AudioNervosa

Group Therapy => Audio Syndrome NY => Topic started by: BobM on September 02, 2021, 11:27:53 AM

Title: Pray for Rollo
Post by: BobM on September 02, 2021, 11:27:53 AM
I'll let Charles speak for what happened to his room and system during the flooding in NY from Ida, but send him your good wishes, because nobody should have happen what he is going through right now.

Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: Triode Pete on September 02, 2021, 11:54:48 AM
Holy crap (literally)! Wishing you the best possible outcome in this most shittiest situation!!!

 =3o

Best,
Pete
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: tmazz on September 02, 2021, 12:57:20 PM
+1
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: ejk on September 02, 2021, 01:42:50 PM
+2
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: P.I. on September 02, 2021, 06:32:17 PM
Oh, no!  Damn, There aren't words  :(.

Let us know, Charles.
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: malloy on September 02, 2021, 09:48:00 PM
Hang in there, Charles. Very sorry to hear this.
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: Nick B on September 02, 2021, 10:18:30 PM
Sorry to hear this horrible news, Charles
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: rollo on September 03, 2021, 09:04:33 AM
THANK YOU. :-" Your heart felt comments are precious to me. Lost three pairs of speakers and most of my LPs. The entire room needs to be demolished up to 4 ft from floor. Floor removed as well. SEWAGE sucks. If just water a good drying with sewage another story.

charles
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: P.I. on September 03, 2021, 10:43:56 AM
THANK YOU. :-" Your heart felt comments are precious to me. Lost three pairs of speakers and most of my LPs. The entire room needs to be demolished up to 4 ft from floor. Floor removed as well. SEWAGE sucks. If just water a good drying with sewage another story.

charles
Well, shit!

I know that you are well insured, but there are years invested in the LP's.  Those will be pigs to replace. 

I am so sorry for your losses...  😫
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: HAL on September 03, 2021, 11:15:03 AM
Charles,
Sorry to hear about your loss due to the flooding.   :(

I wish you the best in the rebuild and replacement process. 

Best,
Rich
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: rpf on September 03, 2021, 11:31:37 AM
Wow, really sorry to hear this Charles. That's horrible!   :-&

My first thought reading the headline was a health issue. Thankfully it's not.
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: mgalusha on September 03, 2021, 01:57:02 PM
Oh man Charles, really sorry to hear this. Like another poster, I feared it was health related. Sadly I can relate, I truly feel for you.
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: S Clark on September 03, 2021, 03:17:51 PM
A friend lost his whole house to a flood on a Texas river a few years back, but many of his lp's were still in his yard.  I cleaned some of them and salvaged about half with a soapy brush cleaning followed by an ultra sonic-- but if they are full of silt, be careful with the brushing.  If they're full of something else, they actually may clean up more easily.
When you're ready, make a list of your lost LP's.  If any are among my extra copies, I'll send them your way. 
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: rodge827 on September 04, 2021, 08:58:13 PM
Charles very sorry to hear of your troubles from Ida. Hoping all goes well for you and a speedy recovery.

Chris
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: shadowlight on September 05, 2021, 11:59:48 AM
Sorry to hear about your loss Charles
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: P.I. on September 05, 2021, 08:28:26 PM
One of the ways to rescue good vinyl (not regrind) is to use Elmer's white glue or other PVA white glue, not aliphatic resin.  Spread it on the exposed vinyl, not the label obviously, in a thin layer, let it dry and peel it off of the vinyl.  It gets EVERYTHING out of the grooves.  Try it on an expendable album first just to make sure the glue formula hasn't changed over the years.  Back in the day I cleaned all of the records we used to take up into the mountains and played on a battery powered record player and got rid of 90% (at least) of the pops and clicks.  Getting the thickness of the glue layer right is the hardest part.  Too thin doesn't work well.
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: S Clark on September 06, 2021, 07:12:36 AM
One of the ways to rescue good vinyl (not regrind) is to use Elmer's white glue or other PVA white glue, not aliphatic resin.  Spread it on the exposed vinyl, not the label obviously, in a thin layer, let it dry and peel it off of the vinyl.  It gets EVERYTHING out of the grooves.  Try it on an expendable album first just to make sure the glue formula hasn't changed over the years.  Back in the day I cleaned all of the records we used to take up into the mountains and played on a battery powered record player and got rid of 90% (at least) of the pops and clicks.  Getting the thickness of the glue layer right is the hardest part.  Too thin doesn't work well.
I think this is a winner.  Many of the records I cleaned for my friend were still in jackets- cemented to the records.  Even so, they were still full of silt. Pre-cleaning, vacuum cleaning, and finally ultrasonic cleaning still got spotty results.  I don't doubt that even using a soft bristle brush with soap may have caused more damage... so I like the glue idea for your more valuable or hard to find vinyl. 
I wonder if thinning the glue a bit would help it to flow into the grooves more completely??
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: rollo on September 06, 2021, 08:08:05 AM
Thanks for the tips Men. Elmers eh !

charles
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: Nick B on September 06, 2021, 09:19:14 AM
Yes, I’ve heard about the Elmers glue method a few years ago. Never got around to trying it. I looked at a few videos on YouTube just now and picked this one to give you an idea how of one way of doing it. Hope you can save some of those, Charles.

