AudioNervosa

Systemic Development => Amplification and Preamplification => Topic started by: Nick B on December 03, 2019, 04:10:43 PM

Title: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
Post by: Nick B on December 03, 2019, 04:10:43 PM
As I’ve mentioned in another thread, I’m very happy with the new Fritz Carraras.
These “tiny tots” are mighty fine... I now have a more holographic presentation and it’s more fun to listen to. I’m getting very good sound nowadays using the ICE stereo power amp 1200as2 along with the Border Patrol SE nos dac and the somewhat quirky, but excellent sounding Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp. That beryllium tweeter retrieves detail beautifully and without harshness. It’s especially and surprisingly nice on older and somewhat poorly recorded material.

There are two issues, though, that I’d like to improve. One is some remaining harshness on vocals and some instruments that I think might be the ICE amp and the other is some boominess in the bass that is room related. Maybe they’re both room related. I’ve never, ever used room treatments, but I’m trying to learn as much as I can. I’ve previously mentioned here that I sent Dave...Mr Uber  :thumb: and Greg Rael who does the PI Audio room treatments, some pics of my room. They both expressed their sadness as to my room parameters and choice of speaker placement 😢 Doug s also has looked at the room pics and offered a suggestion.

So there are a few ways to proceed. One is to try another amp, or even an integrated, and see if I can get rid of that bit of harshness. Very likely it would be tube or at least a solid state that has a reputation for a tubelike presentation. As I live alone nowadays, I could dramatically change speaker placement so they would fire into the horizontal or short side of the room layout rather than the long side of the room. By changing to the short side/horizontal placement, both Fritzes would not have a close boundary wall on either side. So altering the placement is doable, but not preferable.

Based on some research on my part and some helpful suggestions from members here, there are a few companies that quite interest me as to amps, preamps and integrateds.  Those would be Audio Hungary, Microzotl, Don Sachs and NAT. I’ve also had a couple of offers to send me amps for evaluation which I very much appreciate.

So I’m open to suggestions on equipment and any other thoughts you may have.
By the way, room dimensions are about
17’W x 26’L x 11’H open floor plan room
Title: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
Post by: Guy 13 on December 03, 2019, 06:19:35 PM
As I’ve mentioned in another thread, I’m very happy with the new Fritz Carraras.
These “tiny tots” are mighty fine... I now have a more holographic presentation and it’s more fun to listen to. I’m getting very good sound nowadays using the ICE stereo power amp 1200as2 along with the Border Patrol SE nos dac and the somewhat quirky, but excellent sounding Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp. That beryllium tweeter retrieves detail beautifully and without harshness. It’s especially and surprisingly nice on older and somewhat poorly recorded material.

There are two issues, though, that I’d like to improve. One is some remaining harshness on vocals and some instruments that I think might be the ICE amp and the other is some boominess in the bass that is room related. Maybe they’re both room related. I’ve never, ever used room treatments, but I’m trying to learn as much as I can. I’ve previously mentioned here that I sent Dave...Mr Uber  :thumb: and Greg Rael who does the PI Audio room treatments, some pics of my room. They both expressed their sadness as to my room parameters and choice of speaker placement 😢 Doug s also has looked at the room pics and offered a suggestion.

So there are a few ways to proceed. One is to try another amp, or even an integrated, and see if I can get rid of that bit of harshness. Very likely it would be tube or at least a solid state that has a reputation for a tubelike presentation. As I live alone nowadays, I could dramatically change speaker placement so they would fire into the horizontal or short side of the room layout rather than the long side of the room. By changing to the short side/horizontal placement, both Fritzes would not have a close boundary wall on either side. So altering the placement is doable, but not preferable.

Based on some research on my part and some helpful suggestions from members here, there are a few companies that quite interest me as to amps, preamps and integrateds.  Those would be Audio Hungary, Microzotl, Don Sachs and NAT. I’ve also had a couple of offers to send me amps for evaluation which I very much appreciate.

So I’m open to suggestions on equipment and any other thoughts you may have.
By the way, room dimensions are about
17’W x 26’L x 11’H open floor plan room

Hi,
that's quite a large room you have.
Just saying.
My dedicated listening room is :
15' wide X 23' long and 9.5' high.

Guy 13
Title: Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
Post by: mresseguie on December 03, 2019, 07:09:08 PM
Nick,

Call the folks at GIK Acoustics and supply them some information about your listening room. I'll bet they can suggest some treatment that will be considerably less expensive than trying different amplifiers. [Make sure you buy the diffusor from Greg and Dave.]

Michael

P.S. We will fly directly from ATL to Taiwan this Sunday, so my offer will have to wait until next April. Start lifting weights.  :thumb:
Title: Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
Post by: Folsom on December 03, 2019, 07:13:42 PM
Well Nick the number one thing I still suggest is trying that little tiny amp (https://www.amazon.com/eSynic-Bluetooth-Amplifier-Headphone-Wireless/dp/B07X6DLXJK/ref=sr_1_14?keywords=amplifier+50w&qid=1575428918&sr=8-14) just to diagnose where you're woes come from. It can rule out the amp or preamp.

What metallurgy are your cables? Can you talk about them? Do you have enough regular IEC cables that aren't audiophile ones to swap in and check?

Are you more about 3D sound, holographic type sound, soundstage, or more about timbre, dynamics, resolution? 

