Author Topic: Power Cable ABX Test  (Read 23049 times)

Offline mdconnelly

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Re: Power Cable ABX Test
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2010, 07:06:33 PM »
The merit of abx testing or the validity of what was documented in 2004 is not, I suspect, about there not being differences in power cords but that it shakes the foundation of how we "think" we hear differences.  And for that reason alone, there is much to be learned from it.

I would surely like to know if I have the ability to discern such sonic differences, but I suspect I would fair no better than those in 2004.   But, stepping into the confessional, I have made purchasing decisions based on listening periosd far less than weeks/months because I was confident that I consistently heard not just differences, but improvements.  In the times where I've heard power cords such as the JPS Aluminata or Kaptovator inserted into a system, I was totally convinced I heard a discernable difference (as did most everyone else in the room which could also be a contributing factor).   But, if in participating in such an ABX test, I was forced to accept that I am simply not able to reliably tell the difference, it would challenge my assumptions on how I approach power cord evaluation (and likely, most other comparative listening evaluations).

And Werd, strong position aside, maybe that's what you're saying.   I do think your premise on how to improve comparative evaluation is valid.  Extended listening periods measured in weeks/months in systems and with music you are intimately familiar with should undoubtedly improve your ability to not only hear differences but also to select what you clearly prefer in a repeatable evaluation scenario.   

So after sticking with this thread, I'm come to think that quite likely, the real lesson learned from the 2004 abx test was NOT about the cables at all.    Rather, if was really just testing the assumption that we believe we can readily and consistently discern such differences.

Entertaining?  Sure.   But it also tends to shine a bright light on some assumptions that just might make us feel a bit uncomfortable.  And that's a good thing.


Offline Werd

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Re: Power Cable ABX Test
« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2010, 07:25:15 PM »


And Werd, strong position aside, maybe that's what you're saying.   I do think your premise on how to improve comparative evaluation is valid.  Extended listening periods measured in weeks/months in systems and with music you are intimately familiar with should undoubtedly improve your ability to not only hear differences but also to select what you clearly prefer in a repeatable evaluation scenario.   




 :thumb:

ABX testing urks me the most out of anything on internet about audio. The naysayer ABX test will have us walk in and do the test. But that isnt how we pursue this hobby. We spend hours infront of system and doing so we become personally acquainted with its sound. For an abx test to be hobby friendly it needs to educate the participants. This could take days or weeks. Tell us the answers,teach us the differences between the cables when preparing the test. Let us go into fully prepared and then we can use our trained listening abilities with the two or three cords to make the right choices. At this point ABX testing is out of the nayser hands and into the hobbiest because the end results would be a lot more higher for the right answer.
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Offline richidoo

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Re: Power Cable ABX Test
« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2010, 08:47:27 PM »
yah you do

This is your last warning.  You can have your point but you will not deny others theirs.

Offline Werd

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Re: Power Cable ABX Test
« Reply #33 on: December 05, 2010, 08:48:58 PM »
yah you do

This is your last warning.  You can have your point but you will not deny others theirs.

not sure what you are talking about?
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Offline mdconnelly

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Re: Power Cable ABX Test
« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2010, 04:50:48 AM »

...
ABX testing urks me the most out of anything on internet about audio. The naysayer ABX test will have us walk in and do the test. But that isnt how we pursue this hobby. We spend hours infront of system and doing so we become personally acquainted with its sound. For an abx test to be hobby friendly it needs to educate the participants. ...

But Werd, you state precisely what the value of the ABX test is - to educate the participants.   Simply stated, if you think there is a difference and you fail to tell the difference in an ABX test, then you've learned something.   Some may extrapolate that there is therefore no difference in power cords.   Others will state that it is simply a flawed test.  But, others just might learn that they cannot, in fact, hear differences of that magnitude as they thought they could.


Offline richidoo

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Re: Power Cable ABX Test
« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2010, 06:41:45 AM »
[snip]...others just might learn that they cannot, in fact, hear differences of that magnitude as they thought they could.

Or should...

and thereby providing another reference, among the many possible, for the perceived value (or lack of value in this case) of the cord. Practicing before the test minimizes the affirmation of value for a truly exceptional cord that can be identified in an unfamiliar situation.

