AudioNervosa
Group Therapy => NC Triangulation => Topic started by: richidoo on April 19, 2009, 06:48:31 PM
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Liquid Ear Sex, no RawDoo
Some fun surprises in store.
4pm
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I'm pretty sure I can make this... looking forward to surprises. :)
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Damn, that's Memorial Day weekend, isn't it? Unfortunately, I'll be out of town that weekend.
I trust you guys will fill me in (and share the surprise ;-)
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Count me IN!
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Memorial is 30th, the following weekend.
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Memorial is 30th, the following weekend.
Rich, I really wanted you to be right on this, but it seems it's Monday, 5/25. The good news is that I'll be at the beach. The bad news is that I'll miss your G2G.
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Funny! My calendar notes the traditional observance of Memorial Day which is May 30, but it is now observed on last Monday of May to make a long weekend. My calendar does not say "Traditional Observance" on 30th, it just says Memorial Day. I did not think to scour the calendar for any other Memorial Days that might be lurking. I mistakenly assumed that one is enough.
It was my intention to avoid Memorial Day weekend anyway, so the G2G is hereby moved to May 30. aka: the real Memorial Day.
Hopefully you will be back from the beach by then Mike. ;) And I hope Carl and Steve can still make it.
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I'm still IN...unless of course I'm in prison 8-[
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Yawn ... coming out of hibernation ... hungry for tunes ... hope to make it!
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Our G2G fast approaching on May 30. I'm looking forward to seeing everyone again.
Food will be pot luck. Everyone please bring something to eat/drink. I will handle plates cups, etc. Respond here with your contribution so we can avoid dupes.
Rick Craig is bringing Kabobs for the grill.
I will make a big green salad.
I have sixes of St Bridget Porter, Newcastle, Miller Lite, and some stray Dogfish, and Coronas. I need the space, so come thirsty.
I need to know how many people are coming, so even if you said yes a month ago, please chime in again. I think we have about 9 so far.
Gear on tap:
We have Spectron Musician III mk2 courtesy of hometheaterdoc, Audio Research VT100mk3 courtesy stereofool, i60 courtesy Sol Samet. Rick might bring some bookshelfs. I got a new AT150MLX cartridge for my TT, so you can bring some vinyl. New in the house is PS Audio Digital Link III with CullenCircuits stage 4 mods, being served by CullenCircuits modified Sonos player. I have my trusty Samsung CD spinner but could use a better digital interconnect if someone would like to volunteer. I have my Grounded Grid tube preamp and also my B1 preamp. The GGpre is excellent, but I prefer direct connect to either of these. Neither have remote control, so a fancy preamp might be useful. Grover is shipping the SCdot speaker wires today. I believe mdconnelly still has the interconnects?
The acoustic treatments that I planned to have installed by now are due to arrive this week. Hopefully I can get some of it installed by Saturday.
Other gear is welcome as usual, just mention it here so we can make a listening plan.
Rich
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as of right now, I am 99.9999999% sure I will be in attendance.
I will be bringing
a) the fabric for those that havent already gotten it from me. That includes the 60 yard roll that needs to be cut for folks.
b) as of right now, plan for me to bring a dessert. I will swing by Firebirds and see if they will sell me a whole "Big Daddy Chocolate Cake". For anyone who hasn't experienced this, it is to die for... best chocolate cake I've ever had in a restaurant.... and that's a lot of restaurants... if not that, then something else from a bakery around town....
c) I can bring cables and digital gear if folks are up for it? I can bring digital cables, speaker cables and interconnects if folks wish. some of it won't be broken in by then as it's new.
I've got most of my speakers out on loan at the moment. So I'm free to bring along the Oracle DAC1000 if folks want to hear that. I'm also attempting to try out some additional stuff for audio PC. If I have that, want me to bring along?
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Thanks Shane! Sounds yummy.
We can cut the fabric here. Wires are always welcome. I personally would like to hear the Oracle DAC compare to my new Cullen DAC, but that's not essential. We will probably compare the Cullen DL3 to stereofool's stock version, and the Cullen Sonos to the stock version. As usual we will do our swap nerosis early, then settle in for some tunes. Bring whatever you want to show and tell. We just might not get to play it all. But if there is curiosity, anything goes.
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Rich,
Did Grover find any problem(s) with the speaker cables you returned to him after last G2G
[and provide explanation(s) for any probelm(s)] ???
Last I knew, the Grover speaker cables were at "SC" and no version designated SCdot except for ICs.
Could you clarify if you otherwise...
And remember Weez for us both!
Thanks,
Roger
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I'm still a comin' :D/:D!!!
I can bring the REF1...if you want. Plus, I can bring a stock PS Audio DACIII, and some JPS SC 3 cables.
If you want me to bring anything else, just let me know.
I'll have to think about what food I can do ahead of time, since I'll be working that morning.
By the way...is this still at 4:00PM???