IME I've never heard a stereo that sounded fatiguing or bad due to the room. The room can be changes to improve a stereo, as well know, but it won't radically remake a stereo.
Title: Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
Post by: Nick B on December 03, 2019, 09:06:59 PM
As I’ve mentioned in another thread, I’m very happy with the new Fritz Carraras.
These “tiny tots” are mighty fine... I now have a more holographic presentation and it’s more fun to listen to. I’m getting very good sound nowadays using the ICE stereo power amp 1200as2 along with the Border Patrol SE nos dac and the somewhat quirky, but excellent sounding Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp. That beryllium tweeter retrieves detail beautifully and without harshness. It’s especially and surprisingly nice on older and somewhat poorly recorded material.

There are two issues, though, that I’d like to improve. One is some remaining harshness on vocals and some instruments that I think might be the ICE amp and the other is some boominess in the bass that is room related. Maybe they’re both room related. I’ve never, ever used room treatments, but I’m trying to learn as much as I can. I’ve previously mentioned here that I sent Dave...Mr Uber  :thumb: and Greg Rael who does the PI Audio room treatments, some pics of my room. They both expressed their sadness as to my room parameters and choice of speaker placement 😢 Doug s also has looked at the room pics and offered a suggestion.

So there are a few ways to proceed. One is to try another amp, or even an integrated, and see if I can get rid of that bit of harshness. Very likely it would be tube or at least a solid state that has a reputation for a tubelike presentation. As I live alone nowadays, I could dramatically change speaker placement so they would fire into the horizontal or short side of the room layout rather than the long side of the room. By changing to the short side/horizontal placement, both Fritzes would not have a close boundary wall on either side. So altering the placement is doable, but not preferable.

Based on some research on my part and some helpful suggestions from members here, there are a few companies that quite interest me as to amps, preamps and integrateds.  Those would be Audio Hungary, Microzotl, Don Sachs and NAT. I’ve also had a couple of offers to send me amps for evaluation which I very much appreciate.

So I’m open to suggestions on equipment and any other thoughts you may have.
By the way, room dimensions are about
17’W x 26’L x 11’H open floor plan room

Hi,
that's quite a large room you have.
Just saying.
My dedicated listening room is :
15' wide X 23' long and 9.5' high.

Guy 13

Yes, Guy. A bit bigger than I’d like, but the other rooms are quite small. It has worked for me since 2003 🎶🎶
Nick
Title: Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
Post by: Nick B on December 03, 2019, 09:14:01 PM
Nick,

Call the folks at GIK Acoustics and supply them some information about your listening room. I'll bet they can suggest some treatment that will be considerably less expensive than trying different amplifiers. [Make sure you buy the diffusor from Greg and Dave.]

Michael

P.S. We will fly directly from ATL to Taiwan this Sunday, so my offer will have to wait until next April. Start lifting weights.  :thumb:

Michael,
Have a good trip! I am mentally lifting weights as I write this 😃🏋️  I’ll look into GIK and revisit this issue with PI. My hunch is it’s room acoustics and the amp... As to that Kootenay, I’m sure it would sound great, but am quite concerned about the weight. The Audio Hungary APX 200 amp weighs mid 60s or more. Ugh
Nick
Title: Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
Post by: Nick B on December 03, 2019, 09:49:42 PM
Well Nick the number one thing I still suggest is trying that little tiny amp (https://www.amazon.com/eSynic-Bluetooth-Amplifier-Headphone-Wireless/dp/B07X6DLXJK/ref=sr_1_14?keywords=amplifier+50w&qid=1575428918&sr=8-14) just to diagnose where you're woes come from. It can rule out the amp or preamp.

What metallurgy are your cables? Can you talk about them? Do you have enough regular IEC cables that aren't audiophile ones to swap in and check?

Are you more about 3D sound, holographic type sound, soundstage, or more about timbre, dynamics, resolution? 

IME I've never heard a stereo that sounded fatiguing or bad due to the room. The room can be changes to improve a stereo, as well know, but it won't radically remake a stereo.

Jeremy,
Your amp idea is good..and cheap. The amp you linked this time is different than the first one which I prefer. I’ve saved that link somewhere.
All cabling is copper and diy that a friend did for me. No ofc or occ stuff. Very, very thin gauge copper on the digital and ic’s all using rca’s. The power cords are mostly thick gauge solid copper and the speaker cable braided copper. Nothing is shielded. It’s probably very good, but I’d like to compare it to a couple of companies. I may have some inexpensive power cords somewhere, but I tend not to keep extra cables or equipment.
As to what type of musical presentation I prefer, it’s actually a combination of 3D holographic with timbre and resolution. What I’m getting now is certainly on the right track. The timbre is better now than anything I’ve experienced in 30+ years in this hobby. As to slam, I actually have more than I need or want. I’ve been startled more than a few times with the leading edge of transients. It’s certainly something I’m not used to and I don’t know if it’s an accurate portrayal or not.
As to your thoughts about amplification and listener fatigue due to room acoustics, I really don’t know. I’m sure you have much more experience than I do.
Title: Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
Post by: Folsom on December 04, 2019, 12:05:47 AM
Well, they're all the same, the little amps, to me. They're all ok for a toy background system or computer, but have an universality of sounding very easy.

You can have 3D with timbre and resolution but it's hard to enhance 3D without destroying the other ones at some point. You might greatly prefer some tinned copper interconnects (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Belden-8402-Switchcraft-3502A-3-ft-RCA-Interconnects-Pair-Audiophile-Musical/264342080270?hash=item3d8c040b0e:g:DdwAAOSw9ZZc7sSs) and speaker wire (https://www.wireandcableyourway.com/belden-9497-16-awg-2-conductor-high-conductivity-copper-speaker-cable-open-twisted-const.html) (you don't have to terminate them). I personally prefer it over basically everything but my own made stuff.

