's barrel (i.e., the feed throat) and are moved to the injection chamber via a large screw inside the barrel. The barrel, wrapped with heater bands ranging in temperature from ca 210 to 320 degrees Celsius melts the polycarbonate. When the mold is closed the screw moves forward to inject molten plastic into the mold cavity. When the mould is full, cool water running through mold halves, outside the cavity, cools the plastic so it somewhat solidifies. The entire process from the mould closing, injection and opening again takes approximately 3 to 5 seconds.

The molded "disc" (referred to as a 'green' disc, lacking final processing) is removed from the mold by vacuum handling; high-speed robot arms with vacuum suction caps. They are moved onto the finishing line infeed conveyor, or cooling station, in preparation for metallization. At this point the discs are clear and contain all the digital information desired; however, they cannot be played because there is no reflective layer.

The discs pass, one at a time, into the metallizer, a small chamber at approximately 10−3 Torr (130 mPa) vacuum. The process is called 'sputtering'. The metallizer contains a metal "target" – almost always an alloy of (mostly) aluminum and small amounts of other metals. There is a load-lock system (similar to an airlock) so the process chamber can be kept at high vacuum as the discs are exchanged. When the disc is rotated into the processing position by a swivel arm in the vacuum chamber, a small dose of argon gas is injected into the process chamber and a 700 volt DC electric current at up to 20 kW is applied to the target. This produces a plasma from the target, and the plasma vapour is deposited onto the disc; it is an anode-cathode transfer. The metal coats the data side of the disc (upper surface), covering the pit and lands. This metal layer is the reflective surface which can be seen on the reverse (non-label side) of a CD. This thin layer of metal is subject to corrosion from various contaminants and so is protected by a thin layer of lacquer.

CDs are printed in waterless offset.

After metallization, the discs pass on to a spin-coater, where UV curable lacquer is dispensed onto the newly metallized layer. By rapid spinning, the lacquer coats the entire disc with a very thin layer (approximately 5 to 10 μm[3]). After the lacquer is applied, the discs pass under a high-intensity UV lamp which cures the lacquer rapidly. The lacquer also provides a surface for a label, generally screen printed or offset printed. The printing ink(s) must be chemically compatible with the lacquer used. Markers used by consumers to write on blank surfaces can lead to breaks in the protective lacquer layer, which may lead to corrosion of the reflective layer, and failure of the CD.

************************

As with records, the quality of the stamper is paramount.  Much more so than with an analog record due to the magnitude of size. Get a CD from a first run and it wil KILL. Get one at the end of life of the stamper and it will, by definition, suck.  There are only ones and zeros (on/off) in the ADC and DAC brains.  The rest of the equation is prone to the weaknesses of all things analog.

What do you guys think?



   If wants to experience a "Master" CD then by all means purchase one from Blue Coast Recordings. I as well prefer a CD over streaming. Using a Innuos Zenith Mk3 with outboard USB re-clocker. It sounds great no question. However in a head to head comparison with the Aqua La Diva transport and Formula xHD DAC the transport has an edge. At this level of Digital the Server is so close I can easily listen without the desire for a CD. However when I do play the same on a CD it is clear which is better.
  As far as new LPs today unless from a specialty house like Analog Productions they are Digital masters first. The main reason I own the Digital rig. Digital still has a way to go and that is where my money is going. The TT does its thing here playing LPs just not available on CD. Chew on that.


charles

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Offline P.I.

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #81 on: September 10, 2020, 10:21:52 AM »
dave, i have one question - was the ripped cd-r also cryo'd and demag'd?

thanks!

doug s.
Yes and yes.  The stack of the Maxell black CD-R that I have were cryoed some years ago.  I demagged (demag'd - demaged - demagnetized or however it should be written ???) it after it was written.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2020, 09:49:12 PM by P.I. »
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Offline Triode Pete

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #82 on: September 10, 2020, 03:51:48 PM »
dave, i have one question - was the ripped cd-r also cryo'd and demag'd?

thanks!

doug s.
Yes and yes.  The stack of the Maxell black CD-R that I have were cried some years ago.  I demagged (demag'd - demaged - demagnetized or however it should be written ???) it after it was written.

Brother Dave,
Not to throw a "monkey wrench" into your analysis, but I've always found the "black" CD-R's to sound superior to the silver ones... just sayin'...  :shock:

Cheers,
Pete
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Offline P.I.

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #83 on: September 10, 2020, 09:48:14 PM »

Brother Dave,
Not to throw a "monkey wrench" into your analysis, but I've always found the "black" CD-R's to sound superior to the silver ones... just sayin'...  :shock:

Cheers,
Pete
Not a wrench at all.  On my system, with my ears, me too.   :thumb:
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Offline dpatters

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #84 on: September 12, 2020, 07:47:25 AM »
Just an fyi, I am the friend and customer that Dave mentioned previously that prefers spinning CDs vs streaming or listening to ripped files. I had purchased a dedicated music server with Roon, Tidal, and ripped all of my CDs to the hard drive. I used Tidal to find new music and it covered most of my vinyl collection. I have since gone back to spinning CDs and vinyl and I’m a happier camper. I’m using Jay’s Audio CD-2 MKII transport and the Jays Audio DAC Signature. I’m looking forward to getting Dave’s HDMI cable to take advantage of the I2S interface.