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Yup, I've still got the Grover SCdot ICs and will certainly bring them along unless someone wants to check them out prior to the G2G. Not sure what time I can get there yet but plan to be there just the same. Shane, I'd love to see that Oracle DAC.
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Roger, Grover did not mention any changes to the SC wires, he just said they are shipping. You are correct, latest speaker wire spec is "SC" (last I heard.)
Yup 4pm. How bout a nice egg salad, Steve? You can leave in the car while you work that morning, then it will already be warmed up. :drool: Thanks for the offer to bring Ole Smoothie, but you're already bringing a lot of stuff. I'll let you know if we need it. Thanks...
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If I may make a suggestion, pick one thing you want to compare. I think Rich is into hearing amps and DAC's lately and I think it'd be best if we can say for sure, we'll compare one of those. If we prioritize amps (for example) I think we'll be able to take away more from the experience. Then if we have time, compare DAC's.
I'm willing to bring my amp (MC402), preamp (Sol-modded C-220), and/or Scott Nixon USB DAC. I also have a pair of Shane's SC3 IC's that have been burning in for a few weeks non-stop. They are the best IC's I've ever heard.
Also, I plan to have a DAC-off ;) at my house as the first comparison party in mid-to-late June. I figure starting at the source is a good idea for comparisons in the new room.
The Mac pre is a great all-arounder to me. I can come early to see if it's transparent enough for comparisons.. or hold off.. but what people bring is dependent on what we (or really Rich) want to do.. Just let me know and I'll bring gear accordingly.
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Thanks Carl, that is wise advice. It is easy to overbook, then it's a shame if heavy gear does not get airtime.
I am curious to hear if my Cullen modded DAC stands up to other DACs in the group. So RichardS is bringing his Northstar DAC, Shane is bringing Oracle, and Steve is bringing his stock version of the same DAC as mine. Carl, if you are curious how the TubeDAC fits in, please bring it. The Altmann will soon be for sale, so if anyone wants to hear that they may.
mdconnelly, can you bring the Oracle transport? It will nice to have a reference transport for the comparison, and to hear the Oracle stack together once again.
RichardS is bringing a very special digital cable, Harmonic Tech Cyberlight Photon. That should make some interesting conversation. Mike, please bring your analysis plus digital (aka big yellow), or Carl, or whoever owns that thing now, I can never remember. Shane might bring a JPS digi. I don't have a high end digital cable so it will be interesting to see how my cheapo stands up to the best. That should cover us for the digital source.
Carl Shane and Steve please bring your SC3 RCA interconnects. Can someone please bring one set of balanced XLR JPS interconnects too, if anyone has any, for direct connecting DACs to amp in balanced mode. (mac and AR only) :drool:
Carl please bring the C220 so we can do remote control source switching. Sam Tellig is reviewing it next month and will slobber all over it as usual. Too bad he can't hear it as God intended. And yes, please bring the MC402 too. It will be great to compare a couple amps to the Spectron while it is here. I love the Spectron sound, but it is intense and a little quirky, so it might not be best choice for the meet. It will great for Sol to hear a variety of world class amps compared to his i60 which is nearing completion of voicing.
It's a lot of stuff, but I know we can get through it if we don't linger when we don't likey. I think we will swap and compare, make note of our favorites, build a concensus system by 7pm, then relax and listen after that with minor swapping, like we usually do. Starting early helps get a lot more done. We are doing pot luck, so my shopping and cooking is eliminated, so I can relax and enjoy. :) The grill and oven are available if needed.
Rick Craig may bring speakers too. His latest stuff with RAAL tweeters is awesome. So that is plenty enough to listen to for the day.
I have the FG panels airing out in the garage with an ozone generator. I will lay them out in the sun tomorrow. Hopefully the smell will die down by Friday so I can bring them inside. But they will need more airing before being covered. It looks like a yellowish exterior spray, it stops mold.
Thanks everyone! I think we have about 13 people now.
Rich
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I'll bring the Oracle CDT1000 transport and my Grover digital and XLR balanced ICs. I think Carl owns that yellow digital IC. See you then!
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Rich,
I will bring all of my JPS SC3 cables (except speaker...unless you want those too). I've got plenty of SE & Balanced, I even have a lower range (SC+) digital cable that I will bring too.
This is going to be FUN...busy, but FUN :drool:!
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Looks like I'll be bringing my entire system minus the speakers.. You sure you don't want those too? ;)
I'll bring a pair of SC3's on loan from Shane... and will sadly be giving back. :( I need to recover from some expenditures or I'd buy them.
In any case, that's all for now.. See you Saturday.
-C
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Thanks everybody.
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Our G2G fast approaching on May 30. I'm looking forward to seeing everyone again.
Food will be pot luck. Everyone please bring something to eat/drink. I will handle plates cups, etc. Respond here with your contribution so we can avoid dupes.
Rick Craig is bringing Kabobs for the grill.
I will make a big green salad.