Your speakers can play well with surprisingly low amounts of power, so something like a fairly powerful SET isn't out of the question. But also a Firstwatt J2 might be an option.

I wish I could help more on the digital front end. I'm all TT because I haven't made a DAC yet.
Title: Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
Post by: Nick B on December 04, 2019, 12:30:03 AM
Well, they're all the same, the little amps, to me. They're all ok for a toy background system or computer, but have an universality of sounding very easy.

You can have 3D with timbre and resolution but it's hard to enhance 3D without destroying the other ones at some point. You might greatly prefer some tinned copper interconnects (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Belden-8402-Switchcraft-3502A-3-ft-RCA-Interconnects-Pair-Audiophile-Musical/264342080270?hash=item3d8c040b0e:g:DdwAAOSw9ZZc7sSs) and speaker wire (https://www.wireandcableyourway.com/belden-9497-16-awg-2-conductor-high-conductivity-copper-speaker-cable-open-twisted-const.html) (you don't have to terminate them). I personally prefer it over basically everything but my own made stuff.

Your speakers can play well with surprisingly low amounts of power, so something like a fairly powerful SET isn't out of the question. But also a Firstwatt J2 might be an option.

I wish I could help more on the digital front end. I'm all TT because I haven't made a DAC yet.

Thanks for the links. The prices are right. I’m not sure what I’ll do about wires and in what sequence of trying things. You’re right about the Fritzes not needing much power. Fritz tells me he’s run them with as little as 8 watts. I’ve never had a SET amp and it sounds quite appealing. I believe that Firstwatt J2 is a Nelson Pass creation. $4,000 retail and sold usually for $2,000 per HiFi Shark.
May I suggest you start designing that dac. It would be great fun to hear your amps and dac.
Title: Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
Post by: Folsom on December 04, 2019, 12:50:41 AM
I don't think I'd even start unless I had at least $10k min to put towards it. A DAC is a whole other thing... because I don't think they're even good, not really. It's a lot of work to unpack that mess.

Decware has some awfully pretty triode amps for not a ton of money. I was listening to the Qualition on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uzkepx0psQE), it's a nice sound if that's what you like. For me it's too airy, floaty, candy type sound.
Title: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
Post by: Guy 13 on December 04, 2019, 02:17:59 AM
I don't think I'd even start unless I had at least $10k min to put towards it. A DAC is a whole other thing... because I don't think they're even good, not really. It's a lot of work to unpack that mess.

Decware has some awfully pretty triode amps for not a ton of money. I was listening to the Qualition on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uzkepx0psQE), it's a nice sound if that's what you like. For me it's too airy, floaty, candy type sound.


Hi,
I also think that the music in the video is :
'' ....is too airy, floaty, candy type sound. ''
I have the Decware SE84C+ but only 2wpc,
need at least 95db speakers.

Guy 13
Title: Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
Post by: rollo on December 04, 2019, 06:56:27 AM
  Nick. You are lucky. That room size is close to perfect. Change it all around. That will change the memory of before as well as drastically improving your presentation. Speaker position, toe in etc can affect HF.
  I would let the speakers get 350 hours on them first. Change the room layout. Do not rush this. Time is on your side.

charles
Title: Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
Post by: Nick B on December 04, 2019, 09:36:34 AM
I agree a bit about this Qualiton YouTube video. If I go the AH Qualiton route, it would be because of the tonality and nice midrange.
I took a look at Decware. Nicely done website and it appears well respected products.
Title: Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
Post by: Nick B on December 04, 2019, 10:33:06 AM
  Nick. You are lucky. That room size is close to perfect. Change it all around. That will change the memory of before as well as drastically improving your presentation. Speaker position, toe in etc can affect HF.
  I would let the speakers get 350 hours on them first. Change the room layout. Do not rush this. Time is on your side.

charles

Charles,
Am slowly putting the hours on them. Will try and post a couple of pics. Its interesting that we both enjoy the Fritzes and Audio Hungary. Would be fun to hear some of your other products. Maybe at one of the shows if I can get adventurous and afford it.
Nick
Title: Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
Post by: Folsom on December 04, 2019, 11:51:40 AM
Nick you aren't near any shows! Hmm.
Title: Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
Post by: Nick B on December 04, 2019, 02:28:31 PM
Nick you aren't near any shows! Hmm.

Yes, Jeremy. Nothing close by except for CES in Las Vegas and I lost my connection to get a pass a few years ago. I do have family in So California and maybe there are some shows in Los Angeles or Orange County. I would like to do RMAF, but it would be quite a tab for hotel rooms and other expenses and would be at least a 12-14 hour drive.
Title: Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
Post by: Folsom on December 04, 2019, 05:22:05 PM
Ya, there's nothing cheap about shows. AirBnB might help. Honestly the sound is often bad. Finding locals to listen to their gear is a safe bet in many ways.
Title: Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
Post by: Nick B on December 04, 2019, 06:02:46 PM
Ya, there's nothing cheap about shows. AirBnB might help. Honestly the sound is often bad. Finding locals to listen to their gear is a safe bet in many ways.