https://youtu.be/fB_HqEYxd8I
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: rollo on September 07, 2021, 09:52:45 AM
  Me as well Nick. Our biggest problem is finding Labor to remove the damaged items. Restoration and Construction Companies are busy with labor shortages as well. If I lived near the Texas border would not be an issue. :duh :thumb: :rofl:

charles
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: rollo on September 09, 2021, 08:55:29 AM
  PRAYERS WORKED. Thanks Guys.

charles
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: P.I. on September 09, 2021, 09:39:36 AM
  PRAYERS WORKED. Thanks Guys.

charles
They do when we let them!  :thumb:

Do tell.
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: Chazz on September 15, 2021, 04:09:51 PM
Have hope , stay strong , one day at a time, hang in there,charles
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: rollo on October 01, 2021, 11:51:24 AM
  Well, we are all demolished. Down to bare foundation walls. It appears a new room 13 x 22 x 8 will be had. Not doing entire space rebuild. Going to either Qln Prestige 3 or 1 speakers.
  Open rafter ceiling with wool carpet over masonite and concrete slab. Five dedicated 15A and 20A lines. Two layers 5/8" th. sheetrock over metal studs which will be grounded. Insurance companies coming along as well as unsuspected FEMA money. Thank you for your prayers.

charles
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: P.I. on October 01, 2021, 02:48:31 PM
  Well, we are all demolished. Down to bare foundation walls. It appears a new room 13 x 22 x 8 will be had. Not doing entire space rebuild. Going to either Qln Prestige 3 or 1 speakers.
  Open rafter ceiling with wool carpet over masonite and concrete slab. Five dedicated 15A and 20A lines. Two layers 5/8" th. sheetrock over metal studs which will be grounded. Insurance companies coming along as well as unsuspected FEMA money. Thank you for your prayers.

charles
I ran a room mode calculator on these dimensions.  Keep in mind that modes are typically ~ 5Hz wide.  Here are the results below 150Hz:

1   25.58 Hz   G0#   1-0-0   ax
2   43.28 Hz   F1   0-1-0   ax
3   50.27 Hz   G1   1-1-0   tan
4   51.15 Hz   G1#   2-0-0   ax
5   67.01 Hz   C2   2-1-0   tan
6   70.33 Hz   C2#   0-0-1   ax
7   74.84 Hz   D2   1-0-1   tan
8   76.73 Hz   D2#   3-0-0   ax
9   82.58 Hz   E2   0-1-1   tan
10   86.45 Hz   F2   1-1-1   obl
11   86.56 Hz   F2   0-2-0   ax
12   86.97 Hz   F2   2-0-1   tan
13   88.09 Hz   F2   3-1-0   tan
14   90.26 Hz   F2#   1-2-0   tan
15   97.14 Hz   G2   2-1-1   obl
16   100.55 Hz   G2   2-2-0   tan
17   102.3 Hz   G2#   4-0-0   ax
18   104.09 Hz   G2#   3-0-1   tan
19   111.08 Hz   A2   4-1-0   tan
20   111.53 Hz   A2   0-2-1   tan
21   112.73 Hz   A2   3-1-1   obl
22   114.43 Hz   A2#   1-2-1   obl
23   115.67 Hz   A2#   3-2-0   tan
24   122.7 Hz   B2   2-2-1   obl
25   124.15 Hz   B2   4-0-1   tan
26   127.88 Hz   C3   5-0-0   ax
27   129.85 Hz   C3   0-3-0   ax
28   131.48 Hz   C3   4-1-1   obl
29   132.34 Hz   C3   1-3-0   tan
30   134.01 Hz   C3   4-2-0   tan
31   135 Hz   C3#   5-1-0   tan
32   135.38 Hz   C3#   3-2-1   obl
33   139.56 Hz   C3#   2-3-0   tan
34   140.67 Hz   C3#   0-0-2   ax
35   142.97 Hz   D3   1-0-2   tan
36   145.94 Hz   D3   5-0-1   tan
37   147.17 Hz   D3   0-1-2   tan
38   147.67 Hz   D3   0-3-1   tan
39   149.38 Hz   D3   1-1-2   obl
40   149.68 Hz   D3   2-0-2   tan
41   149.87 Hz   D3   1-3-1   obl
42   150.82 Hz   D3   3-3-0   tan


These dimensions will give you a HUGE mode centered at ~ 87Hz.  Uhm, not to rain on your parade but here is the thunderstorm: this is one of the worst places that you can have an 18dB bump which is about what you will have with those dimensions.

If you go close to golden ratios (18.5 x 13 x 8) here is the distribution:

1   30.41 Hz   B0   1-0-0   ax
2   43.28 Hz   F1   0-1-0   ax
3   52.9 Hz   G1#   1-1-0   tan
4   60.83 Hz   B1   2-0-0   ax
5   70.33 Hz   C2#   0-0-1   ax
6   74.66 Hz   D2   2-1-0   tan
7   76.63 Hz   D2#   1-0-1   tan
8   82.58 Hz   E2   0-1-1   tan
9   86.56 Hz   F2   0-2-0   ax
10   88.01 Hz   F2   1-1-1   obl
11   91.24 Hz   F2#   3-0-0   ax
12   91.75 Hz   F2#   1-2-0   tan
13   92.99 Hz   F2#   2-0-1   tan
14   100.99 Hz   G2#   3-1-0   tan
15   102.57 Hz   G2#   2-1-1   obl
16   105.8 Hz   G2#   2-2-0   tan
17   111.53 Hz   A2   0-2-1   tan
18   115.2 Hz   A2#   3-0-1   tan
19   115.61 Hz   A2#   1-2-1   obl
20   121.66 Hz   B2   4-0-0   ax
21   123.07 Hz   B2   3-1-1   obl
22   125.77 Hz   B2   3-2-0   tan
23   127.04 Hz   B2   2-2-1   obl
24   129.13 Hz   C3   4-1-0   tan
25   129.85 Hz   C3   0-3-0   ax
26   133.36 Hz   C3   1-3-0   tan
27   140.52 Hz   C3#   4-0-1   tan
28   140.67 Hz   C3#   0-0-2   ax
29   143.39 Hz   D3   2-3-0   tan
30   143.92 Hz   D3   1-0-2   tan
31   144.1 Hz   D3   3-2-1   obl
32   147.04 Hz   D3   4-1-1   obl
33   147.17 Hz   D3   0-1-2   tan
34   147.67 Hz   D3   0-3-1   tan
35   149.31 Hz   D3   4-2-0   tan
36   150.28 Hz   D3   1-1-2   obl
37   150.77 Hz   D3   1-3-1   obl

Physics just sometime suck... or in this instance - blow.
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: tmazz on October 01, 2021, 04:47:08 PM
And unfortunately, for most of us, our room dimensions are not something that we can easily change, if at all.  :(
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: P.I. on October 01, 2021, 05:08:35 PM
And unfortunately, for most of us, our room dimensions are not something that we can easily change, if at all.  :(
For sure.

I got lucky.  My room is 20'4' x 14'4" x8' :

1   27.68 Hz   A0   1-0-0   ax
2   39.26 Hz   D1#   0-1-0   ax
3   48.04 Hz   G1   1-1-0   tan
4   55.35 Hz   A1   2-0-0   ax
5   67.87 Hz   C2#   2-1-0   tan
6   70.33 Hz   C2#   0-0-1   ax
7   75.58 Hz   D2#   1-0-1   tan
8   78.53 Hz   D2#   0-2-0   ax
9   80.55 Hz   E2   0-1-1   tan
10   83.03 Hz   E2   3-0-0   ax
11   83.26 Hz   E2   1-2-0   tan
12   85.17 Hz   F2   1-1-1   obl
13   89.5 Hz   F2   2-0-1   tan
14   91.85 Hz   F2#   3-1-0   tan
15   96.08 Hz   G2   2-2-0   tan
16   97.74 Hz   G2   2-1-1   obl
17   105.42 Hz   G2#   0-2-1   tan
18   108.81 Hz   A2   3-0-1   tan
19   108.99 Hz   A2   1-2-1   obl
20   110.71 Hz   A2   4-0-0   ax
21   114.28 Hz   A2#   3-2-0   tan
22   115.68 Hz   A2#   3-1-1   obl
23   117.46 Hz   A2#   4-1-0   tan
24   117.79 Hz   A2#   0-3-0   ax
25   119.07 Hz   A2#   2-2-1   obl
26   121 Hz   B2   1-3-0   tan
27   130.15 Hz   C3   2-3-0   tan
28   131.16 Hz   C3   4-0-1   tan
29   134.19 Hz   C3   3-2-1   obl
30   135.73 Hz   C3#   4-2-0   tan
31   136.91 Hz   C3#   4-1-1   obl
32   137.19 Hz   C3#   0-3-1   tan
33   138.38 Hz   C3#   5-0-0   ax
34   139.96 Hz   C3#   1-3-1   obl
35   140.67 Hz   C3#   0-0-2   ax
36   143.36 Hz   D3   1-0-2   tan
37   143.85 Hz   D3   5-1-0   tan
38   144.12 Hz   D3   3-3-0   tan
39   146.04 Hz   D3   0-1-2   tan
40   147.94 Hz   D3   2-3-1   obl
41   148.64 Hz   D3   1-1-2   obl

Two traps at 79Hz and 87Hz and the room is really flat... for a room. Convergent oblique and tangent modes are relatively benign.  It is those axial suckers that just kill a space!
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: rpf on October 02, 2021, 09:01:03 AM
Charles, are you insulating the new walls? A good idea for both energy savings and sound absorption obviously. If they're exterior (basement) walls use foam board, not fiberglass or Rockwool (you want a vapor impermeable material to prevent condensation occurring and mold forming on the concrete walls). If they're interior walls use Rockwool, which is far superior to fiberglass in every way, albeit a little more expensive.
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: rollo on October 02, 2021, 11:52:58 AM
  Thanks Dave and Robert. Very helpful.

charles
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: rollo on October 02, 2021, 11:55:00 AM
  Well, we are all demolished. Down to bare foundation walls. It appears a new room 13 x 22 x 8 will be had. Not doing entire space rebuild. Going to either Qln Prestige 3 or 1 speakers.
  Open rafter ceiling with wool carpet over masonite and concrete slab. Five dedicated 15A and 20A lines. Two layers 5/8" th. sheetrock over metal studs which will be grounded. Insurance companies coming along as well as unsuspected FEMA money. Thank you for your prayers.

charles

  I can do 12x18x8 as well.

charles
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: tmazz on October 02, 2021, 12:22:03 PM
I just noticed that Charles mentioned he will be rebuilding his room doing metal studs.