I have sixes of St Bridget Porter, Newcastle, Miller Lite, and some stray Dogfish, and Coronas. I need the space, so come thirsty.
I need to know how many people are coming, so even if you said yes a month ago, please chime in again. I think we have about 9 so far.
Gear on tap:
We have Spectron Musician III mk2 courtesy of hometheaterdoc, Audio Research VT100mk3 courtesy stereofool, i60 courtesy Sol Samet. Rick might bring some bookshelfs. I got a new AT150MLX cartridge for my TT, so you can bring some vinyl. New in the house is PS Audio Digital Link III with CullenCircuits stage 4 mods, being served by CullenCircuits modified Sonos player. I have my trusty Samsung CD spinner but could use a better digital interconnect if someone would like to volunteer. I have my Grounded Grid tube preamp and also my B1 preamp. The GGpre is excellent, but I prefer direct connect to either of these. Neither have remote control, so a fancy preamp might be useful. Grover is shipping the SCdot speaker wires today. I believe mdconnelly still has the interconnects?
The acoustic treatments that I planned to have installed by now are due to arrive this week. Hopefully I can get some of it installed by Saturday.
Other gear is welcome as usual, just mention it here so we can make a listening plan.
Rich
Hi Rich:
I have not been home much later nor have had computer access for a couple of days. I would definitely like to attend the G2G if there is still space. Have no new gear as I have been in an audio lull and am waiting to build/install good panels.
It would seem that salad, main course and dessert are covered. If Vera does not have to drive to Charleston, SC on Saturday I will ask her to make an appetizer. Heck, just plan on me for an appetizer!
BR
Ken
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Hell, it's not a party without you Ken! Glad you can make it. Appetizers sounds great, Thanks to Vera.
I think the smell is letting up. Tomorrow I'll try to get some into place for the g2g, but it won't look pretty.
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Have fun today.....and don't forget the photo's.....thanks !! :beer:
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You got it, Mr. Guitar-Cowboy. :lol:
My car's loaded up with gear.. I'll throw in a camera if I can find it... heading over now..
-C
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Everybody had a fun time. Lots of good sounds, good food. Thanks to everyone who came to the G2G, and to those who brought food and gear. I learned a lot, thanks.
Rich
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late and sleepy....
but a few words... and it will be a few for me for once...
weird vibe for a Rich get together... most of the time people wanted to eat and talk and not compare and listen to gear... which is fine because it meant catching up with old friends, etc... but we really didn't listen as much as in past meets, yet I was there a whole lot longer than in past meets...
Cullen modded PS Audio DAC - must need more break in... got beaten pretty soundly by stock version of same DAC... neither were any good. Tried to be dynamic and ended up being thin, forward, and harsh... i wouldn't own either one... Richard's Northstar DAC, while too laid back in comparison to Oracle, was a better choice than either PS Audio piece... the modded one especially was ear bleeding in a couple areas. drop in the Oracle and it did with ease what the PS Audio was hoping to do and failed miserably at.
Spectron amp - sucked and completely unlistenable in the context of Rich's setup. I honestly have no idea how other folks stayed in the room with it... it was awful from outside the house in the driveway. I suppose it could work in a very different setup... but a system that is neutral and resolving is NOT the setup for this amp... it needs juicy and warm stuff around it to make it even remotely tolerable and I'm not sure even that will fix my issues with it. I can see why Rich liked it in the short term.. but I think it would wear off pretty quickly even for him...
Sol's amps - The I30 is a winner even if it doesn't have the last word on control of the bottom end. It is something that I would recommend to folks to buy. Great job on it! The 60 watter.... well... honestly it sucked... it might work in another system... but not for me. The 15 watter same thing. Seriously good job on the 30 watter, though.
I know I'm biased, but nothing came close to the Oracle DAC1000 tonight. I'd like to find a good alternative to it. But I didn't hear it tonight with what was there. It's not cheap (let's be honest, a good chunk of the price is the pretty case). But it sounds good. Different strokes and all that...
Thanks for hosting again, Rich. It was great to see everyone.
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Rich,
Once again, thanks for your hospitality!!!
As always, it was GREAT seeing everyone...indeed I did relatively little listening, this time. I must have been one of the ones 'yaking' more. I can't say that I heard anything spectacular today, which may be why I didn't listen all that much.
I agree with Shane...the Spectron was pretty much unlistenable...much too bright for my poor ears. That also applies to a number of items playing today...which may explain why I wasn't drawn into the listening area, except for a couple of times.
Sol, your 30 watter is a winner. It's amazing that it can drive Rich's BE 20's with such ease and sound so good. Well done!!
Well, my eyelids are about to drop.
G'night!
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Rich:
It was one hell of a G2G and thank you so very much for hosting. Shane and Steve did a great job of summing-up the night - yes, I was one of the guys more interested in talking with others than listening.