Had a contractor here today and he’s traveling this weekend to Colorado to visit family. I mentioned RMAF in October and he chuckled and said don’t consider driving and there will be snow to deal with.
I’ll admit the sound is sometimes poor at shows, but the ones I’ve attended have been fun as I enjoy chatting with audio enthusiasts.
Title: Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
Post by: steve on December 05, 2019, 12:53:15 PM

Had a contractor here today and he’s traveling this weekend to Colorado to visit family. I mentioned RMAF in October and he chuckled and said don’t consider driving and there will be snow to deal with.
I’ll admit the sound is sometimes poor at shows, but the ones I’ve attended have been fun as I enjoy chatting with audio enthusiasts.

Nick, I have a few techniques/experiments that might help you. I did not read all the previous posts, so please forgive me if you have tried these.

1) Rotate the speakers just a smidgen, 1/16"/1/8" or so towards you and away from you to see how the sound reacts. Maybe also forwards and backwards as well. Just a tiny bit one way or the other may be enough to relieve the harshness. Another adjustment is spread the speakers slightly further apart, or closer together. Just a smidgen.

2) Move around the room near the floor, centered between the speakers, and find where the bass is
least/sound is thinner. Flop a pillow at that spot.

3) Different but similar to pt. 2. Try to find two spots near the floor, hopefully symmetrical to both your listening position and each speaker, and flop a pillow at each location. If we adjust the response reflections from one speaker, we want to do the same with the other speaker.

Just a thought, could be tedious, but an audiophile buddy Dan, has performed this to nice improvements.
Depending upon speaker, setup etc, one way may help and the other may exaggerate the condition you are experiencing. Also, other parameters will change a little as well. Maybe worth a try.

cheers and good luck with whichever you decide from suggestions in this string Nick.

steve

Title: Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
Post by: rollo on December 05, 2019, 12:58:47 PM
  There is one coming up in Tampa. Good weather good crowd.


charles
Title: Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
Post by: Nick B on December 05, 2019, 08:21:41 PM
Ya, there's nothing cheap about shows. AirBnB might help. Honestly the sound is often bad. Finding locals to listen to their gear is a safe bet in many ways.

Had a contractor here today and he’s traveling this weekend to Colorado to visit family. I mentioned RMAF in October and he chuckled and said don’t consider driving and there will be snow to deal with.
I’ll admit the sound is sometimes poor at shows, but the ones I’ve attended have been fun as I enjoy chatting with audio enthusiasts.

Nick, I have a couple of techniques/experiments that might help you. I did not read all the previous posts, so please forgive me if you have tried these.

1) Rotate the speakers just a smidgen, 1/16"/1/8" or so towards you and away from you to see how the sound reacts. Just a tiny bit one way or the other may be enough to relieve the harshness. Another adjustment is spread the speakers slightly further apart, or closer together. Just a smidgen.

2) Move around the room near the floor, centered between the speakers, and find where the bass is
least/sound is thinner. Flop a pillow at that spot.

3) Different but similar to pt. 2. Try to find two spots near the floor, hopefully symmetrical to both your listening position and each speaker, and flop a pillow at each location. If we adjust the response reflections from one speaker, we want to do the same with the other speaker.

Just a thought, could be tedious, but an audiophile buddy Dan, has performed this to nice improvements.
Depending upon speaker, setup etc, one way may help and the other may exaggerate the condition you are experiencing. Also, other parameters will change a little as well.

cheers and good luck with whichever you decide from suggestions in this string.

steve

Thanks, Steve.  I’ll give this a go. Part of the harshness issue I’m sure is some of those old, crummy recordings I listen to on Tidal. But it’s a sacrifice I readily make... This issue was also present with my McCormack DNA 1. I’m thinking a tube amp might also take the edge off so to speak.
I’ve heard that speaker placement can be quite critical, but fractions of an inch?  :shock: I have pillows, so no problem as to that suggestion. As for crawling around on the floor.. the subwoofer crawl as I’ve heard it named ...the hard part would be getting up. Old age creeping in.
I am curious about bass traps and that some of these can/should be placed at the wall and ceiling intersection. I thought bass waves remained at floor level, so the ceiling mention is puzzling. I continue to do some reading and watch videos regarding room treatments.
I appreciate your input.
Nick
Title: Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
Post by: Jack on December 05, 2019, 09:33:15 PM
Nick

If the high end harshness is only evident on certain recordings from Tidal then changing the amp won't alleviate the problem just soften it a bit.  There are plenty of recordings from "our era" that were originally recorded in Analog for vinyl whose transfers to digital didn't go well and no matter how many times they reissue them with supposed fixes it doesn't help.  I also found the playback of some of these recordings to be more forward and aggressive on Tidal than on Qobuz.  It may be worth subscribing to the 30 day trial for Qobuz Premier and see if that helps as it did here.  Also if you haven't upgraded the power supply on the Mini to an LPS that will also help.  When I was using my Mini I upgraded the power supply pretty quickly and it did help.  Also getting the rear edge of the Carrera's closer to 24" from the back wall will help with the "boom though on many recordings that is intentional.  Time on the drivers will also play a part. 
Title: Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
Post by: mdconnelly on December 06, 2019, 08:04:29 AM
Nick, perhaps you've already answered this earlier, but what kind of support are your speakers sitting on?  I've got a very different room and speakers, but  I was having a good bit of bass boominess and lack of clarity awhile back.   I replaced the spikes on my speakers with IsoAcoustics GAIA footers and all I can say is WOW.   Completely cleaned up the boom.   I also put the IsoAcoustics OREA footers under my Devialet which also improved things (but not as much as under the speakers).   Probably the best tweaks I've ever used.   Anyway, just a thought.
Title: Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
Post by: Nick B on December 06, 2019, 09:03:45 AM
Nick

