REALLY ??!!

[tmazz]

First off, I don't necessarily agree that Greg's original post got into class warfare at all. He did not say that he didn't understand why someone would spend $165k on a pair of speakers (which I would agree is out of bounds). That is a different thing all together. And I don't disagree with him. I certainly would want to listen to them, but I find it very hard to believe that a simple two way box speaker would be able to compete with the other speakers out there that sell in the $150k range at least some of which I have heard and been very impressed with. (Of course my personal situation is such that I would never be able to pay that much for a pair of speakers, but I can still appreciate what they do. I like looking at Ferarris too even though I will never own one.) But unlike other speakers in that price range that use obviously complex expensive technology these Audio note two ways  (at least from the photo) look like a fairly straight forward and relatively simplistic design and I too wonder what it is about them that would justify that asking price. I look at a pair of then top of the line Wilson speakers and I can understand why they are expensive, these not so obvious. Saying that no speaker should sell for $165K is out of line, but IMO questioning why a specific model commands that kind of price is a legit question.

Unfortunately this becomes a slippery slope because this opens the door for follow up comments that can easily get out of hand.

Likewise  it is bad to say that companies making audio components with these kinds of price tags are catering to the very wealthy in our society. That is a simple fact plain and simple people making %50k a year cannot spend $165k on a pair of speakers. The problem comes when you start using terms like "the 1%ers" which have very politically charged undertones. We all just need tio pick our words carefully so that the message we are trying to convey does not get sidetracked with an implied political agenda that we may have never intended to convey in our post.

I also don't think Greg was comparing speaker buyers to heroin users.  The way I read his comment he is countering the logic that it is OK if they like it and have the money by saying that logic would say it is OK for rich people to to be heroin addicts or compulsive gamblers simply because they have the money.  The statement he made was highlighting a flaw in the logic of the it's OK statement  and not directed at the speaker buyers themselves. Again, I think we all just need to choose our words carefully such as not to inflame other people.

Just my  opinion, but I realize as someone who deals with legal writing all day long tend to take thing more at the face value of the words on the page and don't read between the lines too much. But that's just me. I also realize that  many people do read beyond the words and have had to learn to adapt my writing style in certain situations (like here on AN)

Edit:

Where was a whole bunch of activity here on this thread while I was writing the post. Sorry if some of the points I made were already brought up.

But I think topround might have hit the nail right on the head. Greg was looking for a justification of the price from the pointy of view of the cost of goods sold. Maybe the point is that there is no justification based on cost. In the end regardless of what it costs to make something, the price is based on what people are willing to pay for it. That is just Business 101. In this case it may look strange because of the big numbers involved and the (assumed) relatively low cost of goods. It is all just the open market at work. I just this afternoon posted a comment about a album that I was listening too that I just found out was selling online at prices over $500 for a used copy. Why is it worth that much? Did it cost any more to make than records sitting in dollar bins? No, but enough people out there are willing to pay $500 for it, so that has become the market price. Does it make sense, not to someone who doesn't want to pay that much. But it makes perfect sense to someone with the desire to own it and an extra $500 in his pocket.

[topround]

I don't think people that would buy those AN speakers actually read any audio forums. They are probably too busy doing what they do.

They send out there minions to put together systems for them with the approval of their decorators.
This may sound strange but I will try to find the Wall St Journal link to an article about an audio dealer in NYC that specializes in just that, putting together systems for the very rich, usually assembled for approval by the decorator, and this dealer does very well indeed.

The problem here is that we are mixing us, the meat and potato audiophile, with the well heeled gent that buys very expensive audio gear...two very different people with very different reasons for assembling a system, hence the disparity of our feelings, especially regarding price.

That AN speaker is an anomaly..it is a freak that was allowed to be....and being so outlandish is seems right to be subject to some criticism, it happens all day long with other products, like super expensive houses or boats or planes, what makes this so freakish is that the super expensive house is usually gigantic with all sorts of over the top amenities, or the boat is super big with a submarine and gold anchors, but what we have here is a plain jane stolen design, a simple design priced like it was something more than it is...sort of the emperors new clothes if you will.
If 99% see it as a rip off and 1% see it as a good deal what does that say?
and in defense of the super expensive house or yacht, I am in favor of that because I like to see how far we as humans we can go. Yet a 3 million dollar Boston Whaler would make me scratch my head and wonder why?
Just normal, natural...and human