I did get to hear the Spectron Amp. Do you know that feeling or sensation you get when you taste a great beer on a hot day? Well that describes the way I felt when Carl's big MacIntosh was switched in place of the Spectron. The Spectron sounded bright and there was an edge to the voices of singers. The big Mac presented the music in a relaxed style that for me was the best I heard all evening! If the Spectron represents the best of the D Class Amps, I don't want any of them!
This was the second time I have heard Sol's 30 watt amp and like the others have said it is a great product. Sol, you should sell a bunch of these!
I would like to comment that the food was just fantastic! I had a great time.
Ken
PS. Others will have to comment on the new Grover Speaker Cables as I was not present when they were evaluated!
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I am sorry I had to miss this one. I was really looking forward to hearing Shane's Oracle DAC1000 (and catching up with everyone!).
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I had to leave early but I made it a point to compare Grover's SC's, the JPS 'Q's and JPS SC3's. The comparisons were done after switching out all the other cables (IC's, PC's, Dig, etc.) to the best we had.. All top-level JPS, Black Sand, etc.
In this setup, without another reference, the Grover's sounded OK to me... until more complex music that excited upper mids (harmonizing singers) started... It was like fingernails on a chaulk board then. Once that area was exposed, it sort of stuck out and I could hear that problem.
I put in the 'Q' model JPS cables and the upper-mid congestion problem was eliminated and everything else sounded better as well.. they were quiter and let the music happen in a more natural way.
Then I put in the SC3's and those same refinements got better. It was nice to hear the same results at Rich's that I had in my system going from Q to SC3... That's helping me get more from the comparisons we do at G2G's.
One thing to keep in mind is that this is a fairly forward system with the Usher's and the Spectron.. It's a great way to hear detail and analyze specific things.. but for overall musical enjoyment/entertainment, I'd find it fatiguing long-term.
I wasn't there long enough to get an overall impression of the DAC but I did notice detail retrieval I had not noticed before at Rich's. When we replaced the amp in play from the Spectron to the Mac, the upper mids became more natural and vocals sounded more like reality to me. However, I thought the sound was a little lean or 'airy' and I couldn't really put my finger on it. It was still good but wasn’t ‘all that’. It sounds like that in my room too so, I’m not sure where the issue is.
Overall thoughts…
One thing that I wish we had at this meet was a big power conditioner. I forget Rich is using standard outlets on standard house wiring. I think some of the grunge I was hearing might have been easily addressed with it.. But maybe not having it allowed some warts to be revealed that otherwise wouldn’t.. I don’t know..
I’m planning to host the next G2G in mid/late June, probably around the 20th. I’ll probably put listening/comparing times into some time slots.. so from 4-5 we compare x, from 5-6 we compare y, and from 6-8 we break for dinner.. then from 8-10 we listen, etc.. something like that. I’ll try it out and see how folks like it. My goal with any meet is to learn and have fun… And I do that talking with you guys as well as listening.. so I think it’s important to make time for both.
Thanks to everyone who brought food! Wow, that was quite a spread. Thanks to Rich for being such a great host as always.
Thanks to everyone who attended and shared their ideas… Looking forward to the next one!
-Carl
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anyone else on the grover sc. speaker cables?
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Spectron is capable of extreme performance. People who value absolute tone over relative tone will appreciate the correct tone and unlimited power. Rock just has to sound good, classical has to sound correct. There is a big difference. If you don't listen to modern symphonic music or chamber music then you will not appreciate the spectron. Few amps are as accurate and powerful, none for this price. I did not keep it because the Ushers and the spectron together are just too much. Both are medicine for a slower system, together they are OD.
I think the stock PSAudio DAC was as good as the Northstar DAC in AB comparison. Steve said it took a long time to break in and was unlistenable before that. I'm hoping it will break in as well as Steve's did, and then we can compare them back to back. Due to cabling limitations we could not A/B them.
The new Grover full range SC. wire is a big improvement over the biwire from last month. It is more coherent, more musical, more engaging, more detailed. The Ushers are extremely revealling which is a real challenge to their owner. By the time we got the speakers sounding really good they were being served by about $25k of electronics and wires. That's to be expected for $20k speakers but it's out of my budget. I would not fault the Grover wires for lack of synergy with the Ushers and Spectron. I listened to them all week and did not have a bad reaction. I did notice the emphasis on highs and upper mids, but I think that would be valuable on a slower speaker like the Legacys. The music is clear and balanced top to bottom as typical with Grover wires. The bass was somewhat less controlled than the 5ga JPS SC3 and the JPS Q biwire. For the price of the Grover's I think they are a good value. I would like to hear them with less exotic/ warmer speakers. For the Ushers the similar priced JPS Q was better to my ears.
I loved the Oracle DAC. It was obviously better than all the other DACs. Especially in the harmonic details, and subtlety. It was dynamic, but not brutish. Gentle and accomplished. Preamp and DAC of such high quaity combined together into one beautiful sculpted metal box seems like a decent value for the price.
