Power Cable ABX Test

[Triode Pete]

I agree that the preamp is the most sensitive to power.

Preamp may be the most sensitive to power but in my evaluations of power cords, it was easily discernible to note differences in PC's swapping only on the digital front end (CD / SACD players)... and also quick to swap out to avoid "memory loss".

Pete

[mdconnelly]

Here's the thing about the abx test... Wouldn't it be fascinating, startling in fact, to have been part of that only to learn that you could not accurately tell the difference?  Even given the limitations of that setup and the way that test was conducted, I would be willing to bet I would be able to tell the difference with far better than 50% accuracy.  I bet we all would.   

So the real question - what would you do if you participated in such a test only to discover that you could not tell a difference with any reliability?   Would you doubt the results, find fault with the methodology, or immediately sell all you expensive power cords and invest in some really good scotch instead?   

I would love to be part of such a test but rather than comparing stock to an outrageously expensive PC, I'd rather pick a good quality, reasonably popular power cord in a price range that most of us would consider spending.  If in such a test I could not reliably tell a difference, then, woohoo, I'm in for some damn good scotch! 

[rollo]

  We all know by now everything makes a difference. Most own systems revealing enough to discern a change good or bad. The main factor IMO is price. and the LCR of said cable. That is where the so called synergy comes from. A good match of LCR with the component.
  If I was looking at $12,500 worth of cabling in lieu of upgrading a component it would be the component. Another option would be upgrading the power supplies of the components. I look at cables as bandaides. They may cover the wound but not heal it. The core issue is the powersupply and or circuit design. However where does one start. If one is not technically capable we must rely on an outside agent to perform the work. Will the result be good, only God knows. So for most a cable change helps cover the wound but rarely solves the problem.
   Lets say Nordst, Tara , JPS issue their specs and I perfer say Tara ICs, speaker cable and powercords. I take those specs and search for a less expensive cable with the same or similar specs. They sound the same to me.
   When carlman stated the JPS SC3 ICs presented a larger than life presentation I took it with a grain of salt. now that my amps are fully broken in AGAIN , I now realize he was spot on. to my suprise as good as the JPS cable is it does not mate well with other Manfs cables. Go figure. when all JPS is in the magic is there in spades. I was using the SC3 between pre and amp. Now at CDP and the difference just in location made a change foe the good. Why ? I do not know or care to know.
  All I'm looking for is the Manf. of said component to offer a desired spec for cabling used with their gear. It certainly would narrow the chase.
  Measurements are very helpfull in the initial design but in the end it is what we hear when making a purchase and that my little chickadees is as subjective as it comes.  


charles

[rollo]

Here's the thing about the abx test... Wouldn't it be fascinating, startling in fact, to have been part of that only to learn that you could not accurately tell the difference?  Even given the limitations of that setup and the way that test was conducted, I would be willing to bet I would be able to tell the difference with far better than 50% accuracy.  I bet we all would.   

So the real question - what would you do if you participated in such a test only to discover that you could not tell a difference with any reliability?   Would you doubt the results, find fault with the methodology, or immediately sell all you expensive power cords and invest in some really good scotch instead?   

I would love to be part of such a test but rather than comparing stock to an outrageously expensive PC, I'd rather pick a good quality, reasonably popular power cord in a price range that most of us would consider spending.  If in such a test I could not reliably tell a difference, then, woohoo, I'm in for some damn good scotch! 

  Me as well, lets do it. ATTENTION ALL CLUBS. Lets see if we can conduct a test similiar to the one we are talking about. We need to set the ground rulesand just do it. Are ya game men ?


charles

[richidoo]

I'm game. It'll take time and planning to pull it together to be "legit." If audio wire comparisons can be called legit?   

Mike, I wondered the same thing. If it turned out that I was batting .500 or less in picking out the expensive PCs I would be surprised and have a light bulb moment. I would welcome the experience and have a good laugh, not an ego invalidation. That's why I think it would be fun. But I wouldn't give up on gold wires. I'd still take the expensive wire home for a month and listen to it as Werd says, each night by myself to get the feel for it over time before I buy it. It might be that the change is so subtle that it doesn't show up when the airwaves are crowded with other people's thoughts and fears. With our crwd of relaxed confident audiophiles it always seems like drastic difference when the serious wire goes in. In the case of Kaptivator it has knocked my head off every time I have heard it inserted, so I am confident I could hear it blindfolded - but that's why they run the races! I think tube electronics would be more revealing of the changes, due to their tonal transparency and sensitivity to power quality. And true full range speakers would show the improvement in bass better than the smaller speakers in the published test.