If the high end harshness is only evident on certain recordings from Tidal then changing the amp won't alleviate the problem just soften it a bit.  There are plenty of recordings from "our era" that were originally recorded in Analog for vinyl whose transfers to digital didn't go well and no matter how many times they reissue them with supposed fixes it doesn't help.  I also found the playback of some of these recordings to be more forward and aggressive on Tidal than on Qobuz.  It may be worth subscribing to the 30 day trial for Qobuz Premier and see if that helps as it did here.  Also if you haven't upgraded the power supply on the Mini to an LPS that will also help.  When I was using my Mini I upgraded the power supply pretty quickly and it did help.  Also getting the rear edge of the Carrera's closer to 24" from the back wall will help with the "boom though on many recordings that is intentional.  Time on the drivers will also play a part.

Jack,
The harshness is partly based on poor recordings and forward and aggressive is a good description. There are recordings, though, from good performers on labels that have the same edginess.
For example, last night I was listening to the wonderful vocalists, acavoce. I was still able to enjoy the music. It’ll all work out.

I should give Qobuz another try as you suggest. Maybe after I’m done with holiday travel. As to the Auralic Mini, I have used a LPS from Mojo Audio. As I’m out of good power cords, I just use a stock cord. I moved the Carreras out more from the wall and will move them out more again tonight. The bass did improve and stabilize. I’m nearly at 200 hours now on the Carreras.
Nick
Title: Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
Post by: Nick B on December 06, 2019, 09:07:04 AM
nick, what's the toe-in on your speakers?  have you tried toeing them in so the intersection is a couple of feet in front of the listening position?

doug s.

Doug,
Very slight toe in. Only half an inch measurement difference from the wall. Have had more toe in previously. I haven’t toed them in nearly to the extent you suggest Will do so tonight.
Nick
Title: Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
Post by: Nick B on December 06, 2019, 09:14:32 AM
Nick, perhaps you've already answered this earlier, but what kind of support are your speakers sitting on?  I've got a very different room and speakers, but  I was having a good bit of bass boominess and lack of clarity awhile back.   I replaced the spikes on my speakers with IsoAcoustics GAIA footers and all I can say is WOW.   Completely cleaned up the boom.   I also put the IsoAcoustics OREA footers under my Devialet which also improved things (but not as much as under the speakers).   Probably the best tweaks I've ever used.   Anyway, just a thought.

I have them resting on a metal stand. No spikes under the speakers and none on the floor as the wall to wall carpeting has been replaced. Will take a look again at IsoAcoustics. Thanks, Nick.

Title: Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
Post by: steve on December 06, 2019, 10:00:44 AM
Ya, there's nothing cheap about shows. AirBnB might help. Honestly the sound is often bad. Finding locals to listen to their gear is a safe bet in many ways.

Had a contractor here today and he’s traveling this weekend to Colorado to visit family. I mentioned RMAF in October and he chuckled and said don’t consider driving and there will be snow to deal with.
I’ll admit the sound is sometimes poor at shows, but the ones I’ve attended have been fun as I enjoy chatting with audio enthusiasts.

Nick, I have a couple of techniques/experiments that might help you. I did not read all the previous posts, so please forgive me if you have tried these.

1) Rotate the speakers just a smidgen, 1/16"/1/8" or so towards you and away from you to see how the sound reacts. Just a tiny bit one way or the other may be enough to relieve the harshness. Another adjustment is spread the speakers slightly further apart, or closer together. Just a smidgen.

2) Move around the room near the floor, centered between the speakers, and find where the bass is
least/sound is thinner. Flop a pillow at that spot.

3) Different but similar to pt. 2. Try to find two spots near the floor, hopefully symmetrical to both your listening position and each speaker, and flop a pillow at each location. If we adjust the response reflections from one speaker, we want to do the same with the other speaker.

Just a thought, could be tedious, but an audiophile buddy Dan, has performed this to nice improvements.
Depending upon speaker, setup etc, one way may help and the other may exaggerate the condition you are experiencing. Also, other parameters will change a little as well.

cheers and good luck with whichever you decide from suggestions in this string.

steve

Thanks, Steve.  I’ll give this a go. Part of the harshness issue I’m sure is some of those old, crummy recordings I listen to on Tidal. But it’s a sacrifice I readily make... This issue was also present with my McCormack DNA 1. I’m thinking a tube amp might also take the edge off so to speak.
I’ve heard that speaker placement can be quite critical, but fractions of an inch?  :shock: I have pillows, so no problem as to that suggestion. As for crawling around on the floor.. the subwoofer crawl as I’ve heard it named ...the hard part would be getting up. Old age creeping in.
I am curious about bass traps and that some of these can/should be placed at the wall and ceiling intersection. I thought bass waves remained at floor level, so the ceiling mention is puzzling. I continue to do some reading and watch videos regarding room treatments.
I appreciate your input.
Nick

Fraction of an inch? Yes and more Nick. Dan and I have actually placed 0,5mm pen markings below the speakers and moved the speakers the marks thickness or less. The differences we heard here included sound staging, tonal balance, edginess etc.

Another example that might help, one of the last things I did to finish my system was to rid of some gold plated banana plugs.

I was testing to find out how many parallel 18 gauge wires I needed for optimum sonics. This included total gauge for damping as well as minimal inductance for upper frequencies etc.