We did not compare transports or digital wires. I will break in the Cullen Sonos to see if it improves, but it too was outshined by the stock sonos when used with a DAC that corrects jitter. Stock Sonos is less refined and clear, but tonally more correct. But the mod Sonos is brand new, and not yet ready for direct comparison to a transport like the Northstar. I look forward to making these comparisons next month at Carl's premier G2G.
Thanks to everyone who brought gear, food and those who drove in from far away to attend. It was great to meet Tim and Jared from AC. I was able to enjoy a beer and some wine and listen, so the pot luck part worked out for me, thanks to all.
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Spectron is capable of extreme performance. People who value absolute tone over relative tone will appreciate the correct tone and unlimited power. Rock just has to sound good, classical has to sound correct. There is a big difference. If you don't listen to modern symphonic music or chamber music then you will not appreciate the spectron. Few amps are as accurate and powerful, none for this price. I did not keep it because the Ushers and the spectron together are just too much. Both are medicine for a slower system, together they are OD.
I guess I slammed this amp pretty hard this morning! Last night it had great control over the bass but the music it presented was bright and the mids did not sound correct. I guess there are systems where it would work okay but I would certainly advise anyone to try it before you buy one. Maybe you will love it but I have heard several amps that I would personally prefer in that price range. I guess that is what makes this hobby fun - different equipment for different folks and varying music tastes!
Ken
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anyone else on the grover sc. speaker cables?
I've recently had a chance to listen to a pair of Grover's SC dot prototype speaker cables, in my own home system.
Most of my main cabling is the JPS Superconductor 3...so that is what I had to use for comparison.
First, I listened to a number of tracks (with my present cables), for about 1 day, then I switched to Grover's SC dots. Going from the JPS to the Grovers did not result in an immediately noticeable difference. In my system they threw a large soundstage with plenty of air, they were detailed, clean sounding and gave a smooth presentation.
I listened to the Grover's for a couple of days...with no ill effects on my ears. His previous SC Bi-wire, that we listened to at last months G2G, immediately sounded harsh and hurt my ears. Next, I switched back to the JPS's and only then could I pinpoint some differences, albiet relatively small ones.
After said switch…I could hear slightly more air, and there was better articulation and detail. Also, slightly more sustained note decay, a little better purity and individualization of notes.
In corresponding with Grover, he reported that Rich had the newer and better sounding SC dots. So, Rich and I might sit down sometime in the next few weeks and give each a listen, compare and try to make some notes, as to what we hear with that specific comparison.
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Hmmmm For $7190 retail on that Spectron you can have some real friggin neat tubes going.
Maybe a Pass amp? I guess as I have embraced this hobby for years now, price ain't everything.
I wish I could make another GTG. It was a blast last time and meeting everyone.
Come to think of it we didn't do much serious listening last time.
Since the wifey lost her job (Hanes BS!!) in November she got a new one just as good in Charlotte.
Soooo, the ranch is up FS now the last 3 weeks.
Hey, it's an adventure I tell ya. :roll:
Maybe, just maybe, I can make Carl's in June.
Where's the Picts? No show and tell?
BTW, very much enjoy reading this laid back and civilized board.
Enjoy!!
Den
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Good luck with the sale Den, and new life in Charlotte! Hope to see you at Carl's
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Not being there, I'll comment as an outsider. The Ushers are nothing even approaching laid back. Every time I've heard them sound good was with TOP NOTCH tube amps. Sounds to me like they and the Spectron lean in the same direction - which is never a good idea. Forward speakers, laid back amps. Laid back speaks, forward - dynamic amps.
I just hate to see the Spectron take a serious hit based on 1 combination/comparison.
Bryan
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Had a great time. Thanks to Rich and his understanding family....
While everyone was mesmerized by Shane's chocolate cake, I got to spend a lot of time in the sweet spot. I liked the MacIntosh best on the Ushers, but wasn't really put off by any of the amps. Nothing really special stood out with the Mac, but with it in the chain, it was really easy to forget about critical listening and just sink in.
While I appreciate the other's complaints of the Spectron, it also had its strengths, namely, tight and deep bass and clean and detailed highs. The music grabbed your attention. OK, certain piano notes were a little harsh, and maybe Miles' trumpet, which the Spectron refused to make pretty, but it wasn't unlistenable to me, and I especially enjoyed the Kenny Barron 'Live at Bradley's' disc. Sol's 30-watter drove the big Ushers surprisingly well with acoustic jazz. I really like the Ushers. You feel like you're hearing everything, though they're certainly a tough match-up. One of these days Rich will find the right amp.
The DAC shoot out wasn't really fair with Shane's Oracle ringer. It's a really special DAC. The North Star sounded a little soft, thin and recessed in comparison, but was tonally smoother and more delicate, and easier on the ears than the two PS Audios. Then again, there's a big price discrepancy between all the DACs, so it's not really fair. I'd like to hear the comparo with the stock PS Audio once the modded one breaks in. I was disappointed that the Harmonic Tech Photon wouldn't lock between the North Star transport and the Oracle, so we couldn't compare it. IMS, it sounds fantastic.