Class warfare? I think not. Jealous of their money..most likely, jealous that they bought that speaker? ..most likely not...just curious who would buy that speaker, even if they had unlimited sums of money, Ultimately it is us middle class wondering why a wealthy person, someone we wish we were, and believe that they must have some superior mind to become wealthy would all of a sudden not see it as we do...a terriffic waste of money, buying yachts and ferraris we understand,,,buying little 2 way monitors at that price makes us wonder................no class warfare

[Werd]

 I hear this complaint all the time about people getting ripped off with stuff like this. It's sculpted in a way that belittles the industry. It has a naysayer undertone to it. Not this time but it usually does, which In turn
ends up being a general attack on what I like in gear.  I don't come hear to dice-up my political views but much of the problem with this stuff that fuels these negative undertones is the economy. The reason why there are so many overpriced gear ads is because all the disposable income is no longer in the middle class but in a small segment of high earners. Manufacturers are targeting it. That is just the way it is. So people can quit complaining about this like it is a hobby out of control and start seeing it for what it is. It's an economic problem that I do not agree with.

[richidoo]

You still fail to see my point.

As moderator I don't have to see your point. You have to see mine. Read, understand and follow ALL of the forum rules. You probably should read them again.

[GT Audio Works]

I guess I cant deny my consternation when I saw the price of the AN-E speaker...hence my ramblings.
Though it did not stem from class warfare or anything else,other than pure amazement one could be so gullible as to seriously consider buying such a product.
As Topround points out, no one was denied or harmed in the process.
So more power to Peter Q for making it happen.
I think maybe we are a bit worse off as an industry for it.
It proves to the naysayers of high end audio that we are as nuts as they think we are.

[GT Audio Works]

You still fail to see my point.

As moderator I don't have to see your point. You have to see mine. Read, understand and follow ALL of the forum rules. You probably should read them again.

True....but the opposite holds just as true.
I can read your rules...not agree with them and I am free to not participate in your game or find another game to my liking.

To tell you the truth such banter is a huge waste of time and I have better things to do.

Hows the weather in the Carolinas today Rich ??
It was just beautiful in Northern NJ today...sunny warm.....ZZZzzz...
G'Nite folks sweet dreams !!

Greg

[Nick B]

You still fail to see my point.

As moderator I don't have to see your point. You have to see mine. Read, understand and follow ALL of the forum rules. You probably should read them again.

True....but the opposite holds just as true.
I can read your rules...not agree with them and I am free to not participate in your game or find another game to my liking.

To tell you the truth such banter is a huge waste of time and I have better things to do.

Hows the weather in the Carolinas today Rich ??
It was just beautiful in Northern NJ today...sunny warm.....ZZZzzz...
G'Nite folks sweet dreams !!

Since Christmas will be here soon, may I ask for peace and goodwill to all. Greg, I enjoy your posts. Rich, thanks for being the moderator. Not an easy job. Reminds me of being on my HOA board

Greg

[Nick B]

Well, I goofed on quoting the above post. My part starts with Since and ends with HOA board
Nick

[richidoo]

Thanks Nick, and Pete.

Greg is timed out for 30 days.

[GT Audio Works]

Thanks Nick, and Pete.

Greg is timed out for 30 days.

Dont bother Rich... I will not be posting here any longer.
If you cant take a little opposing viewpoints whats the sense. ?
Greg

[GT Audio Works]

Thanks Nick, and Pete.

Greg is timed out for 30 days.

Dont bother Rich... I will not be posting here any longer.
If you cant take a little opposing viewpoints whats the sense. ?
Greg

closing my account

[rpf]

Thanks Nick, and Pete.

Greg is timed out for 30 days.

Dont bother Rich... I will not be posting here any longer.
If you cant take a little opposing viewpoints whats the sense. ?
Greg

closing my account

Sorry to hear this. It's not as if AN can afford to lose active members.

[KLH007]

Now will the many owners of $165K Audio Note Sogon speakers feel free and not bullied and come to the forum and post about their experiences listening to music on inexplicably expensive speakers? Not! Rich, where are the "rich people" you want to feel comfortable on your site? The Sogon owner did buy a status toy and really doesn't want to blog about it, or read critical posts.  So you protected the site, and turned away a supporter who just made it clear that the cost isn't justified by R & D plus the cost of materials even with a 25 times cost retail. My takeaway was the unsupported pricing, like $50K speaker cables, can lead to a derogatory view of audiophiles and the audio industry as a whole. Do you wonder why you have such a small readership, maybe it's stuff like this?

[topround]

that was a scary turn of events, the site was never more active.
I am afraid Greg may be right this place will turn into a snoozefest.

Being Gregs friend I know he was just trying to drum up some interest in the site

[StereoNut]

Sorry to hear this. It's not as if AN can afford to lose active members.

+1 Rob