So some copper wires were directly installed in the amplifier/speaker jacks and some were via banana plugs, which made it easy to add or subtract wires. How much sonic difference could it make with just some connected via banana plugs? I still had copper to copper connection via some wires. More than I assumed.

When I rid of the banana plugs, I had to adjust my two fine tuning controls on the speakers again. Just a simple tweak as removing gold plated brass banana plugs made a significant sonic difference.

Just an example that might help Nick. Maybe just check everything and see if there might be something, like banana plugs, that could be tweaked, loose connections, cleaning and/or spray cleaning connections etc.

I am still checking to see if I have another possible tweak hiding somewhere. Again just thoughts that might help Nick.

steve
Title: Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
Post by: Nick B on December 06, 2019, 10:47:50 AM
Ya, there's nothing cheap about shows. AirBnB might help. Honestly the sound is often bad. Finding locals to listen to their gear is a safe bet in many ways.

Had a contractor here today and he’s traveling this weekend to Colorado to visit family. I mentioned RMAF in October and he chuckled and said don’t consider driving and there will be snow to deal with.
I’ll admit the sound is sometimes poor at shows, but the ones I’ve attended have been fun as I enjoy chatting with audio enthusiasts.

Nick, I have a couple of techniques/experiments that might help you. I did not read all the previous posts, so please forgive me if you have tried these.

1) Rotate the speakers just a smidgen, 1/16"/1/8" or so towards you and away from you to see how the sound reacts. Just a tiny bit one way or the other may be enough to relieve the harshness. Another adjustment is spread the speakers slightly further apart, or closer together. Just a smidgen.

2) Move around the room near the floor, centered between the speakers, and find where the bass is
least/sound is thinner. Flop a pillow at that spot.

3) Different but similar to pt. 2. Try to find two spots near the floor, hopefully symmetrical to both your listening position and each speaker, and flop a pillow at each location. If we adjust the response reflections from one speaker, we want to do the same with the other speaker.

Just a thought, could be tedious, but an audiophile buddy Dan, has performed this to nice improvements.
Depending upon speaker, setup etc, one way may help and the other may exaggerate the condition you are experiencing. Also, other parameters will change a little as well.

cheers and good luck with whichever you decide from suggestions in this string.

steve

Thanks, Steve.  I’ll give this a go. Part of the harshness issue I’m sure is some of those old, crummy recordings I listen to on Tidal. But it’s a sacrifice I readily make... This issue was also present with my McCormack DNA 1. I’m thinking a tube amp might also take the edge off so to speak.
I’ve heard that speaker placement can be quite critical, but fractions of an inch?  :shock: I have pillows, so no problem as to that suggestion. As for crawling around on the floor.. the subwoofer crawl as I’ve heard it named ...the hard part would be getting up. Old age creeping in.
I am curious about bass traps and that some of these can/should be placed at the wall and ceiling intersection. I thought bass waves remained at floor level, so the ceiling mention is puzzling. I continue to do some reading and watch videos regarding room treatments.
I appreciate your input.
Nick

Fraction of an inch? Yes and more Nick. Dan and I have actually placed 0,5mm pen markings below the speakers and moved the speakers the marks thickness or less. The differences we heard here included sound staging, tonal balance, edginess etc.

Another example that might help, one of the last things I did to finish my system was to rid of some gold plated banana plugs.

I was testing to find out how many parallel 18 gauge wires I needed for optimum sonics. This included total gauge for damping as well as minimal inductance for upper frequencies etc.

So some copper wires were directly installed in the amplifier/speaker jacks and some were via banana plugs, which made it easy to add or subtract wires. How much sonic difference could it make with just some connected via banana plugs? I still had copper to copper connection via some wires. More than I assumed.

When I rid of the banana plugs, I had to adjust my two fine tuning controls on the speakers again. Just a simple tweak as removing gold plated brass banana plugs made a significant sonic difference.

Just an example that might help Nick. Maybe just check everything and see if there might be something, like banana plugs, that could be tweaked, loose connections, cleaning and/or spray cleaning connections etc.

I am still checking to see if I have another possible tweak hiding somewhere. Again just thoughts that might help Nick.

steve

Thanks for your input, Steve. I’m developing a long to do list   :shock: :) Nick
Title: Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
Post by: Jack on December 06, 2019, 12:02:50 PM
Nick

For between the speakers and the stands I would just use the IsoAcoustics Pucks which are half the price of the Gaia's and were designed for use in Studios to isolate the monitors.  Also the Herbie's products will do a similar things and are even cheaper. 

https://herbiesaudiolab.com/collections/loudspeaker-rack-decoupling-and-isolation/products/thin-fat-dot

The gliders instead of spikes on the stands also work well.  Also a good source for power cables at a reasonable price is Audio Envy in Colorado.  Cap will allow a trial period as will Pete.
Title: Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
Post by: Nick B on December 06, 2019, 12:14:34 PM
Nick

For between the speakers and the stands I would just use the IsoAcoustics Pucks which are half the price of the Gaia's and were designed for use in Studios to isolate the monitors.  Also the Herbie's products will do a similar things and are even cheaper. 

https://herbiesaudiolab.com/collections/loudspeaker-rack-decoupling-and-isolation/products/thin-fat-dot

The gliders instead of spikes on the stands also work well.  Also a good source for power cables at a reasonable price is Audio Envy in Colorado.  Cap will allow a trial period as will Pete.