Offline Werd

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Re: Power Cable ABX Test
« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2010, 08:47:30 AM »

...
ABX testing urks me the most out of anything on internet about audio. The naysayer ABX test will have us walk in and do the test. But that isnt how we pursue this hobby. We spend hours infront of system and doing so we become personally acquainted with its sound. For an abx test to be hobby friendly it needs to educate the participants. ...

But Werd, you state precisely what the value of the ABX test is - to educate the participants.   Simply stated, if you think there is a difference and you fail to tell the difference in an ABX test, then you've learned something.   Some may extrapolate that there is therefore no difference in power cords.   Others will state that it is simply a flawed test.  But, others just might learn that they cannot, in fact, hear differences of that magnitude as they thought they could.



Conducting an abx test naysayer style educates me only that it doesn't belong in our hobby.  People will fail these tests and still have a very acute sonic knowledge of their own system. 

People who have a good background in psycho acoustics know that these tests screw with your head. Thats why they conduct them like they do. For me in this hobby i have listened to my system evolve over the years, i have a personal knowledge of the sound. This is why i can hear differences immediately with even slight changes. Very often i am not sure i even like the changes, so it takes time. This is how i conduct my hobby. This is how i have trained my brain to listen to music and my stereo. This habit forming skill i agree does not fair well when doing abx tests in an unfamiliar environment. Thats why for an abx test to be hobby friendly the people need to well educated themselves in the sounds the equipment or cords used for blind testing.  At that point they can take pull off high marks in ABX tests.

If i listen to an unfamiliar killer system for the first time. Having stock power cords or leet high end cords won't mean much to me. I have no personal sonic knowledge of the system. I have not heard the system evolve. It could very easily mask the difference amongst stock or after market cords. But some how not hearing a difference is suppose to be a ground breaking event and illustrates that cords don't mean much. Its just a bunch of nonsense.
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Offline Werd

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Re: Power Cable ABX Test
« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2010, 09:08:02 AM »
ABX testing i notice in this hobby is used in the speaker and room treatment industry to dissemble the hobby. Its a marketing scam used to direct attention and dollars to a certain product. They are always conducted naysayer style designed for the participants to fail. Most of the people on this board will see through it but the public at large will buy into these marketing techniques. This is why we keep reading about them. We have manufacturers in this hobby that intentionally try and dissemble our hobby for their own profit. Sad very sad indeed. 
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Offline rollo

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Re: Power Cable ABX Test
« Reply #38 on: December 06, 2010, 09:31:13 AM »
 Some deep word Werd. Yes yes and but but its all in fun for us. We can declare the Winner has "Golden ears" . Meaning that , that person can tell a difference. My intent is not to discover that cables make a difference, that is understood.
  We get your point. This was meant to be a fun exerecise at a meeting thats all.  :thumb:


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Offline Werd

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Re: Power Cable ABX Test
« Reply #39 on: December 06, 2010, 09:54:21 AM »
^^^^

count me in, i will do it over the phone.....  :lol:
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Offline richidoo

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Re: Power Cable ABX Test
« Reply #40 on: December 06, 2010, 10:37:13 AM »
Thanks Werd. You made your points without attacking anyone personally. You attacked the concept of ABX, which is absolutely fine.

Offline Werd

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Re: Power Cable ABX Test
« Reply #41 on: December 06, 2010, 12:56:48 PM »
Thanks Werd. You made your points without attacking anyone personally. You attacked the concept of ABX, which is absolutely fine.

Awe you thought i was attacking you. I wasn't attacking you, come here ya (werd grabs richidoo in a headlock and gives him noogies to the head head.
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Offline richidoo

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Re: Power Cable ABX Test
« Reply #42 on: December 06, 2010, 02:12:51 PM »
I know you didn't think you were. We have rules for manners here that sometimes seem subtle. Thanks for hangin in there.

Online BobM

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Re: Power Cable ABX Test
« Reply #43 on: December 07, 2010, 06:23:57 AM »
So, for the last 2 pages, instead of the rediculous debate of whether cables make a difference or not, we are now debating whether cable tests are worthwhile or not. I propose that we next debate whether debates about cable tests and cables are worthwhile or not.  :duh
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Offline richidoo

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Re: Power Cable ABX Test
« Reply #44 on: December 07, 2010, 08:13:20 AM »
Derivatives!

I think me and Werd did debate the latter (2nd derivative) a little bit, which was far too much.