There are a lot of JPS wires around our area, and a lot of Black Sands too. We'd need 3-5 of the same thing, depending on the system configuration.

[mdconnelly]

Rich, goods points all!   I agree about the Kaptovator.  It has always been a startling contrast to me as well.  But then, I always knew when it was put it and what it replaced so the whole abx approach would be quite interesting.  I also agree that how I respond to music late at night just by myself, and what I hear at G2Gs, are in fact, quite different so I could imagine a scenario where I'd fail at an abx comparison but then not be very content on those late evenings knowing I've got stock PCs in place.   It is a truly strange hobby we have here.

Would we learn something?  Probably.  Would it raise twice as many questions regardless of outcome?  No doubt.  Let's do it anyway! 
 
The success would be in how well we planned it, how well we kept the ABX truly blind, and how well the participants are familiar with the music and the system.   

[Werd]

I'm game. It'll take time and planning to pull it together to be "legit." If audio wire comparisons can be called legit?   

Mike, I wondered the same thing. If it turned out that I was batting .500 or less in picking out the expensive PCs I would be surprised and have a light bulb moment. I would welcome the experience and have a good laugh, not an ego invalidation. That's why I think it would be fun. But I wouldn't give up on gold wires. I'd still take the expensive wire home for a month and listen to it as Werd says, each night by myself to get the feel for it over time before I buy it. It might be that the change is so subtle that it doesn't show up when the airwaves are crowded with other people's thoughts and fears. With our crwd of relaxed confident audiophiles it always seems like drastic difference when the serious wire goes in. In the case of Kaptivator it has knocked my head off every time I have heard it inserted, so I am confident I could hear it blindfolded - but that's why they run the races! I think tube electronics would be more revealing of the changes, due to their tonal transparency and sensitivity to power quality. And true full range speakers would show the improvement in bass better than the smaller speakers in the published test.

There are a lot of JPS wires around our area, and a lot of Black Sands too. We'd need 3-5 of the same thing, depending on the system configuration.

You guys are screwing with you own hobby. Above is the only way to properly assess the cable. You guys read too much on the internet and have been told that you cant improve listening ability and cant make choices on your own (that you are human and its not possible). You need an abx test to teach you how to listen. Its the biggest lie on the audio boards that you can't do this on your own at home. I can tell by what you are writing that you are listening to these abx tests proponents. I am here to tell you that you can, its completely possible to hear differences that are real. The question is, do they appeal to your tastes.

The only way to do an abx test and keep your hobby intact is by taking the cable home for a month or so and have your wife or friend come by and leisurely change out cables while you turn your head or something. Or even better learn the differences, take a month and change out different cables and educate yourself on the difference. Thats another thing that abx tests lack is that they don't allow you to do any homework on the differences. Why is that? Why can't i get familiar with the two cables in an abx test first and then do the test under their conditions. Its never brought up because it breaks down their lies on abx tests. Its such a farce and you should know better not to take it seriously........ Have fun  

[richidoo]

As I see it, ABX is a way to force wirephiles to prove what they say they can hear. It is not to judge the quality of a wire for a purchase decision, which as Werd rightly says requires long period of solitary listening, but to demonstrate whether the listener can identify any difference in the sound, enough to pick it out of a two man lineup. Any difference. Any difference. Not "good or bad" to buy it, just Any identifiable difference, at all.  Such a test is relevant only because of the price of the exotic wires and the insistance by the manufacturer and owners that they are worth it.

It's like the game "Concentration"


See the picture, remember the picture, find the picture again. You win!

Except now it's audio concentration:
Hear the wire, remember the wire, find the wire again. Hopefully you win... No?!?  uh-ooohhhh

If you practice ahead of time it's no fun. The unfamiliar listening environment reinforces the value of the result. ABX is not listening for quality. This is not a relativistic comparison. It is an absolute comparison - are they the same or different? ABX cannot affirm the true value of an exotic wire, because it cannot judge quality. It is simply a head smack for deluded audiophiles and the manufacturers of their idols. If you don't see the value of a head smack to conceited deluded wirephiles and manufacturers then you won't ever see the value of ABX test.