My gut reaction to that is how sturdy are metal studs as compared to wood 2x4s?

I know that structurally they will hold a load, but are they any more susceptible to vibration than wood studs?

Anybody have any thoughts on this?

Also, here is an article on the different types of sheetrock and their usability  for soundproofing:

https://soundproofsilence.com/quietrock-vs-double-drywall/

Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: BobM on October 03, 2021, 04:43:17 AM
I guess you could pack the walls with insulation to help dampen any ringing that might occur, but in a basement wall that could be a recipe for disaster with dampness and mold. Charles, I suppose you will be wire brushing the concrete to remove all traces of mold or decay and applying a waterproofing barrier of some sort over the concrete, maybe a moisture paint? Perhaps you could wrap the metal studs with something before constructing the wall support.
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: P.I. on October 03, 2021, 09:27:35 AM
I guess you could pack the walls with insulation to help dampen any ringing that might occur, but in a basement wall that could be a recipe for disaster with dampness and mold. Charles, I suppose you will be wire brushing the concrete to remove all traces of mold or decay and applying a waterproofing barrier of some sort over the concrete, maybe a moisture paint? Perhaps you could wrap the metal studs with something before constructing the wall support.
Steel studs are actually better for use in making walls with high transmission loss.  See this:

https://soundproofingcalculator.com/comparison-steel-studs-vs-wood-studs/

It is essential to to stuff the walls with insulation or better yet use spray urethane foam.  There are admixtures that can be used to eliminate any possibility of mold in basements and other high humidity locations. 
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: rpf on October 03, 2021, 10:50:53 PM
The studs on the exterior walls should be interior to the foam insulation (spray or Poly-Iso, XPS, or EPS boards) so they don't conduct heat to the cold concrete surface, leading to condensation. If not using spray foam (which I really don't like for various reasons) the foam boards can be attached with a compatible adhesive, or Hilti IDP or Rodenhouse Plasti-Grip PMF fasteners. Code is R-10 for basement walls in Zone 4 so roughly 2" of foam will suffice, depending on the type used. I think you could then be able to stuff the stud walls with Rockwool for sound absorption, though it might be prudent to leave an inch air gap between the stud wall/Rockwool and the foam insulation. Rockwool is manufactured in sizes for metal as well as wood studs, though you may have to order the former. The latter is in all of the big box stores and in many lumber yards now.
PS: seal the seams/perimeter of the foam boards with a high quality caulk, sealing tape, or canned spray foam.
PPS: most of the above info came from: https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com (https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com), a great info source for high quality, energy efficient building. Other great sources of info are https://www.buildingscience.com (https://www.buildingscience.com) and Matt Risinger's channel on YouTube.
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: P.I. on October 04, 2021, 11:47:36 AM
The studs on the exterior walls should be interior to the foam insulation (spray or Poly-Iso, XPS, or EPS boards) so they don't conduct heat to the cold concrete surface, leading to condensation. If not using spray foam (which I really don't like for various reasons) the foam boards can be attached with a compatible adhesive, or Hilti IDP or Rodenhouse Plasti-Grip PMF fasteners. Code is R-10 for basement walls in Zone 4 so roughly 2" of foam will suffice, depending on the type used.https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com (https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com), a great info source for high quality, energy efficient building. Other great sources of info are https://www.buildingscience.com (https://www.buildingscience.com) and Matt Risinger's channel on YouTube.
The reason I recommended the spray foam is from prior experience with a client some years ago. 

He went with the stud/rockwool (great stuff roackwool as is the recyled denim product) in Wisconsin and subsequently had ground water and black mold issues.  This was after he treated the concrete walls with a fungicide.  With the proper open cell foam with fungistat inclusions his issues were finally resolved.  Kind of a long way around...

I am always trying to expand my knowledge base and advice from others is a grat way for me to do so.  My curiosity in piqued.  What is it that you don't like about the spray foam application?  An inquiring mind (what's let of it) wants to know.   :lol:
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: _Scotty_ on October 04, 2021, 02:31:49 PM
It appears that there are two types of spray in foam available closed cell and open cell.
Open cell foam is remarkably sound absorbent. If sprayed between the studs in the rebuilt wall
it may prove to be highly effective at keeping the sound from escaping your listening
room.
Scotty
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: rpf on October 04, 2021, 02:46:24 PM
"The reason I recommended the spray foam is from prior experience with a client some years ago. 

He went with the stud/rockwool (great stuff roackwool as is the recyled denim product) in Wisconsin and subsequently had ground water and black mold issues.  This was after he treated the concrete walls with a fungicide.  With the proper open cell foam with fungistat inclusions his issues were finally resolved.  Kind of a long way around..."

Which is why I stated that (closed cell) foam, which is vapor impermeable, had to be used against the concrete, and then a stud wall (filled with Rockwool, which is vapor permeable) erected in front of the foam (with an air gap between them).

I'm not a big fan of foam in general. Aside from the greenhouse gas issues, most, if not all, of them give off toxic fumes when exposed to flame. And they burn at around 750 degrees F, much less than the 1100 degree temperature of a typical house fire. They are also prone to insect infestation (at least when used on a building exterior). Neither of these deficits should be a problem on an interior basement wall with a layer of sheetrock sandwiching the foam (and fire stops above it) and foam is the only thing that can be used in that location. As to spray foam, there are additional issues in that it has to be applied very carefully - and often is not. Also it hides leaks and is difficult and messy to remove if necessary for repair or renovation. Foam boards are less of a problem in these ways.