FWIW, the digital gear was plugged into a BMI Shark line conditioner for most of the evening. I'm sure we can bring other conditioners to the next meet. And lots of good power cords were in use.
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I'll echo Richard's assessment that it wasn't unlistenable to me. My take-away was that it was just too much of a good thing for me to enjoy long-term. I agree the Spectron is a mighty amp and could be perfect paired with the right speakers.
The Mac amp is indeed easy-to-listen-to.. the details are all there but they're presented with delicacy/finesse that I like.. So, I can choose to anaylze or listen.. I like having that choice. With the Spectron, on the Usher's, I was listening to the details.. and that's that.
Another thing I noticed is the Spectron did not color the music (that I could detect). So, it was actually a good setup for comparing DAC's. I wish I could've been there for that.. I could've gagged Shane so we could have open, unbiased dialog. ;)
-C
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there was something about the combination of things together that put it over the edge for me. I couldn't get past the thing that was causing a very violent physical reaction and flight instinct to run out of the room...
it was *really* bad when we first started and the Sonos was feeding the modded PS Audio DAC into the Mac pre into the Spectron with Grover speaker cables... but it went to another level when the resolution was turned up by feeding the Northstar transport into the Oracle into the Spectron. Just a really bad grouping match of gear that was exciting something that made nails on a chalkboard seem like the most soothing sound I'd ever heard. I couldn't get past that to hear anything or judge anything else. Obviously a number of other folks could. What it was that was bothering me wasn't affecting others as much... ohhh how I wish I was like everyone else at that moment. in the context of a completely different system, the spectron may work extremely well.... I just couldn't get to listen like others did. I experienced the same sort of reaction here at my place when I listened to the spectron briefly. I didn't notice it as much because my main listening room is so awful at the moment that I was distracted by the ringing of the room moreso than what the gear was doing (and the volume was kept down quite a bit so as not to be reminded of that fact quite as much).... and the speakers were warmer sounding and less revealing than the Be-20s...
I want to state for the record that while they are not perfect by any means (I've yet to find a speaker that was) and have a few issues, the Be-20s are anything but forward sounding speakers. I've never found the limits of their resolution capabilities for the midrange and tweeter (and it can even be improved upon with better crossover parts and internal wiring). They can be pretty ruthless sometimes in that they let through whatever the gear in front of them is doing. But by themselves, they are surprisingly neutral in my opinion even in stock from the factory form. They have a dynamic impact that can be hard to make your brain wrap around. They have the resolution, speed, and detail of a good ribbon, but they have attack and actual weight and impact whereas a ribbon doesn't hit you with any kind of impact like these drivers do. If anything, this meet just further re-inforced how much I miss these speakers and how much I want them back.... they do things at their price point that other speakers only dream of being able to accomplish. The midrange and tweeter drivers are very special, imo.... If a system sounds forward with the Be-20s as the main speaker, there's something going on with the associated gear to make the sound forward. I've never found it to be the speakers themselves. Just my opinion having lived with them for quite a while.
I really think we need to hold Rich down and make him write the check to pay for an electrician to run some dedicated lines ;) hehehe..... and if he sprung for the JPS romex, I think he'd actually thank me for it later despite it's upfront cost... there definitely was some grunge in the system that should go away with better power (it was better once Richard brought his unit and we plugged the digital gear into it)... I think it was masked at a few of the previous meets because he was using Carl's conditioner, right? My dedicated circuits go in later this week. I can't wait...
Thanks again for hosting Rich... Much appreciated.... if nothing else it meant leftover cake for me yesterday :) hehehe....
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God I hope you didn't eat that whole thing! I bet you took home 7 pounds of cake, which is only half of it. Maybe if you stuff some of into your ears next time? :rofl:
I agree with you 100% Shane, about the Ushers and the power quality. The Equitech was here last time. It hummed so I returned it to Carl. I will be getting balanced power conditioner again whe it rises in priority. As for dedicated line, I already have one in there, need to move it to the fireplace wall. A SINGLE run of JPS power wire would be very cool too. All in good time. Last time we had the Snappers, but sadly they had to go for tube reliability and lack of bass control compared to SS.
The room is by far the biggest problem now. And after a year of incessant negotiations, my wife has finally given in and said do whatever you want, so I am going forward. I have 200 sq ft of bass trap, 100 ft of corner reflection treatment, and 500 sq feet of midrange absorbtion/diffusion in the garage ready to install. I was hoping to get some of it in this g2g, but it couldn't happen. It will take a while to build it to living room standards and install it so it can be easily retracted for non audio social events. But it will be worth it.
