Author Topic: Pray for Rollo  (Read 2647 times)

Offline tmazz

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Re: Pray for Rollo
« Reply #30 on: October 02, 2021, 12:22:03 PM »
I just noticed that Charles mentioned he will be rebuilding his room doing metal studs.

My gut reaction to that is how sturdy are metal studs as compared to wood 2x4s?

I know that structurally they will hold a load, but are they any more susceptible to vibration than wood studs?

Anybody have any thoughts on this?

Also, here is an article on the different types of sheetrock and their usability  for soundproofing:

https://soundproofsilence.com/quietrock-vs-double-drywall/

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Offline BobM

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Re: Pray for Rollo
« Reply #31 on: October 03, 2021, 04:43:17 AM »
I guess you could pack the walls with insulation to help dampen any ringing that might occur, but in a basement wall that could be a recipe for disaster with dampness and mold. Charles, I suppose you will be wire brushing the concrete to remove all traces of mold or decay and applying a waterproofing barrier of some sort over the concrete, maybe a moisture paint? Perhaps you could wrap the metal studs with something before constructing the wall support.
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Offline P.I.

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Re: Pray for Rollo
« Reply #32 on: October 03, 2021, 09:27:35 AM »
I guess you could pack the walls with insulation to help dampen any ringing that might occur, but in a basement wall that could be a recipe for disaster with dampness and mold. Charles, I suppose you will be wire brushing the concrete to remove all traces of mold or decay and applying a waterproofing barrier of some sort over the concrete, maybe a moisture paint? Perhaps you could wrap the metal studs with something before constructing the wall support.
Steel studs are actually better for use in making walls with high transmission loss.  See this:

https://soundproofingcalculator.com/comparison-steel-studs-vs-wood-studs/

It is essential to to stuff the walls with insulation or better yet use spray urethane foam.  There are admixtures that can be used to eliminate any possibility of mold in basements and other high humidity locations. 
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Offline rpf

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Re: Pray for Rollo
« Reply #33 on: October 03, 2021, 10:50:53 PM »
The studs on the exterior walls should be interior to the foam insulation (spray or Poly-Iso, XPS, or EPS boards) so they don't conduct heat to the cold concrete surface, leading to condensation. If not using spray foam (which I really don't like for various reasons) the foam boards can be attached with a compatible adhesive, or Hilti IDP or Rodenhouse Plasti-Grip PMF fasteners. Code is R-10 for basement walls in Zone 4 so roughly 2" of foam will suffice, depending on the type used. I think you could then be able to stuff the stud walls with Rockwool for sound absorption, though it might be prudent to leave an inch air gap between the stud wall/Rockwool and the foam insulation. Rockwool is manufactured in sizes for metal as well as wood studs, though you may have to order the former. The latter is in all of the big box stores and in many lumber yards now.
PS: seal the seams/perimeter of the foam boards with a high quality caulk, sealing tape, or canned spray foam.
PPS: most of the above info came from: https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com, a great info source for high quality, energy efficient building. Other great sources of info are https://www.buildingscience.com and Matt Risinger's channel on YouTube.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2021, 06:55:02 AM by rpf »
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Offline P.I.

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Re: Pray for Rollo
« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2021, 11:47:36 AM »
The studs on the exterior walls should be interior to the foam insulation (spray or Poly-Iso, XPS, or EPS boards) so they don't conduct heat to the cold concrete surface, leading to condensation. If not using spray foam (which I really don't like for various reasons) the foam boards can be attached with a compatible adhesive, or Hilti IDP or Rodenhouse Plasti-Grip PMF fasteners. Code is R-10 for basement walls in Zone 4 so roughly 2" of foam will suffice, depending on the type used.https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com, a great info source for high quality, energy efficient building. Other great sources of info are https://www.buildingscience.com and Matt Risinger's channel on YouTube.
The reason I recommended the spray foam is from prior experience with a client some years ago. 

He went with the stud/rockwool (great stuff roackwool as is the recyled denim product) in Wisconsin and subsequently had ground water and black mold issues.  This was after he treated the concrete walls with a fungicide.  With the proper open cell foam with fungistat inclusions his issues were finally resolved.  Kind of a long way around...

I am always trying to expand my knowledge base and advice from others is a grat way for me to do so.  My curiosity in piqued.  What is it that you don't like about the spray foam application?  An inquiring mind (what's let of it) wants to know.   :lol:
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Offline _Scotty_

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Re: Pray for Rollo
« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2021, 02:31:49 PM »
It appears that there are two types of spray in foam available closed cell and open cell.
Open cell foam is remarkably sound absorbent. If sprayed between the studs in the rebuilt wall
it may prove to be highly effective at keeping the sound from escaping your listening
room.
Scotty

Offline rpf

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Re: Pray for Rollo
« Reply #36 on: October 04, 2021, 02:46:24 PM »
"The reason I recommended the spray foam is from prior experience with a client some years ago. 