Here's an example to prove the value of ABX testing. Make PCs from a highly resistive conductor, put huge caps on it, soak it in corrosive chemical to tarnish the connectors. Now compare that to a well made $10 stock cable. We can all agree that there would be an audible difference, and it could be identified reliably because the first wire causes equipment to malfunction. The ABX test itself is legitimate. It's the results and the purpose of the test that people object to.

I believe that there exist quality power cables that can pass the difference test. That doesn't mean they are better than stock or any other brand when placed into your unique system, just that they are indeed identifiably different, and so are worth investigating further for their particular sound quality. But at least I know I'm getting something for my money compared to stock. It is humiliating if the wire cannot be identified from stock. That's the point of the test. It is a head smack. No wonder the method has opponents. Tough love hurts. 

Oops, now we'll never get 5 same cords together in one place... 

[richidoo]

You guys are screwing with you own hobby. Above is the only way to properly assess the cable. You guys read too much on the internet and have been told that you cant improve listening ability and cant make choices on your own (that you are human and its not possible). You need an abx test to teach you how to listen. Its the biggest lie on the audio boards that you can't do this on your own at home. I can tell by what you are writing that you are listening to these abx tests proponents. I am here to tell you that you can, its completely possible to hear differences that are real. The question is, do they appeal to your tastes.

The only way to do an abx test and keep your hobby intact is by taking the cable home for a month or so and have your wife or friend come by and leisurely change out cables while you turn your head or something. Or even better learn the differences, take a month and change out different cables and educate yourself on the difference. Thats another thing that abx tests lack is that they don't allow you to do any homework on the differences. Why is that? Why can't i get familiar with the two cables in an abx test first and then do the test under their conditions. Its never brought up because it breaks down their lies on abx tests. Its such a farce and you should know better not to take it seriously........ Have fun  

At first I thought you were totally literal. Now I see you are slightly exaggerating to make a point. Smileys help.

I agree that swapping cables in one's own system to compare their quality is important. But it doesn't minimize the value of ABX to "ground the thinking" to an absolute reference (the free wires) and prove a small but very important portion of the value. The world can live with both methods, no?

[richidoo]

Because I respect your opinion Werd, I went and tried to read about why ABX opponents object. I found this article on hydro audio

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=16295

I like the idea of ABX test for the reasons stated above, but this article helps me realize that people aren't testing machines. They have pride, they want to get it right, they will guess and use intuition and will resist being wrong. Being afraid to be wrong skews the results. They will have different emotions from one playing of the test song to the next that will skew their choices. Even if they can hear a difference, they will second guess themselves and subconsciously self-sabotage their answers. So I think you are right that ABX testing is invalid, but not for your main reason, that it can't judge quality. While the idea of ABX is valid, and the reason for doing it is valid, the execution is impossible when using people as test subjects. They are too messy for a scientific test.    But I still think it would be a fun party game, but never to publish the results!

[_Scotty_]

For me ABX testing has no relevance. This is always used to try to establish if a group of test subjects can hear a difference between two things. For my self if I can hear a difference between two things then it matters. If I can't hear a difference then the I don't care about chasing something which falls below my threshold of perception. I try to go after large improvements in sound that are easy for me to hear in an sighted ABA test. Single blind tests are useful if you think you are hearing an "improvement" but you might be BSing yourself. As a rule I don't chase game that small,I go after big game mostly or not at all.
  I DIY my power-cords due to cost considerations and I am happy with the sound of my system with them in place. Being a DIYer from way back,I always wonder why someone doesn't start one of these tests with a DIYed power-cord that is so bad sounding that no one can miss its negative impact on the system.
  If you are wondering how this BAD sounding power-cord might be made from readily available parts read on. You can do this couple of ways. Twist up a six foot pair of insulated 8ga. solid wires with as tight a twist ratio per foot as possible and attach the AC power plug and IEC connector required to make it a power-cord.
The second power-cord uses stranded 8ga THHN wire with a twist ratio of 1 twist every 3 or 4 inches. The second version can be twisted up with the right jig without too much difficulty,the first version will be a lot harder to twist up even with a jig and a big ass 1/2 inch commercial drill.
  In either case you should have a power-cord that rolls off the highs so bad that you wonder if you still have a functioning tweeter in your loudspeaker. I am fairly sure that most listeners will be able identify the dead sounding power-cord in an ABX test with a better than random chance level of confidence.
 rollo,it might be interesting if you put this type "ringer" in any ABX test you do. Any system you set up to test power-cords should reveal this type of "power-cord" as having a large negative impact on the systems high frequency extension.
Scotty