Bryan nailed it, the Spectron / Usher synergy was not good. Too much of a good thing. Even the Grover wires too, they would be much more welcome in a system needing some brightening. For my classical music the spectron has OK synergy with Ushers, but I have to listen around the high freq "attitude" that drives Shane to flee. With my music the Mac is too boring on the Ushers, too much harmonic detail is missing and high freq tone is distorted. On Carl's Piegas it seems a lot more lively, maybe because the mac is much higher up into its power band.
I don't hear bat frequencies like you Shane but we are grateful to have you as canary in a coal mine to guard against high freq trash. I will never buy an amp that makes you or any of the other bats, Sol, Henry and Ken think twice about coming over. Thankfully I don't have that problem. Like RichardS I can listen past that, but it is slightly annoying over a long time. On a slower speaker I think it would be less of a problem. Like you said, the Ushers will reveal the recording but also, every weakness of the electronics. In that sense, the speaker is a little out of my league, I knew it would require a whole new system and I'm working at it, but I'd hoped to be caught up with it by now. The problem is there aren't many SS amps with the power, detail and finesse that I want for the money I have. This is why audiophiles seeking absolute tone for classical music on a budget (<$5k) use tubes. If you need more power like the Usher's bass demands, then tubes are out and you are into truly high end SS amps, like Monads, Pass XA.5, Bolder, to get the unmolested tone of tubes plus the unlimited current of SS. ClassD is so appealling here with no crossover distortion and unlimted current, and there are still more to try, but I don't hold out much hope now for class D after the Spectron didn't gel. Maybe the new NAD. I love the Ushers and I'm committed to finding a path through but it is a challenge. You gotta give me credit for starting to try new things, not just blablabla forever. It will take a few tries.
Thanks to Steve, I have the DAC and new Sonos burning away on SE and Balanced outputs now with frybaby track on repeat. I'll try again in a week. I did some comparing of DACs/transports on my own yesterday. At the moment my best source is Sansui tuner. Next best is the Altmann DAC fed by Samsung CDP. The toy servers are just not happening. Sol sees many possible mods in the stock Sonos but that's a project yet to be prioritized. I'm still not a fan of modding. I think it's cheaper to buy the product designed from the beginning to do what you want. But the DL3 has a big advantage over the Altmann if the highs will smooth out as Steve's did. If not I might ditch the toy server for CDP. I wish I had tried the Sonos player into the Oracle DAC, to see how well it deals with really bad jitter. That DAC is awesome.
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there's still cake left!! That's the bonus... I had some yesterday and still more to go... I could eat some of it every day... not sure my waistline would survive... but I'd go happy, darn it! :)
I do give you lots of credit, Rich... you've taken on the task and made it an adventure to learn from... that's what can be so darn fun at times with this hobby.... I sometimes get curmudgeony in my old age and just say screw it and get what you know will work regardless of price.... but then I didn't have the WAF factor to deal with in the past, nor someone else having a say on the pursestrings... now that I have someone wanting to buy ridiculously expensive cars with more options than anyone in their right mind would buy and freakin' rugs that cost more than most systems I've done, and obscenely priced furniture that is just going to get dinged up or destroyed by the cat from hell that appears to be coming along despite my best efforts to get rid of it........... well, I don't have as much freedom to spend and need to look more closely at these things just like everyone else... :(
I'm willing to be the guinea pig for Sol with regard to Sonos... the better half just doesn't get the audio PC thing no matter how many user guides I write up or how well I program remotes, etc.... she definitely could figure out the Sonos. I like the convenience myself... but it's just not up to snuff in stock form with regard to sound quality...
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You're not even close to old and curmudgeonly but I can see signs that you will be a master when your time comes 20 years from now. And you definitely have good taste in audio gear, so keep the critiques coming and keep bringing reference gear to make your point. Your bat ears are like a canary in a coalmine, you will protect us dull ears from buying screechers, even if we can't hear it.
As for budget, in our house, gokarting is starting to trump stereo for income disposal. Richard won his second consecutive championship yesterday, and Henry came in 3rd, in his first year. Richard saw a TV show where Frank Williams said to drive in F1 you have to win every championship you ever raced in, so he's taking that very seriously. They both got pole and won their respective races yesterday. I can see audio fading a bit if their racing interest persists. Both are pricey hobbies when you want/need excellent equipment.
Sol found a way to cut distortion on the i60 in half. He is not giving up on it easily, that's his passion. But at least I have the i30 now, and guess what? I am listening to lot more music.
I'm gonna scatter the Sonos into a full size box and start upgrading piece by piece. If we get it sounding halfway decent digital out I'll do one for you. I'll probably put a superclock 3 in it and regulated linear power supply for starters. It will not upsample, just redbook, maybe a new DAC section too. My family loves the Sonos. That's why I want the amps to stay on all the time, so the 7yo can play her music without asking for help. The hardest part is editing the tags so the Library is easy to navigate. It's not as good at organizing a classical library as Olive.