Jack,
Thanks for the suggestion. Those pucks are still pricey....  I’ll look at Herbies also. Yes, I was planning on trying Cap’s products and maybe Pete’s cord from the wall into the Uber.
Nick
Title: Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
Post by: Jack on December 06, 2019, 01:27:48 PM
Nick

I am using the Herbie's between the Carrera's and the Tyler Acoustics stands and they do the job.  With the Iso products you would be raising the speakers tweeter about 1 1/2" and that can be an issue on top of the $200 for even the pucks from Walter who usually has the lowest price.  You can however order them from Crutchfield and if they don't work send them back within 60 days.  If you have changed to wood floors the gliders will do the job and not damage anything and even help on carpet.

On the cables I would try them both and see what you think as the combo of the two I use may not be the same as what works for you.

Also try this album on Tidal and see what you hear in terms of harshness or bass problems.  About as clean of a current recording as you will find even if you don't like the music.  Another to try is Ray Brown's Soular Energy especially for the bass issues.

https://www.amazon.com/Lean-Me-Jos%C3%A9-James/dp/B07GG5LV4M/ref=sr_1_1?crid=V00O9U3I1425&keywords=jose+james+lean+on+me&qid=1575667700&sprefix=jose+jame%2Caps%2C172&sr=8-1
Title: Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
Post by: Nick B on December 07, 2019, 11:00:51 AM
nick, what's the toe-in on your speakers?  have you tried toeing them in so the intersection is a couple of feet in front of the listening position?

doug s.

Have toed them so as to intersect as you suggest. Have not been able to listen much. Maybe a very slight reduction on harshness and the soundstage is smaller. Was the idea to try and change/lessen the very first reflection?
Nick
Title: Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
Post by: Nick B on December 07, 2019, 11:04:55 AM
Nick, perhaps you've already answered this earlier, but what kind of support are your speakers sitting on?  I've got a very different room and speakers, but  I was having a good bit of bass boominess and lack of clarity awhile back.   I replaced the spikes on my speakers with IsoAcoustics GAIA footers and all I can say is WOW.   Completely cleaned up the boom.   I also put the IsoAcoustics OREA footers under my Devialet which also improved things (but not as much as under the speakers).   Probably the best tweaks I've ever used.   Anyway, just a thought.

Mike,
Thanks for the suggestion. It will be a while before I can get to that. Jack has mentioned them as well. I have moved the Fritzes out more from the wall and that’s helped with the boominess.
Nick
Title: Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
Post by: Nick B on December 09, 2019, 10:48:41 PM
Thanks for the various suggestions. I have the Fritzes toed in 18” from the wall. That is the measurement of one rear corner of the cabinet and the other corner is 21” away. The Fritzes axis intersects about 2’ in from of my listening position. That is per Doug’s suggestion. The soundstage is fine. I tried pulling the Carreras out further from the wall, but it actually added some boominess back in. The speakers are about 5’ apart and I don’t have a lot of flexibility in that regard.

I played the Jose James album “Lean on Me” that Jack suggested. The presentation was quite nice, but still with some harshness. It is what it is.... I’ve been in this house for 16 years with basically the same speaker placement and no room treatments.

I did more web searches today for room correction software and read about Dirac, deqx, minidsp that includes Dirac, Lyndorf...  I could have tried the speakers on another wall, but that wall has four glass panels. The furniture placement would have been a bit awkward and my listening position would not have been as comfortable.

The holidays are approaching and I continue to break in the Carreras (over 220 hours).
I’ll keep reading about room correction and may try these products after the new year.
Title: Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
Post by: steve on December 11, 2019, 11:56:10 AM
Thanks for the various suggestions. I have the Fritzes toed in 18” from the wall. That is the measurement of one rear corner of the cabinet and the other corner is 21” away. The Fritzes axis intersects about 2’ in from of my listening position. That is per Doug’s suggestion. The soundstage is fine. I tried pulling the Carreras out further from the wall, but it actually added some boominess back in. The speakers are about 5’ apart and I don’t have a lot of flexibility in that regard.

I played the Jose James album “Lean on Me” that Jack suggested. The presentation was quite nice, but still with some harshness. It is what it is.... I’ve been in this house for 16 years with basically the same speaker placement and no room treatments.

I did more web searches today for room correction software and read about Dirac, deqx, minidsp that includes Dirac, Lyndorf...  I could have tried the speakers on another wall, but that wall has four glass panels. The furniture placement would have been a bit awkward and my listening position would not have been as comfortable.

The holidays are approaching and I continue to break in the Carreras (over 220 hours).
I’ll keep reading about room correction and may try these products after the new year.

A walmart full size pillow or two in each corner (~ $4.00/ea.) behind the speaker will help relieve the boominess to some extent, leaving you some room for adjustment. I sue two.

cheers and great week.

steve
Title: Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
Post by: mresseguie on December 11, 2019, 01:09:33 PM
Thanks for the various suggestions. I have the Fritzes toed in 18” from the wall. That is the measurement of one rear corner of the cabinet and the other corner is 21” away. The Fritzes axis intersects about 2’ in from of my listening position. That is per Doug’s suggestion. The soundstage is fine. I tried pulling the Carreras out further from the wall, but it actually added some boominess back in. The speakers are about 5’ apart and I don’t have a lot of flexibility in that regard.

I played the Jose James album “Lean on Me” that Jack suggested. The presentation was quite nice, but still with some harshness. It is what it is.... I’ve been in this house for 16 years with basically the same speaker placement and no room treatments.

I did more web searches today for room correction software and read about Dirac, deqx, minidsp that includes Dirac, Lyndorf...  I could have tried the speakers on another wall, but that wall has four glass panels. The furniture placement would have been a bit awkward and my listening position would not have been as comfortable.

The holidays are approaching and I continue to break in the Carreras (over 220 hours).
I’ll keep reading about room correction and may try these products after the new year.

A walmart full size pillow or two in each corner (~ $4.00/ea.) behind the speaker will help relieve the boominess to some extent, leaving you some room for adjustment. I sue two.

cheers and great week.

steve

Steve,

Thank you for the pillow idea. I have used variations of this for a couple years, but I was never certain it was anything more than a foolish idea.

Michael
Title: Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
Post by: Nick B on December 11, 2019, 03:15:49 PM
Thanks for the various suggestions. I have the Fritzes toed in 18” from the wall. That is the measurement of one rear corner of the cabinet and the other corner is 21” away. The Fritzes axis intersects about 2’ in from of my listening position. That is per Doug’s suggestion. The soundstage is fine. I tried pulling the Carreras out further from the wall, but it actually added some boominess back in. The speakers are about 5’ apart and I don’t have a lot of flexibility in that regard.

I played the Jose James album “Lean on Me” that Jack suggested. The presentation was quite nice, but still with some harshness. It is what it is.... I’ve been in this house for 16 years with basically the same speaker placement and no room treatments.

I did more web searches today for room correction software and read about Dirac, deqx, minidsp that includes Dirac, Lyndorf...  I could have tried the speakers on another wall, but that wall has four glass panels. The furniture placement would have been a bit awkward and my listening position would not have been as comfortable.

The holidays are approaching and I continue to break in the Carreras (over 220 hours).
I’ll keep reading about room correction and may try these products after the new year.

A walmart full size pillow or two in each corner (~ $4.00/ea.) behind the speaker will help relieve the boominess to some extent, leaving you some room for adjustment. I sue two.

cheers and great week.

steve

Thanks, Steve. Part of the problem is the asymmetry of the room. One speaker is in a corner and the other has no boundary side wall. Your pillows suggestion is an easy one to try.
Nick
Title: Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
Post by: steve on December 12, 2019, 08:52:38 PM
Thanks for the various suggestions. I have the Fritzes toed in 18” from the wall. That is the measurement of one rear corner of the cabinet and the other corner is 21” away. The Fritzes axis intersects about 2’ in from of my listening position. That is per Doug’s suggestion. The soundstage is fine. I tried pulling the Carreras out further from the wall, but it actually added some boominess back in. The speakers are about 5’ apart and I don’t have a lot of flexibility in that regard.

I played the Jose James album “Lean on Me” that Jack suggested. The presentation was quite nice, but still with some harshness. It is what it is.... I’ve been in this house for 16 years with basically the same speaker placement and no room treatments.

I did more web searches today for room correction software and read about Dirac, deqx, minidsp that includes Dirac, Lyndorf...  I could have tried the speakers on another wall, but that wall has four glass panels. The furniture placement would have been a bit awkward and my listening position would not have been as comfortable.

The holidays are approaching and I continue to break in the Carreras (over 220 hours).
I’ll keep reading about room correction and may try these products after the new year.

A walmart full size pillow or two in each corner (~ $4.00/ea.) behind the speaker will help relieve the boominess to some extent, leaving you some room for adjustment. I sue two.

cheers and great week.

steve

Thanks, Steve. Part of the problem is the asymmetry of the room. One speaker is in a corner and the other has no boundary side wall. Your pillows suggestion is an easy one to try.
Nick

Using one in the corner might balance things out a little down there, and a little bit might be enough. Interesting experiment and cheap.

cheers and good luck.

steve
Title: Re: thinking about new amp and pre or integrated
Post by: Nick B on December 12, 2019, 10:22:53 PM
Thanks for the various suggestions. I have the Fritzes toed in 18” from the wall. That is the measurement of one rear corner of the cabinet and the other corner is 21” away. The Fritzes axis intersects about 2’ in from of my listening position. That is per Doug’s suggestion. The soundstage is fine. I tried pulling the Carreras out further from the wall, but it actually added some boominess back in. The speakers are about 5’ apart and I don’t have a lot of flexibility in that regard.

I played the Jose James album “Lean on Me” that Jack suggested. The presentation was quite nice, but still with some harshness. It is what it is.... I’ve been in this house for 16 years with basically the same speaker placement and no room treatments.

I did more web searches today for room correction software and read about Dirac, deqx, minidsp that includes Dirac, Lyndorf...  I could have tried the speakers on another wall, but that wall has four glass panels. The furniture placement would have been a bit awkward and my listening position would not have been as comfortable.

The holidays are approaching and I continue to break in the Carreras (over 220 hours).
I’ll keep reading about room correction and may try these products after the new year.

A walmart full size pillow or two in each corner (~ $4.00/ea.) behind the speaker will help relieve the boominess to some extent, leaving you some room for adjustment. I sue two.

cheers and great week.

steve

Thanks, Steve. Part of the problem is the asymmetry of the room. One speaker is in a corner and the other has no boundary side wall. Your pillows suggestion is an easy one to try.
Nick

Using one in the corner might balance things out a little down there, and a little bit might be enough. Interesting experiment and cheap.

cheers and good luck.

steve

Steve,
Am playing with pillow placement right now as well as a hinged, 3 piece room divider (shaped as a triangle) in the corner. Am enjoying Dave’s latest treated AC outlet. Just had it installed today  :thumb:
Nick