He went with the stud/rockwool (great stuff roackwool as is the recyled denim product) in Wisconsin and subsequently had ground water and black mold issues.  This was after he treated the concrete walls with a fungicide.  With the proper open cell foam with fungistat inclusions his issues were finally resolved.  Kind of a long way around..."

Which is why I stated that (closed cell) foam, which is vapor impermeable, had to be used against the concrete, and then a stud wall (filled with Rockwool, which is vapor permeable) erected in front of the foam (with an air gap between them).

I'm not a big fan of foam in general. Aside from the greenhouse gas issues, most, if not all, of them give off toxic fumes when exposed to flame. And they burn at around 750 degrees F, much less than the 1100 degree temperature of a typical house fire. They are also prone to insect infestation (at least when used on a building exterior). Neither of these deficits should be a problem on an interior basement wall with a layer of sheetrock sandwiching the foam (and fire stops above it) and foam is the only thing that can be used in that location. As to spray foam, there are additional issues in that it has to be applied very carefully - and often is not. Also it hides leaks and is difficult and messy to remove if necessary for repair or renovation. Foam boards are less of a problem in these ways.

I am a fan of Rockwool. I've used it in both residential and commercial, interior and exterior locations and the benefits include:
0% smoke production, 0% combustible. It simply melts - but at over 2100 degrees F. Mineral wool, such as Rockwool or Thermafiber, is required in the interior walls of high rises in many locations because of its ability to retard fire spread.
Sheds water, doesn't support mold growth.
Deters insects and rodents (unlike foam which carpenter ants and other insects love, and fiberglass, which rodents love).
Has a reasonably high R value of 4.2/inch.
Doesn't degrade, unlike fiberglass which compresses over time. I've found fiberglass batts in walls and ceilings of 50-60 year old homes that were completely flat. I think fiberglass is pretty useless as insulation due to the above facts and because it melts at a low temperature (1000 degrees or so) and falls apart when wet.   

Sorry for the long rant.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2021, 02:57:38 PM by rpf »
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Offline P.I.

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Re: Pray for Rollo
« Reply #37 on: October 04, 2021, 06:13:59 PM »
"The reason I recommended the spray foam is from prior experience with a client some years ago. 

He went with the stud/rockwool (great stuff roackwool as is the recyled denim product) in Wisconsin and subsequently had ground water and black mold issues.  This was after he treated the concrete walls with a fungicide.  With the proper open cell foam with fungistat inclusions his issues were finally resolved.  Kind of a long way around..."

Which is why I stated that (closed cell) foam, which is vapor impermeable, had to be used against the concrete, and then a stud wall (filled with Rockwool, which is vapor permeable) erected in front of the foam (with an air gap between them).

I'm not a big fan of foam in general. Aside from the greenhouse gas issues, most, if not all, of them give off toxic fumes when exposed to flame. And they burn at around 750 degrees F, much less than the 1100 degree temperature of a typical house fire. They are also prone to insect infestation (at least when used on a building exterior). Neither of these deficits should be a problem on an interior basement wall with a layer of sheetrock sandwiching the foam (and fire stops above it) and foam is the only thing that can be used in that location. As to spray foam, there are additional issues in that it has to be applied very carefully - and often is not. Also it hides leaks and is difficult and messy to remove if necessary for repair or renovation. Foam boards are less of a problem in these ways.

I am a fan of Rockwool. I've used it in both residential and commercial, interior and exterior locations and the benefits include:
0% smoke production, 0% combustible. It simply melts - but at over 2100 degrees F. Mineral wool, such as Rockwool or Thermafiber, is required in the interior walls of high rises in many locations because of its ability to retard fire spread.
Sheds water, doesn't support mold growth.
Deters insects and rodents (unlike foam which carpenter ants and other insects love, and fiberglass, which rodents love).
Has a reasonably high R value of 4.2/inch.
Doesn't degrade, unlike fiberglass which compresses over time. I've found fiberglass batts in walls and ceilings of 50-60 year old homes that were completely flat. I think fiberglass is pretty useless as insulation due to the above facts and because it melts at a low temperature (1000 degrees or so) and falls apart when wet.   

Sorry for the long rant.
I totally get it.  I'm a big fan of rock wool over FG.  FG is pretty much worthless in an acoustic context.

I suggested the open cell foam because it is a basement application.  Above ground is a completely different animal. Since the typical basement temperature hovers around 55 degrees no matter what, open cell foam between studs seems to be a great alternative.  There are many "green friendly" zero and low VOC spray foam alternatives available in 2021.

It all comes down to performance and personal choice.
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Offline rpf

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Re: Pray for Rollo
« Reply #38 on: October 04, 2021, 07:54:57 PM »


[/quote]I totally get it.  I'm a big fan of rock wool over FG.  FG is pretty much worthless in an acoustic context.

I suggested the open cell foam because it is a basement application.  Above ground is a completely different animal. Since the typical basement temperature hovers around 55 degrees no matter what, open cell foam between studs seems to be a great alternative.  There are many "green friendly" zero and low VOC spray foam alternatives available in 2021.

It all comes down to performance and personal choice.
[/quote]

Unless the finished basement is heated, as many in the North are. Then there could be enough temperature differential between the concrete in contact with frozen ground and the air in the basement to cause condensation on the concrete. In which case you'd want vapor impermeable (closed cell) insulation.

I've read that there are new "green friendly" foams coming out but haven't looked into them yet. I would choose Rockwool over foam wherever possible anyway for the other reasons I mentioned above.
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Offline rollo

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Re: Pray for Rollo
« Reply #39 on: October 06, 2021, 02:29:19 PM »
I guess you could pack the walls with insulation to help dampen any ringing that might occur, but in a basement wall that could be a recipe for disaster with dampness and mold. Charles, I suppose you will be wire brushing the concrete to remove all traces of mold or decay and applying a waterproofing barrier of some sort over the concrete, maybe a moisture paint? Perhaps you could wrap the metal studs with something before constructing the wall support.


  Yes Bob all cleaned. Now scrape walls and apply Thoro-Seal to foundation walls. The metal studs will not ring 12"OC and will be grounded as well.  There will be rigid foam foam insulation stuffed in between studs. Two layer 5/8" SR over studs. Floor is Concrete. So a vapor barrier, then masonite then pad and wool carpet. Clg will be open wood rafters. At rear of room a open stair with treads only on a center support which will act as a difussor.





charles
« Last Edit: October 06, 2021, 02:34:10 PM by rollo »
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Offline P.I.

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Re: Pray for Rollo
« Reply #40 on: October 07, 2021, 12:50:20 AM »
I guess you could pack the walls with insulation to help dampen any ringing that might occur, but in a basement wall that could be a recipe for disaster with dampness and mold. Charles, I suppose you will be wire brushing the concrete to remove all traces of mold or decay and applying a waterproofing barrier of some sort over the concrete, maybe a moisture paint? Perhaps you could wrap the metal studs with something before constructing the wall support.


  Yes Bob all cleaned. Now scrape walls and apply Thoro-Seal to foundation walls. The metal studs will not ring 12"OC and will be grounded as well.  There will be rigid foam foam insulation stuffed in between studs. Two layer 5/8" SR over studs. Floor is Concrete. So a vapor barrier, then masonite then pad and wool carpet. Clg will be open wood rafters. At rear of room a open stair with treads only on a center support which will act as a difussor.





charles
Nice, well thought out. I'm happy you have a contractor that gets IT.   :thumb:
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Offline Nick B

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Re: Pray for Rollo
« Reply #41 on: October 07, 2021, 08:50:04 AM »
I guess you could pack the walls with insulation to help dampen any ringing that might occur, but in a basement wall that could be a recipe for disaster with dampness and mold. Charles, I suppose you will be wire brushing the concrete to remove all traces of mold or decay and applying a waterproofing barrier of some sort over the concrete, maybe a moisture paint? Perhaps you could wrap the metal studs with something before constructing the wall support.


  Yes Bob all cleaned. Now scrape walls and apply Thoro-Seal to foundation walls. The metal studs will not ring 12"OC and will be grounded as well.  There will be rigid foam foam insulation stuffed in between studs. Two layer 5/8" SR over studs. Floor is Concrete. So a vapor barrier, then masonite then pad and wool carpet. Clg will be open wood rafters. At rear of room a open stair with treads only on a center support which will act as a difussor.





charles

Really excellent progress, Charles. Will you be able to duplicate acoustically what you had before or will you need to use a mic and software to fine tune things?
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Offline jimbones

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Re: Pray for Rollo
« Reply #42 on: October 08, 2021, 12:58:34 PM »
Nice Bunker...er listening room  8)
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Offline P.I.

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Re: Pray for Rollo
« Reply #43 on: October 08, 2021, 02:48:44 PM »
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Offline rollo

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Re: Pray for Rollo
« Reply #44 on: October 12, 2021, 09:44:02 AM »
I guess you could pack the walls with insulation to help dampen any ringing that might occur, but in a basement wall that could be a recipe for disaster with dampness and mold. Charles, I suppose you will be wire brushing the concrete to remove all traces of mold or decay and applying a waterproofing barrier of some sort over the concrete, maybe a moisture paint? Perhaps you could wrap the metal studs with something before constructing the wall support.


  Yes Bob all cleaned. Now scrape walls and apply Thoro-Seal to foundation walls. The metal studs will not ring 12"OC and will be grounded as well.  There will be rigid foam foam insulation stuffed in between studs. Two layer 5/8" SR over studs. Floor is Concrete. So a vapor barrier, then masonite then pad and wool carpet. Clg will be open wood rafters. At rear of room a open stair with treads only on a center support which will act as a difussor.





charles
Nice, well thought out. I'm happy you have a contractor that gets IT.   :thumb:


  I am the construction Mgr. Hiring each trade separately. Adding one more dedicated line as well for a total of five.

charles
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