I found that buying my wife a new car solved many of the problems I had relating to audio, like the acoustic treatment, and sub $1000 accessories, at least for a while. I also wash and wax it regularly so it still seems like new, trying to extend the WAF for all it's worth. But she got the most stripped version they make, still pretty nice.
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What is up with all the Spectron and Class D bashing? :duh
A few of you heard it through one set of speakers and on the surface at least, seem to have drawn conclusions that simply don't fly. Everybody has their opinion and that is cool but some of the stuff said in this thread is a little harsh. I have the Spectron running a set of GamuT L7's at the moment (that are a highly regarded set of speakers) and to date, not one single person that has heard this system has made the comment that the system (or amp) was too forward, bright, harsh, accurate etc. On these speakers the amp works wonders, just like it does with some of the Epos speakers I have tried it on. The only person I know of to date that has sold a Spectron amp as a result of not liking the sound (cost also), owned a set of higher end Ushers. I can't recall off the top of my head if they were BE-10's or BE-20's but it was one of those.
I actually have a few Spectron dealers that are also Usher dealers and for the most part the general feedback seems to be that this combo can work but is very model dependent. I should also mention that I actually don't mind Usher speakers. I have heard almost all of them and although the BE-20's and BE-10's are not my cup of tea, there are a few models in the line that I would happily own.
Truth be told, I can't stand forward, bright, accurate sounding systems as they make me want to pull what little hair I have left...out. Take it for what it's worth but for me to like a system, it usually means that the system is what most would call laid back, warm etc. What I call the UK sound. Detail, bass out the ass, control across the spectrum but not in your face is what I like.
On the other hand when I run the Spectron with PSB's top of the line speakers, it's too much of a good thing for my personal tastes and thus I don't like the combo but I don't blame that on the amp, I blame the speakers as they do it with W4S amps also and display the same tendencies when powered by NAD stuff which is about as laid back as it gets.
Same goes for Spectron and Thiel. It's simply not a combo I would personally use but again, I don't blame the amp or speakers for that, it's simply a combination of the two which doesn't work for me.
Last time I checked, the speakers have far more to do with what you are hearing then the amp does......
I distribute Spectron so obviously I have vested interest in the line but in spite of that I'm very upfront with people when it comes to this amp. If I don't think it will work in their respective system, I tell them. Ask Rich if you want confirmation. I have been telling him for weeks to look at a manufacture I don't even handle as I think it will work wonders given what he is after! I may be wrong but I'm giving him an honest opinion on what I think will work and unfortunately for me, I don't sell the amp in question. I'm basically sending him to somebody else. :(
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Good points, John !
I do know that my ears weren't very tolerant of most of the combinations, this past Saturday.
I've heard Rich's prior system sounding excellent, but that was with (at least) tube amps, sometimes tube pre-amps, tube CD player, etc. HMMMMM....it would appear that I like tube smoothness, coupled with Rich's BE-20's.
I'm very happy with my own system, so I'm glad that I'm not having to fight that, as poor Rich is doing ;)
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I have been telling him for weeks to look at a manufacture I don't even handle as I think it will work wonders given what he is after! I may be wrong but I'm giving him an honest opinion on what I think will work and unfortunately for me, I don't sell the amp in question. I'm basically sending him to somebody else. :(
It's the Parasound JC-1s. And they are still on my to-do list. I'd rather buy from you, but the honest advice is even more valuable. I have to think about the size, heat, and usability. But the speakers deserve such an amp, similar price as Spectron.
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Rich, if you're even remotely considering a McCormack DNA-500, we should work out a time for you to borrow it. To me, while certainly not tubes, it presents the best of solid state. Tightly controlled bass, fast transient response, all the power those Ushers could possibly need and rarely a painful moment unless the recording simply sucks (which does happen more often than I wish).
There are two right now on A'gon at a great price. Let me know if you want to give it a spin sometime...
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Rich, if you're even remotely considering a McCormack DNA-500, we should work out a time for you to borrow it.
Rich.....
I'd take Mike up on his offer. 8)
I've heard the McCormack a few times...it does a lot of things right....
And it would work well with the Usher's....
Match it up with a good tube preamp...you should be good -to -go. :beer:
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A poster that I respect on A-asylum said you're possibly wasting your time trying to select high resolution components without using a dedicated AC line, due to unpredictable results. I didn't want to believe it, but after having a line installed last year my system has been consistently clean and never etched. Previously my best results were normally late at night.
Chris
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Thanks for the offer Mike. I liked it at your house. I hate to take equipment out of someone's working system. If you won't miss it for a couple nights I would like to try it out. Thanks a lot.
Chrisa, I intend to get a balanced power conditioner back in the house when that priority rises to the surface. It is much better than dedicated line imo. Although I do have a dedicated line in the room needs moving to the correct wall since I have rotated the system 90 degrees.
thanks wolfy!
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The McCormack sounded great at Mike's, for sure. It's an amp I've been interested in trying for years. If Mike's willing to 'spread the wealth' I'd like to hear it in my system too! :)
-C