I am a fan of Rockwool. I've used it in both residential and commercial, interior and exterior locations and the benefits include:
0% smoke production, 0% combustible. It simply melts - but at over 2100 degrees F. Mineral wool, such as Rockwool or Thermafiber, is required in the interior walls of high rises in many locations because of its ability to retard fire spread.
Sheds water, doesn't support mold growth.
Deters insects and rodents (unlike foam which carpenter ants and other insects love, and fiberglass, which rodents love).
Has a reasonably high R value of 4.2/inch.
Doesn't degrade, unlike fiberglass which compresses over time. I've found fiberglass batts in walls and ceilings of 50-60 year old homes that were completely flat. I think fiberglass is pretty useless as insulation due to the above facts and because it melts at a low temperature (1000 degrees or so) and falls apart when wet.   

Sorry for the long rant.
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: P.I. on October 04, 2021, 06:13:59 PM
"The reason I recommended the spray foam is from prior experience with a client some years ago. 

He went with the stud/rockwool (great stuff roackwool as is the recyled denim product) in Wisconsin and subsequently had ground water and black mold issues.  This was after he treated the concrete walls with a fungicide.  With the proper open cell foam with fungistat inclusions his issues were finally resolved.  Kind of a long way around..."

Which is why I stated that (closed cell) foam, which is vapor impermeable, had to be used against the concrete, and then a stud wall (filled with Rockwool, which is vapor permeable) erected in front of the foam (with an air gap between them).

I'm not a big fan of foam in general. Aside from the greenhouse gas issues, most, if not all, of them give off toxic fumes when exposed to flame. And they burn at around 750 degrees F, much less than the 1100 degree temperature of a typical house fire. They are also prone to insect infestation (at least when used on a building exterior). Neither of these deficits should be a problem on an interior basement wall with a layer of sheetrock sandwiching the foam (and fire stops above it) and foam is the only thing that can be used in that location. As to spray foam, there are additional issues in that it has to be applied very carefully - and often is not. Also it hides leaks and is difficult and messy to remove if necessary for repair or renovation. Foam boards are less of a problem in these ways.

I am a fan of Rockwool. I've used it in both residential and commercial, interior and exterior locations and the benefits include:
0% smoke production, 0% combustible. It simply melts - but at over 2100 degrees F. Mineral wool, such as Rockwool or Thermafiber, is required in the interior walls of high rises in many locations because of its ability to retard fire spread.
Sheds water, doesn't support mold growth.
Deters insects and rodents (unlike foam which carpenter ants and other insects love, and fiberglass, which rodents love).
Has a reasonably high R value of 4.2/inch.
Doesn't degrade, unlike fiberglass which compresses over time. I've found fiberglass batts in walls and ceilings of 50-60 year old homes that were completely flat. I think fiberglass is pretty useless as insulation due to the above facts and because it melts at a low temperature (1000 degrees or so) and falls apart when wet.   

Sorry for the long rant.
I totally get it.  I'm a big fan of rock wool over FG.  FG is pretty much worthless in an acoustic context.

I suggested the open cell foam because it is a basement application.  Above ground is a completely different animal. Since the typical basement temperature hovers around 55 degrees no matter what, open cell foam between studs seems to be a great alternative.  There are many "green friendly" zero and low VOC spray foam alternatives available in 2021.

It all comes down to performance and personal choice.
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: rpf on October 04, 2021, 07:54:57 PM


[/quote]I totally get it.  I'm a big fan of rock wool over FG.  FG is pretty much worthless in an acoustic context.

I suggested the open cell foam because it is a basement application.  Above ground is a completely different animal. Since the typical basement temperature hovers around 55 degrees no matter what, open cell foam between studs seems to be a great alternative.  There are many "green friendly" zero and low VOC spray foam alternatives available in 2021.

It all comes down to performance and personal choice.
[/quote]

Unless the finished basement is heated, as many in the North are. Then there could be enough temperature differential between the concrete in contact with frozen ground and the air in the basement to cause condensation on the concrete. In which case you'd want vapor impermeable (closed cell) insulation.

I've read that there are new "green friendly" foams coming out but haven't looked into them yet. I would choose Rockwool over foam wherever possible anyway for the other reasons I mentioned above.
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: rollo on October 06, 2021, 02:29:19 PM
I guess you could pack the walls with insulation to help dampen any ringing that might occur, but in a basement wall that could be a recipe for disaster with dampness and mold. Charles, I suppose you will be wire brushing the concrete to remove all traces of mold or decay and applying a waterproofing barrier of some sort over the concrete, maybe a moisture paint? Perhaps you could wrap the metal studs with something before constructing the wall support.


  Yes Bob all cleaned. Now scrape walls and apply Thoro-Seal to foundation walls. The metal studs will not ring 12"OC and will be grounded as well.  There will be rigid foam foam insulation stuffed in between studs. Two layer 5/8" SR over studs. Floor is Concrete. So a vapor barrier, then masonite then pad and wool carpet. Clg will be open wood rafters. At rear of room a open stair with treads only on a center support which will act as a difussor.





charles
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: P.I. on October 07, 2021, 12:50:20 AM
I guess you could pack the walls with insulation to help dampen any ringing that might occur, but in a basement wall that could be a recipe for disaster with dampness and mold. Charles, I suppose you will be wire brushing the concrete to remove all traces of mold or decay and applying a waterproofing barrier of some sort over the concrete, maybe a moisture paint? Perhaps you could wrap the metal studs with something before constructing the wall support.