[BobM]

I agree that the preamp is the most sensitive to power.

Preamp may be the most sensitive to power but in my evaluations of power cords, it was easily discernible to note differences in PC's swapping only on the digital front end (CD / SACD players)... and also quick to swap out to avoid "memory loss".

Pete

However, the cord that sounded best in the CD player was not necessarily the cord that sounded best in the preamp, or the amp. And was not necessarily the cord that sounded best in someone else's CD player. Which makes the whole idea of doing a club-wide ABX of a group of cords relatively useless in the long run, unless you're just looking for a "fun" activity for one club meeting. /

[Werd]

You guys are screwing with you own hobby. Above is the only way to properly assess the cable. You guys read too much on the internet and have been told that you cant improve listening ability and cant make choices on your own (that you are human and its not possible). You need an abx test to teach you how to listen. Its the biggest lie on the audio boards that you can't do this on your own at home. I can tell by what you are writing that you are listening to these abx tests proponents. I am here to tell you that you can, its completely possible to hear differences that are real. The question is, do they appeal to your tastes.

The only way to do an abx test and keep your hobby intact is by taking the cable home for a month or so and have your wife or friend come by and leisurely change out cables while you turn your head or something. Or even better learn the differences, take a month and change out different cables and educate yourself on the difference. Thats another thing that abx tests lack is that they don't allow you to do any homework on the differences. Why is that? Why can't i get familiar with the two cables in an abx test first and then do the test under their conditions. Its never brought up because it breaks down their lies on abx tests. Its such a farce and you should know better not to take it seriously........ Have fun  

At first I thought you were totally literal. Now I see you are slightly exaggerating to make a point. Smileys help.

I agree that swapping cables in one's own system to compare their quality is important. But it doesn't minimize the value of ABX to "ground the thinking" to an absolute reference (the free wires) and prove a small but very important portion of the value. The world can live with both methods, no?

hi rich

Actually i was being completely serious.  I am glad you are seeing things the way i do more. I do think abx tests have an entertainment value but thats it. The way they are conducted and they way  you guys want to do it doesn't represent the way we listen or grade cables in our hobby so really they have no good value here.

I do think abx tests if done correctly could be somewhat helpful. Those guys in the above link for ex. ,if they had nothing to do for a month and for a month they conducted the same abx test. Using the the same cables this might be a worthy abx experiment that can be done hack style. Each night after the tests, if they spent like 15 or 20 min. talking about the differences and educating themselves. I am sure after 30 days these guys would being scoring in the high 80's and i bet some even 100 percent on the tests. This to me seems like what the hobby is all about and its in-line with the way conduct our hobby. We spend hours on our gear and we need to spend time on the abx tests also.

You NY audio ravers are in a unique position. You guys have the ability and the attitude to learn how to be good at abx tests since you are all clumped together geographically. At your raves why don't do an abx test and keep doing them until you guys get good at them. Its like everything else, with practice you get better at them.

[richidoo]

I'm not seeing things the way you do. I find your arguments illogical. But that is fine as long as you participate in the discussion instead of prosthelytizing your view.

[Werd]

yah you do, you just filled three previous posts confirming it. You are just pissy at me because i said you guys are reading too much on the internet that is negatively affecting your judgement about abx tests.  .

There's a smiley for ya....hehe
 
Anyways i just don't want to see you screw with your hobby that will no doubt eventually happen. Because you, me and everyone else here will 50/50 or fail a dbx test in an unfamiliar environment first time. By the context of your previous posts you seem to understand it has nothing to do with our ability or tastes but the unguided maze of trying to figure it out or guess at it, that will just most likely happen.