Don P
« Last Edit: September 12, 2020, 08:10:55 AM by dpatters »
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Offline Triode Pete

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #85 on: September 12, 2020, 08:24:33 AM »
Just an fyi, I am the friend and customer that Dave mentioned previously that prefers spinning CDs vs streaming or listening to ripped files. I had purchased a dedicated music server with Roon, Tidal, and ripped all of my CDs to the hard drive. I used Tidal to find new music and it covered most of my vinyl collection. I have since gone back to spinning CDs and vinyl and I’m a happier camper. I’m using Jay’s Audio CD-2 MKII transport and the Jays Audio DAC Signature. I’m looking forward to getting Dave’s HDMI cable to take advantage of the I2S interface.

Don P

Hi Don,
Yes, I agree with your assessment, especially if you were using Roon... Roon degrades the sound quality, even though the "experts" say it can't... Confirmed in-person over a year ago with some fellow audiophools... "If you got ears, you gotta listen!"

My $0.02,
Pete
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Offline P.I.

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #86 on: September 12, 2020, 12:11:17 PM »
Just an fyi, I am the friend and customer that Dave mentioned previously that prefers spinning CDs vs streaming or listening to ripped files. I had purchased a dedicated music server with Roon, Tidal, and ripped all of my CDs to the hard drive. I used Tidal to find new music and it covered most of my vinyl collection. I have since gone back to spinning CDs and vinyl and I’m a happier camper. I’m using Jay’s Audio CD-2 MKII transport and the Jays Audio DAC Signature. I’m looking forward to getting Dave’s HDMI cable to take advantage of the I2S interface.

Don P
Well, you have been a victrim of my success.

I recently finished a rebuild of my cryo oven, part of which was a new seal system I came up with.  The method I use is a lossey one where the LN2 dissipates through a controlled leak.  I use a needle valve to adjust the boil off.  I put your cable in at the beginning of the week (Tuesday morning).  Before the upgrade it would take about 72 hours for the nitrogen to boil off.  It is finally ready today.  I'll be sending you a tracking number in a few minutes.  I'll be very interested to see what you hear.   :)

CD's are still the deal for me.  I use Tidal because I didn't care for Qobuz SQ and being clunky to use with a Mac.

Try to find one of the old RatSnack bulk tape demagnetizers.  It really does make a difference for the better.  Also, try using a static trearment on the label side of the CD and see what you think.  Out here in the dry SW static is a big issue...  Zzzzzorch!
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Offline dpatters

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #87 on: September 12, 2020, 12:38:08 PM »
Thanks so much Dave! I have received tracking info. Still very humid here in PA. I’ll look into demag.

I think I’ll start a new thread on my experience so far with the Jays Audio stuff and my impressions of coax vs bnc vs hdmi.
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Offline P.I.

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #88 on: September 12, 2020, 05:07:02 PM »
Thanks so much Dave! I have received tracking info. Still very humid here in PA. I’ll look into demag.

I think I’ll start a new thread on my experience so far with the Jays Audio stuff and my impressions of coax vs bnc vs hdmi.
Sounds like a plan.  Since I don’t have any audio devices that use HDMI you are a beta dude!

That Jays Audio gear looks great!
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Offline rollo

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Re: Taking Digital Audio Extraction to a level no one else has ever done
« Reply #89 on: September 13, 2020, 08:54:49 AM »
Just an fyi, I am the friend and customer that Dave mentioned previously that prefers spinning CDs vs streaming or listening to ripped files. I had purchased a dedicated music server with Roon, Tidal, and ripped all of my CDs to the hard drive. I used Tidal to find new music and it covered most of my vinyl collection. I have since gone back to spinning CDs and vinyl and I’m a happier camper. I’m using Jay’s Audio CD-2 MKII transport and the Jays Audio DAC Signature. I’m looking forward to getting Dave’s HDMI cable to take advantage of the I2S interface.

Don P

  Don I have been preaching that for some time. CDs using a dedicated transport just sounds better. Depending on ones server it can be really close however still no Cigar. I prefer Qobuz to Tidal in sound quality. Dislike Roons sound. Using iPeng remote instead. Is not your I2S connection Ethernet ?
  Aqua just came out with a dedicated server that Aqua feels equals their dedicated transport.  High res recorded in high rez is the only reason IMHo other than general listening a streamer is needed. There is not much music recorded in Hi-Rez other than SACD.
   Do not like at all upsampled anything. If recorded in DSD then OK. Still spinning those shinny discs.

charles
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