  Yes Bob all cleaned. Now scrape walls and apply Thoro-Seal to foundation walls. The metal studs will not ring 12"OC and will be grounded as well.  There will be rigid foam foam insulation stuffed in between studs. Two layer 5/8" SR over studs. Floor is Concrete. So a vapor barrier, then masonite then pad and wool carpet. Clg will be open wood rafters. At rear of room a open stair with treads only on a center support which will act as a difussor.





charles
Nice, well thought out. I'm happy you have a contractor that gets IT.   :thumb:
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: Nick B on October 07, 2021, 08:50:04 AM
I guess you could pack the walls with insulation to help dampen any ringing that might occur, but in a basement wall that could be a recipe for disaster with dampness and mold. Charles, I suppose you will be wire brushing the concrete to remove all traces of mold or decay and applying a waterproofing barrier of some sort over the concrete, maybe a moisture paint? Perhaps you could wrap the metal studs with something before constructing the wall support.


  Yes Bob all cleaned. Now scrape walls and apply Thoro-Seal to foundation walls. The metal studs will not ring 12"OC and will be grounded as well.  There will be rigid foam foam insulation stuffed in between studs. Two layer 5/8" SR over studs. Floor is Concrete. So a vapor barrier, then masonite then pad and wool carpet. Clg will be open wood rafters. At rear of room a open stair with treads only on a center support which will act as a difussor.





charles

Really excellent progress, Charles. Will you be able to duplicate acoustically what you had before or will you need to use a mic and software to fine tune things?
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: jimbones on October 08, 2021, 12:58:34 PM
Nice Bunker...er listening room  8)
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: P.I. on October 08, 2021, 02:48:44 PM
Nice Bunker...er listening room  8)
:thumb:
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: rollo on October 12, 2021, 09:44:02 AM
I guess you could pack the walls with insulation to help dampen any ringing that might occur, but in a basement wall that could be a recipe for disaster with dampness and mold. Charles, I suppose you will be wire brushing the concrete to remove all traces of mold or decay and applying a waterproofing barrier of some sort over the concrete, maybe a moisture paint? Perhaps you could wrap the metal studs with something before constructing the wall support.


  Yes Bob all cleaned. Now scrape walls and apply Thoro-Seal to foundation walls. The metal studs will not ring 12"OC and will be grounded as well.  There will be rigid foam foam insulation stuffed in between studs. Two layer 5/8" SR over studs. Floor is Concrete. So a vapor barrier, then masonite then pad and wool carpet. Clg will be open wood rafters. At rear of room a open stair with treads only on a center support which will act as a difussor.





charles
Nice, well thought out. I'm happy you have a contractor that gets IT.   :thumb:


  I am the construction Mgr. Hiring each trade separately. Adding one more dedicated line as well for a total of five.

charles
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: rollo on October 12, 2021, 09:47:22 AM
I guess you could pack the walls with insulation to help dampen any ringing that might occur, but in a basement wall that could be a recipe for disaster with dampness and mold. Charles, I suppose you will be wire brushing the concrete to remove all traces of mold or decay and applying a waterproofing barrier of some sort over the concrete, maybe a moisture paint? Perhaps you could wrap the metal studs with something before constructing the wall support.


  Yes Bob all cleaned. Now scrape walls and apply Thoro-Seal to foundation walls. The metal studs will not ring 12"OC and will be grounded as well.  There will be rigid foam foam insulation stuffed in between studs. Two layer 5/8" SR over studs. Floor is Concrete. So a vapor barrier, then masonite then pad and wool carpet. Clg will be open wood rafters. At rear of room a open stair with treads only on a center support which will act as a difussor.





charles

Really excellent progress, Charles. Will you be able to duplicate acoustically what you had before or will you need to use a mic and software to fine tune things?


    Once constructed a Spectrum analyzer will be used. Then tame any dips or bumps with acoustic treatments. The key in any room is having a speaker that compliments the room size. So many use a speaker that is too large. Most likely Qln Prestige 3. Liking the Von Langa lline as well.

charles

Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: rollo on October 12, 2021, 09:48:50 AM
Nice Bunker...er listening room  8)


 Both .

charles
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: Nick B on October 12, 2021, 10:50:22 AM
I guess you could pack the walls with insulation to help dampen any ringing that might occur, but in a basement wall that could be a recipe for disaster with dampness and mold. Charles, I suppose you will be wire brushing the concrete to remove all traces of mold or decay and applying a waterproofing barrier of some sort over the concrete, maybe a moisture paint? Perhaps you could wrap the metal studs with something before constructing the wall support.


  Yes Bob all cleaned. Now scrape walls and apply Thoro-Seal to foundation walls. The metal studs will not ring 12"OC and will be grounded as well.  There will be rigid foam foam insulation stuffed in between studs. Two layer 5/8" SR over studs. Floor is Concrete. So a vapor barrier, then masonite then pad and wool carpet. Clg will be open wood rafters. At rear of room a open stair with treads only on a center support which will act as a difussor.





charles

Really excellent progress, Charles. Will you be able to duplicate acoustically what you had before or will you need to use a mic and software to fine tune things?


