AudioNervosa
Systemic Development => Digital Audio Devices => Topic started by: DaveC on May 02, 2013, 07:25:52 PM
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Thanks to geowak on audiocircle I found out about new upgrades for my Schiit Bifrost DAC:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=116363.msg1219446#new (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=116363.msg1219446#new)
There is a new "uber" analog board upgrade and a new USB board available. I ordered and just installed the uber upgrade. Here's a few comments, I'm really happy with the new upgrade and the DAC in general.
I finished the upgrade about 30 min ago... took all of about 10 min to install the new board.
It obviously hasn't burned in yet, but I can say without reservation that this is a pretty large improvement in many areas.
The sound is clearer so detail comes through better, imaging is more defined and precise, the instruments and vocals have more separation and air in between them. Dynamics are also slightly improved. It's just overall more engaging and fun to listen to.
Several months ago I replaced the RCA jacks with DH Labs pure copper units, and used Neotech cotton insulated EC-UPOCC wire to connect them to the board. At the same time I replaced the fuse with a HiFi tuning unit. Those upgrades were also worthwhile, although not as easy as the oem RCA jacks are PCB mount.
I will definitely get the v2 USB board as well since Jason said it was also a significant upgrade. How good can this little DAC get? It was great off the shelf, now it is pretty amazing... can't wait to see what difference the USB board is going to make!
Good Schiit for sure... :thumb:
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Since the uber upgrade went so well, I ordered the new USB board as well...
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I just installed the new USB board.
Wow! Like the uber board, this is a significant upgrade. It sounds like I have a new DAC, the music sounds more real and more natural. The uber board took the same signal and handled it a lot better, this is a significantly different signal in the first place which is why I said it sounds like a new DAC. I was happy with my Bifrost when I first got it, now I am blown away by how good of a source it is. The difference with the uber and v2 USB boards is night and day.
I have a feeling this little DAC is going to embarrass quite a few much more expensive units. Good job with this Schiit! :thumb:
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Dave glad you are enjoying the mods. Curious as to your total investment so far.
Maybe just maybe we now have an inexpensive DAC that really equals the big boys. I tend to doubt it as for years our club member have tried the wanna bees and they all fell short of the big boys.
I hope your correct in your assumption. Have my eyes set on an Esoteric K-03 now. Would love to do a direct comparison and learn
charles
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There's nothing like raining all over someone's parade, and it's one of the reasons I don't much like talking about gear on audio sites.
Dave, you sound like you're very happy with your upgrades. Trust what your ears are telling you and enjoy. :thumb: I should have my new Schiit Gungnir DAC any day and am looking forward to it.
--Jerome
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Jerome just stating our experience with inexpensive DACS. Did not mean to rain on his parade or insult him. If that is perceived I apologize. Would be quite interested in hearing one myself.
Digital has come a long way. The inexpensive DACs are very close to the finest out there. In direct comparison to each other it would be cool to hear how close or maybe better.
If its real close then we have a over performer to consider. Hey I would would love to spend less like everyone else. Maybe the Bitfrost can compete. I'm rooting for it, Dave knows good sound.
charles
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Jerome just stating our experience with inexpensive DACS.
charles
I think that's fine Charles when someone is asking for opinions and input, but that's not the case here. Dave was simply telling us how pleased he was with his Bifrost upgrades.
The thing about audio is there is always better to be found if your patience is long enough and your pockets deep enough. But why make that an issue whenever budget gear is discussed?
Later...
--Jerome
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Thanks Jerome, but I don't think Charles was meaning to put down my Schiit. :rofl:
His point is valid, there is a pretty decent sized (priced) gulf between budget DACs and "high end" units. The Bifrost got good reviews when it first came out and many people said it was pretty close to much more expensive DACs. The upgrades aren't a subtle change... the DAC is significantly improved, so I too share Charles' curiosity about how close it is to DACs in the $1k+ range. And I put it out there that the Bifrost may embarrass some much more expensive DACs myself.
Hopefully, Schiit's revised Bifrost will deliver the goods and make for a real top-end source for an unheard of low price. We need more gear in the audio industry that delivers true value for the money, which is one of the reasons I started a side-biz making cables... I don't believe any IC cable should cost more than around $500 and I truly believe I'm putting cables out there that will destroy the current cable pricing standards. I would put my "cost-no-object" cable for $299 up against any cable out there regardless of price. My Omega speakers (specifically the new RS5 driver) achieve that sort of value for the money too, they compare favorably to speakers that cost 10-30x the price.
Charles, if you are curious buy one and take advantage of Schiit's return policy if you aren't happy with it. Or, I have seen used Bifrosts going for around $200 w/o USB, then spend $70 on the upgraded uber board. Add the new USB for $100 if you need it. The upgrade boards take very little time or skill to install.
I originally spent $400 on a new "B-stock" Bifrost, they are either customer returns or just a way for Schiit to give a bit of a break since they never run specials or sales. The upgraded boards were $170, so I have $570 into my Bifrost now, a new one with uber board and USB is $550 I believe... so I'm doing ok, it's still a very affordable DAC.
I can't wait to hear Schiit's new cost-no-object top of the line DAC when it comes out, I think it's going to be very reasonably priced as well, maybe 2x the price of the Gungnir or so...
Jerome, I am interested to hear what you think of the Gungnir when you get it. Be patient on burn-in, my Bifrost took a while to sound decent... it was pretty bad right out of the box.
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Thanks Jerome, but I don't think Charles was meaning to put down my Schiit. :rofl:
Perhaps not, but I had a similar exchange in the Oppo BDP-105 thread, and I couldn't help but think "here we go again."
It's one thing to suggest alternatives when someone is trying to decide on a purchase, and it is quite another to plant the seeds of buyer's remorse and water them with FUD. Since you don't seem to mind I will bow out and leave you to your discussion.
Perhaps I should just stick to talking about music...
--Jerome
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Jerome, we are taking about a source component. IMO the most important piece in the system I believe "garbage in garbage out" . If one has invested serious money in a system why skimp on the source. Spending more money does not guarantee success, most times a lateral move.
Just like cartridges they make a world of difference. Is there much of a difference ? sometimes yes sometimes no. Most is a matter of omission as opposed to sonic issues.
I just have a pet peeve with digital in general and firmly believe that one should consider a more advanced DAC.
After thinking about it though you have a point. I am with you 100% on raining on parades as I have posted the same opinion at times.
It was not meant that way however perception is key. I will refrain from posting my pet peeve unless it is for a dedicated thread for such.
charles
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Hi Dave
As you have spent more time with the Schiit Bifrost that you upgraded what are your thoughts on it? Another audio friend of mine reviewed the Bifrost with all the uber upgrades and he was loving it. The best $540 shipped he ever spent according to him.
I do agree with your upgrading the IC jacks on the BiFrost. I look at the stock jacks on the BiFrost and they don't look like the greatest to me.
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I really like it! The uber board and gen2 USB board have really transformed this DAC, it sounds more natural and musical after the upgrades. I think the Bifrost is well worth trying out if you're looking at DACs in it's price range and possibly/probably beyond. :thumb:
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I really like it! The uber board and gen2 USB board have really transformed this DAC, it sounds more natural and musical after the upgrades. I think the Bifrost is well worth trying out if you're looking at DACs in it's price range and possibly/probably beyond. :thumb:
Dave,
Any more thoughts on your upgraded Bifrost? Have you had an opportunity to compare it to other dacs? Does it handle jitter reasonably well?
Nick
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Hi Nick, I posted some thought in your thread "my search for a new DAC".
The Bifrost is a good unit for the money, but the Auralic Vega was quite a bit better for 7x the price.
I did like the Bifrost better than the Teac, but I also like the HiFace better as well and it's only $300.
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Thanks to geowak on audiocircle I found out about new upgrades for my Schiit Bifrost DAC:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=116363.msg1219446#new (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=116363.msg1219446#new)
There is a new "uber" analog board upgrade and a new USB board available. I ordered and just installed the uber upgrade. Here's a few comments, I'm really happy with the new upgrade and the DAC in general.
I finished the upgrade about 30 min ago... took all of about 10 min to install the new board.
It obviously hasn't burned in yet, but I can say without reservation that this is a pretty large improvement in many areas.
The sound is clearer so detail comes through better, imaging is more defined and precise, the instruments and vocals have more separation and air in between them. Dynamics are also slightly improved. It's just overall more engaging and fun to listen to.
Several months ago I replaced the RCA jacks with DH Labs pure copper units, and used Neotech cotton insulated EC-UPOCC wire to connect them to the board. At the same time I replaced the fuse with a HiFi tuning unit. Those upgrades were also worthwhile, although not as easy as the oem RCA jacks are PCB mount.
I will definitely get the v2 USB board as well since Jason said it was also a significant upgrade. How good can this little DAC get? It was great off the shelf, now it is pretty amazing... can't wait to see what difference the USB board is going to make!
Good Schiit for sure... :thumb:
Dave,
Glad you like the Bifrost so much. I still have mine and still use it... enjoyment almost everyday. I still have a Benchmark DAC1 USB in another audio setup. For 1/2 the price of the Benchmark, the Schiit Bifrost Uber matches it's performance.
In fact, I find it to be more lively and musical. For the money, you would be hard pressed to beat it!!
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Over a year ago, I spoke with Jeff at Sonic Craft and he said he was doing some mods on the Bifrost. Costs were reasonable ...maybe $500 IIRC. Is anyone aware of a Sonic Craft modded Bifrost?
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Yes, Sonicraft does Bifrost mods but I think to the regular (non-uber) Bifrost...
I still like mine, it is a nice DAC for the cash, but I have had the Auralic in my system and in direct comparison, well... the Bifrost loses out badly. There are 2 main reasons.
- The soundstage of the Vega is wide, deep and steady. It is detached from the speakers to a greater degree than the Bifrost and makes my system sound LARGE, when in fact it is SMALL. :)
A lot of folks think the soundstage from small speakers need to be small, but the Vega proves otherwise. It may just be folks don't use a source of this quality on smaller less expensive speakers. With the Vega in my system the Omega single drivers perform at a ridiculously high level, and not just "for the price". The mids and highs are far better than average, and it takes some serious high-level drivers to top them that cost many times the price.
- The Vega's sound is absolutely free of any grain or harshness, it is relaxed and easy to listen to. In contrast the Schiit does produce some high frequency garbage typical of PCM audio and to be fair most DACs have this signature regardless of price. It may not be noticeable until you use a DAC that does not do this. It's not something that can be picked out, but it adds a tension to the music that is absent with the Vega.
These are the 2 major differences that I noticed. Together, they add up to a rather massive difference in experience and in my system the sound goes from pretty good to world class going from the Bifrost to the Vega.
The one positive thing about the Bifrost is it is neutral and very detailed. Just not perfect... of course price is 6-7x higher for the Vega. :lol:
I would like to try the new Sony HAP1, $2k for a server and DAC is a bit more realistic budget-wise, I have a hard time justifying the Vega... and Mike G also recommended the Yulong as being fairly close to the Vega for about 1/3 of the price.
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Good to know about the SonicCraft and their ability to upgrade a non-uber BiFrost. I checked their site yesterday after reading Nick B's post and didn't find anything noted on their site. They do have lots of nice parts.
Also Dave thanks for the the detail about the BiFrost. I'm hoping new member Williewonka can chime in. He has extensive experience with the BiFrost. I'm on overload with auditioning different DACs in the same price range in my system.
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Good to know about the SonicCraft and their ability to upgrade a non-uber BiFrost. I checked their site yesterday after reading Nick B's post and didn't find anything noted on their site. They do have lots of nice parts.
Also Dave thanks for the the detail about the BiFrost. I'm hoping new member Williewonka can chime in. He has extensive experience with the BiFrost. I'm on overload with auditioning different DACs in the same price range in my system.
There's never been any info re the Bifrost mod on Sonic Craft's website. I only learned of it from Jeff when I brought up the subject of dacs
Nick
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I also got feedback that the Sony HAP1 is a little better than the Auralic Vega's RCA outs but the Vega's balanced outs are better...
It seems like the Sony is a good value for what it does and the price is easier to swallow than ~$5k for an Auralic streamer + DAC.
My feeling is the Bifrost is good for the money but IDK... it's really pretty far from the Auralic even using it's RCA outs as I did when it was in my system. When I was at Mike G's he had a HiFace DAC that at $300 seems like it was very close to the performance of the Bifrost, and both were better than TEAC's DSD DAC.
I would be tempted to say a lot of these mid priced DACs like the Bifrost and others in the $500-1000 range aren't really worth it, and if I were buying today I think I would go with a lower end DAC like the HiFace or a higher end unit like the Sony or better. All the DACs in the under or near $1k range just seem too similar, or rather they are just lateral moves, and don't get you near the performance of higher end units so I'm not sure I see the value in spending $1k vs just a few hundred, as the performance may not be that much different and ultimately it won't really come that close to a higher end source anyway.
Sorry to be a buzz-kill on the lower end digital stuff, but those are my observations... and I still think my Bifrost is a decent DAC but today I would buy the HiFace for 1/2 the price and put the rest in the bank to save up for a better source.
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It's understandable that the Auralic Vega sounds better than the Schiit Bifrost. I think the Vega is $3500.00 and the Bifrost Uber is $600.00 for all the upgrades. That is a very big price difference. But keep in mind that few, if any, DAC manufacturers build a device and they offer upgraded boards. This is a plus, since the technology changes so rapidly. Schiit Audio has done this for the audiophiles who cannot drop a few thousand every two years for a better DAC.
If I were to spend that kind of money to get an Auralic, I might switch back to turntables and get a nice VPI and cartridge. There are many more choices for a source at that price point.
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Don't get me wrong, the Bifrost is still a very good DAC for the money, just not in an absolute sense.
I DO understand the comparison with the Vega is kind of ridiculous, but for me, it's the difference between a very good system and a truly world-class system. And if I have to pay $3k more to get there it's worth it FOR ME. If the Sony HAP1's RCA outs are better then the Sony would work for me at $2k, and I can add my own mu-follower tube output at my leisure as well, which is what I'm leaning toward.
That is why I said if I was buying right now and had $1k or less I would but the HiFace, that is so I could save the money for a much more expensive unit.
I also hear you about the changing technology, and I DO NOT have the cash to put thousands down for a new source every couple years, and this does make the issue more difficult. The Vega has been out for a while, I wonder how long until it's successor is announced? And Sony will have a 10 TB SSD hard drive in the unit out next year... ;)
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Having read through this thread it seems there is consensus on the excellent price/performance of the Bifrost.
I have the model with the Uber Upgrade and the USB input and I am streaming from my iMac using iTunes with Audirvana to bypass the crappy apple coding - all controlled remotely from my droid tablet using Retune app.
My own experience with this little DAC has also been excellent, especially after I upgraded the power cables and the interconnects. It's the little DAC that just keeps on giving.
I have upgraded the power cables and interconnects several times and each time the DAC has revealed more details, faster dynamics and wider and deeper image.
Here's a list of the various upgrades for anyone who's interested
Interconnects....
- initial cables were standard Stager Silver Solids with RCA plugs
- upgraded the RCA's to Eichman Silver Bullet RCA's
- Upgraded the RCA's to KLE Innovations Copper Harmony RCA's
- upgraded the RCA's to KLE Innovations Silver Harmony RCA's
- upgraded the interconnects to KLE Innovations Essense gZero3
Power Cables - I construct my own power cables using bulk cable from DH Labs and Furutech using Sonar Quest silver plated copper IEC and mains connectors from eBay.
Cables used
- DH Labs Encore
- Furutech FP-314Ag
- Furutech FP-314Ag (braided)
Upgrading the RCA's/interconnects provided noticeable improvements and for the price I consider them worth it.
The power cable improvements were not as noticeable at first - untill I braided them, which elevated the performance of the Bifrost to a whole new level.
Braiding the Furutech required the removal of the outer sheath and shielding to get to the internal conductors. Once braided, a protective expandable sleeve was used to cover the conductors.
This is now my default power cable design across my entire system - using the Furutech FP-314Ag for sources and the FP-3TS762 for the amp and power distribution centre.
I have also braided the DH Labs bulk power cables with similar success and for the price (1/3 the cost of Furutech) they are very competent performers, but the Furutech just has the edge
But you can take an even more affordable approach - I first used a piece of 12 gauge extension cord from the hardware store with gold plated copper Vanguard IEC/Mains connectors from eBay - I'm told by an acquaintance that also tried it that it outperformed his Gutwire power cable
The changes to cabling allows the outstanding abilities of this very affordable DAC to really shine.
What other DAC's have I tried?
• Wadia 121 decoding computer
• Mytek Stereo 192 DSD DAC
• Chord QuteHD DAC
I prefer the sound of the Bifrost - it's more dynamic and detailed than the Wadia and more natural sounding than the Chord. It compares very favourably to the Mytek and is around 1/3 the price.
My system...
- Custom Turntable with Audiomods arm and Denon DL-103
- Simaudio Moon LP 5.3RS phono stage
- Imac streaming via DH Labs USB cable into the Bifrost
- Naim 5i integrated amp
- Gershman Acoustics Sonogram Speakers with Essence gZero2 speaker cables
Apologies for the length of the post - Hope you find it useful
Regards