    Once constructed a Spectrum analyzer will be used. Then tame any dips or bumps with acoustic treatments. The key in any room is having a speaker that compliments the room size. So many use a speaker that is too large. Most likely Qln Prestige 3. Liking the Von Langa lline as well.

charles

Thanks, Charles. Do let us know what speakers you choose. Had not heard of Von Langa, so here’s a link for those interested
https://wolfvonlanga.com/
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: P.I. on October 12, 2021, 11:07:18 AM
Great progress, Charles.  The 12" OC stud spacing is a great way to get those walls stiff and the open rafters are perfect for ceiling refelction control.  For the ceiling first  reflection point, angling rigid FG board (703 or ductboard) with the low point away from the speakers between the rafters is a killer way to control reflections.

You can also use the spaces between the rafters to build 1/4 wave bass traps to control the room modes.  Open rafters rock!

You are doing a very good thing here!   :thumb:
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: Jack on October 12, 2021, 07:26:40 PM
Charles

The Prestige 3 seems like a great choice.  I have been looking long and hard at both them and the Prestige 5 for a few months now even though I have no need for new speakers at either house.  Dave McNair's recently released review of the Prestige 5 last Friday is making it harder to resist. For those who haven't seen or read the review.  Dave loves them with Frank's newest mono block amps. 

https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2021/10/08/qln-prestige-five-loudspeaker-review/

Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: Nick B on October 12, 2021, 11:05:46 PM
Charles

The Prestige 3 seems like a great choice.  I have been looking long and hard at both them and the Prestige 5 for a few months now even though I have no need for new speakers at either house.  Dave McNair's recently released review of the Prestige 5 last Friday is making it harder to resist. For those who haven't seen or read the review.  Dave loves them with Frank's newest mono block amps. 

https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2021/10/08/qln-prestige-five-loudspeaker-review/

Thanks for posting, Jack. Hadn’t read that one yet. I enjoy reading PTA including Dave’s reviews.
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: rollo on October 15, 2021, 11:29:47 AM
Charles

The Prestige 3 seems like a great choice.  I have been looking long and hard at both them and the Prestige 5 for a few months now even though I have no need for new speakers at either house.  Dave McNair's recently released review of the Prestige 5 last Friday is making it harder to resist. For those who haven't seen or read the review.  Dave loves them with Frank's newest mono block amps. 

https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2021/10/08/qln-prestige-five-loudspeaker-review/

  I am a Qln dealer. We have a pair of Prestige 3 using Lamm Electronics in our Astoria listening room. Superb sound.

charles
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: Jack on October 15, 2021, 05:53:12 PM
Oh, I'm aware.  So far I am showing restraint and really need to sell about four other pair at least. How long that lasts time will tell.
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: Nick B on October 15, 2021, 11:30:51 PM
Oh, I'm aware.  So far I am showing restraint and really need to sell about four other pair at least. How long that lasts time will tell.

Jack,
Just wonderin’…. as to the Qln, would you be leaning toward the 3 or the 5??
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: Jack on October 16, 2021, 02:27:15 PM
Nick

If I knew that their final resting place was going to be then the 5's would be the choice.  Based on Dave's review though they might over power both rooms at both current houses thought it's not my intention that either house will be then end of the line.  I have time though to figure it out.
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: Nick B on October 16, 2021, 05:49:45 PM
Nick

If I knew that their final resting place was going to be then the 5's would be the choice.  Based on Dave's review though they might over power both rooms at both current houses thought it's not my intention that either house will be then end of the line.  I have time though to figure it out.

OK, Jack. Fortunately, I’ve always had very adequately sized rooms over the years.
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: Jack on October 16, 2021, 06:11:09 PM
Nick

The 5"s in addition to being double rear ported are themselves 24 inches deep so a starting point would have the front of the speakers 48" into the room.  As they are both dedicated rooms I can manage that as no one else really goes in either room and they are no visible to rest of the house's general living area.  What concerns me would be the distance to the sidewalls which would be between 2-2 1/2 feet. They are not at all under consideration for the house in Florida as that would eventually just result in a multi-state move.  So the questions are concerning the current SC room or a future room. If like me you've seen all the pictures on various forums of the "giant" speakers crammed in to what look like spare bedrooms then I guess anything is possible if you want it to be. The current room in SC is pretty much the same size as the room Charles is re-building.  I've got time to see how it shakes out plus the Verity Otello's and Nola KO's sitting in Florida are pretty good speakers in there own right. 
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: Nick B on October 16, 2021, 10:14:29 PM
Nick

The 5"s in addition to being double rear ported are themselves 24 inches deep so a starting point would have the front of the speakers 48" into the room.  As they are both dedicated rooms I can manage that as no one else really goes in either room and they are no visible to rest of the house's general living area.  What concerns me would be the distance to the sidewalls which would be between 2-2 1/2 feet. They are not at all under consideration for the house in Florida as that would eventually just result in a multi-state move.  So the questions are concerning the current SC room or a future room. If like me you've seen all the pictures on various forums of the "giant" speakers crammed in to what look like spare bedrooms then I guess anything is possible if you want it to be. The current room in SC is pretty much the same size as the room Charles is re-building.  I've got time to see how it shakes out plus the Verity Otello's and Nola KO's sitting in Florida are pretty good speakers in there own right.

Jack,

That’s a good-sized footprint on those Qln’s. I have indeed seen many mismatches of speakers vs rooms. It’s nice not to be in a hurry when you have the Verity’s and Nola’s  :thumb:
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: Jack on October 17, 2021, 09:12:39 AM
Before this eventual move is done the years of gear hoarding will come back to haunt me I think.  With the current state of the shipping industry trying to sell and ship speakers especially can become a nightmare in short order. 
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: Nick B on October 17, 2021, 10:53:22 AM
Before this eventual move is done the years of gear hoarding will come back to haunt me I think.  With the current state of the shipping industry trying to sell and ship speakers especially can become a nightmare in short order.

I think the last floorstanding speaker I shipped was well over 10 years ago…a Zalytron as I recall. Getting them boxed and ready was a pain, but the shipping went well. I used Yellow Freight
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: rollo on October 17, 2021, 11:13:31 AM
Nick

The 5"s in addition to being double rear ported are themselves 24 inches deep so a starting point would have the front of the speakers 48" into the room.  As they are both dedicated rooms I can manage that as no one else really goes in either room and they are no visible to rest of the house's general living area.  What concerns me would be the distance to the sidewalls which would be between 2-2 1/2 feet. They are not at all under consideration for the house in Florida as that would eventually just result in a multi-state move.  So the questions are concerning the current SC room or a future room. If like me you've seen all the pictures on various forums of the "giant" speakers crammed in to what look like spare bedrooms then I guess anything is possible if you want it to be. The current room in SC is pretty much the same size as the room Charles is re-building.  I've got time to see how it shakes out plus the Verity Otello's and Nola KO's sitting in Florida are pretty good speakers in there own right.

  Can you get 9 ft center to center ?

charles
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: tmazz on October 17, 2021, 11:22:47 AM
Zylatron, wow, that's a blast from the past. They were located about three blocks from my high school.
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: Nick B on October 17, 2021, 12:04:40 PM
Zylatron, wow, that's a blast from the past. They were located about three blocks from my high school.

I think I sold those in 2008 and pretty sure I replaced them with the SP Tech 2.0s. Can’t recall yet what I owned before the Zalytrons.

Just for the heck of it, I’m trying to come up with a list of all the gear I’ve ever owned and that goes back to the 70s. I started it recently and I’ve come up with quite a bit already…
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: Jack on October 17, 2021, 12:08:08 PM
Charles

In the current SC room 8 feet would be pushing it.
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: James Edward on October 17, 2021, 01:19:39 PM
Zylatron, wow, that's a blast from the past. They were located about three blocks from my high school.
I grew up in East Meadow NY- Zalytron was a short ride away- bought mainly car stuff at the time.
Please tell me someone reading this for the locale remembers ‘Big Julies’ in Hempstead!…
Jim
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: P.I. on October 17, 2021, 04:58:24 PM
Zalytron!

I bought a lot of drivers and parts from them BITD!  Elliott was a piece of work... 8)
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: Nick B on October 17, 2021, 06:06:27 PM
I was reading a little bit about Zalytron to refresh my memory and it seems like they just sold parts… drivers and kits. But I bought a completed product, likely a two-way with a 7” driver as I recall, and I sure thought I bought it directly from them. Anyway, it was a long time ago…
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: tmazz on October 17, 2021, 08:28:26 PM
They probably were mostly known for selling raw drivers, but thaty also had a whole showroom full of completed speakers available for sale.

And Dave you are right, Elliot was quite a character.
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: BobM on October 18, 2021, 05:22:05 AM
Zylatron, wow, that's a blast from the past. They were located about three blocks from my high school.
I grew up in East Meadow NY- Zalytron was a short ride away- bought mainly car stuff at the time.
Please tell me someone reading this for the locale remembers ‘Big Julies’ in Hempstead!…
Jim

I was in East Meadow too and of course I visited Elliott. Almost got a speaker from him but decided to buy it from Just Speakers instead. I still have them and they still sound great. Both those guys built speakers that crushed the commercial brands in terms of sound and price.
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: rollo on October 18, 2021, 08:55:35 AM
Zalytron!

I bought a lot of drivers and parts from them BITD!  Elliott was a piece of work... 8)

  Out of His mind. A great Cab builder though. Was there numerous times. Had some VG sounding speakers there.

charles
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: P.I. on October 18, 2021, 09:56:30 AM
And Dave you are right, Elliot was quite a character.
I spoke to him over the phone on several occasions.  I never knew which Elliott I was going to get!
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: rollo on October 19, 2021, 09:49:28 AM
  Ok narrowing down the speaker choices.  :duh :duh Settling on the speaker type is giving me lots of thought. Do I stay with Rethm 100db single driver type? Go to a two way floor mount  Qln Prestige 3 ? MBL 120 omni ? Muraudio Electrostatic, Wolf Von Langa Field Coil ? Or TAD stand mounts. ?????
  All will fit in new room. I have several Amps for Single driver and Arion HS 500 Hybrid Class "D" mono blocks 500W into 8Ohm 1000W into 4 Ohm load.Challenged at this point.

charles
Title: Re: Pray for Rollo
Post by: goldlizsts on October 24, 2021, 06:25:56 AM
Ditto all the best wishes! :thumb: