Author Topic: Single driver full range speakers  (Read 45358 times)

Offline richidoo

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Single driver full range speakers
« on: August 11, 2007, 09:51:47 AM »
In *theory* I like low power, single driver systems and have had several iterations of same myself, but they always left me just a little disappointed/unfulfilled especially in the lowest registers.  Sure, they do some things exceptionally well, but so far the compromise hasn't proven to be very long lived around here.

Jim,
I understand the limitations of single drivers on low end, but ow do they fare in the treble? Can they play clear high like a dedicated tweeter, or even as good as a ribbon tweeter? Most claim 20kHz on axis, but is this practical and how does it sound?

I have only heard Fostex (not sure which driver) in TL cabinet, so haven't been able to sample all of the treble, but what I heard was pretty good. Not ribbon-tweeter-like though... ;)

Dick Olsher says these are the reigning king:
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/Magazine/equipment/0107/diy_loudspeaker_project.htm
http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/feastrex/feastrex.html
At $8k/pr it would be fun to hear them, at least.

This avenue appeals to me. Not yet dipped in a toe, but fun to learn about it.
Rich

Offline rollo

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Re: Single driver full range speakers
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2007, 08:07:40 AM »
richadoo,
                  If you have a chance listen to the Cain & Cain Wall of sound speaker. It may just change your mind as to what single drivers can do. Sub quality bass, wall to wall soundstage with a midrange that will take you away. The top is naturally smooth with all the micro and macro dynamics we lust after. They also open the door to those flea powered Amps that will change your listening experience. Goosebump city, is not a dream it is reality with the Cain & Cain. The tone, texture, and real life dynamics of this combo will make you a believer.

  rollo
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miklorsmith

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Re: Single driver full range speakers
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2007, 10:17:19 AM »
This is a topic that could be expounded on for pages, easily, with many angles.  Here's my condensed view:

Audiophiles are all different, as we know.  Each has a personal set of values, depending on auditory anatomy and music/volume taste.  There are practical considerations - some have very large rooms, others small rooms in apartments with persnickety neighbors.  All these things shape what systems/speakers we treasure/own.

Each speaker type has inherent strengths and weaknesses and people adapt to what they hear.  Conventional, multi-way speakers can be shaped to present a very wide frequency range with mostly flat response.  However, getting the drivers to sing with one voice is challenging.  Also, crossovers and inefficient drivers rob microdynamic swing and dynamics.  Followers of this camp accept these weaknesses to pursue those things this type does well, whether they know it or not.

True single driver speakers can be wired directly from the amplifier to driver with no interseding connectors or circuitry of any kind.  However loaded, these speakers naturally exhibit superior coherence and "breath of life" through the midband.  Of course, they naturally do not exhibit frequency extension anywhere near more conventional speakers.  Treble reach is a function of the driver itself, and varies considerably.  It is probably fair to say the shimmer and sparkle of ribbons especially has not been captured in a single driver, though Scott Faller says his Lowthers reach very cleanly to 14 khz or so.  I haven't heard Lowthers but that's believable.  Bass extension is shared between the driver and cabinet loading.  Of course, transmission lines, bass reflex, open baffle, and sealed boxes will sound different but it's safe to assume these speakers won't pound and slam like dedicated woofers.  Followers of this camp accept these weaknesses to pursue those things this type does well.

A third camp tries to join the other two.  Rhethm and Horning use Lowther drivers through their "happy band" and supplement at the extremes.  Zu does the same thing, but with modified Eminance drivers.

I spent many years in the conventional camp, detouring to single drivers, and finally ended up with hybrids.  To me, cohesion and microdynamics through the meat of music is necessary.  I don't have the best imaging in my room and I don't have ninth-level shimmer in the treble.  Measured frequency response isn't as flat as I'd like in a couple of areas.  But, I'm very happy with the sound because I know what's important to me and those qualities are there in spades.  With the semi-parametric EQ in Inguz I can get response pretty darn flat too.   8)

I don't think the single-driver/hybrid sound is one that "catches" immediately.  Rather, it takes a varying period to "get".  If it grabs you and you adapt, going back the other direction becomes difficult or impossible.

Nice topic, Rich!

Offline bpape

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Re: Single driver full range speakers
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2007, 11:17:29 AM »
Scott actually ended up with a pseudo OB setup for the Lowthers.  He uses an active xover to some subs for the bottom.  It's not what one is used to hearing - but - it does make you tap your toes and just sit back and listen to the music.

Bryan
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Offline Bemopti123

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Re: Single driver full range speakers
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2007, 11:16:55 PM »
Nah.  I have a pair of FTA-2000s, which are Fostex F200A based MLTL speakers.  For their price, they are utterly amazing in both the low end and also the HF.  I have seen someone have it wired with a bullet tweeter, but I do believe that had to do with compensation of HF hearing loss that comes with the age of the owner than the lack of spark.  Of course, some people like that "spark" in their music.

Nevertheless, I do believe that the biggest mission of a Single driver/fullrange/widebander or what other combo names that driver without much circuitry but single pieces of wire, or in my case a zobel network, is to deliver a ravishing midrange, which accord to those who live with abnormalities, is all that matter. 

BTW, these FTAs really have slam, in contrast to horns and other types of enclosures or non enclosures. 

I actually had a person come home and listen to them, when I used to live in a small one bedroom apartment.  In a email exchange the day after, he declared that the FTA lost in the transparency department to a pair of 12K, Tannoy Coaxial based speakers at a dealer in NYC.  It was a very interesting discovery, for a pair of speakers that cost just 1500 new. 

jrebman

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Re: Single driver full range speakers
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2007, 09:04:05 AM »
Rich,

Yikes, yet another thread that hasn't sent me any notifications -- sorry, never saw your reply.

To answer the question about high frequencies, yes, I do think the better single driver speakers can reach pretty high frequencies -- some of the Fostex drivers claim 3 dB down points of 23 KHz, but I don't think that's the whole picture.  At those frequencies, especially the larger the cone, you are necessarily getting a lot of break-up modes, which, if your hearing is sensitive enough, can certainly grate on you.  Even if they don't do that so much, the break-up modes do contribute to some loss of transparency.  At least this is my perception from my experiences -- the high end was never lacking in real extension, but did tend to get grainy and harsh, and just nowhere near as transparent or "effortless" as say the round ribbon tweets on the Adagios.  I am pretty sensitive to tweeter nasties, but the Adagio tweeter is among the best I've heard so far, only losing to the diamond tweeter in the Kharmas and the Acapella ion tweeters, and we're talking about a huge price differential there.

I think Mike pretty much nails it with his comments, and I don't know that I have anything more useful to add to his statements, except that hybrids seem to be a relatively cost-effective compromise.

No speaker is everything to everybody, and I suppose for me, the real thing is to have a fairly even and smoothe response from top to bottom, with decent, but not ultimate extension at both ends, and as transparent as I can possibly afford.  So far the SD systems I've owned and listened to didn't have nearly as much transparency as most would have had me believe I would experience.  For me, the real acid test is the clarity of voices, and while they have been good, to very good, I was utterly amazed the other night when I played an Eva Cassidy CD on my system with my still very green tube amp, and for the first time ever, could effortlessly understand every single word she sang, without even trying to listen for it.  No SD speaker I've had, no matter what amplification/source could ever do that.

I have obviously not heard the megabuck SD speakers that Dick Olsher talked about, but at that price tag they are in the same league as the Reps, and some of the more exotic Phy and field-coil offerings from Western Europe -- and sure, I'd love to be able to hear all of them, but that's not going to happen, which is to say that my comments are based on the very limited selection of drivers I have heard in my house, which include a couple of Fostex (priced at $85 and $60 respectively) and the Visaton B-200 ($135), and those which I've heard at shows -- some Lowthers, and the AER Mk II. and Louis's hemp drivers (which sound pretty damned good to me, but still not everything I want/need in a speaker.)

Everything in audio is a compromise, right?  Well, the SD driver is no different, and as good as the engineering has advanced, you're still dealing with some laws of physics that are pretty hard to defy.

For my taste, right now I'm giving a lot of thought to a crossoverless 2-way with active filtering before the amplifiers with possibly a chip amp on the bottom end and a small tube amp for the high end -- not at all unlike what Mike has going with the Def Pros, but on a much smaller, more modest scale, and a more conventional mid/bass - tweeter driver complement.

Bottom line is that I think SD speakers can do a lot of things right, but they just don't mesh well with my particular tastes/needs, or another way to say it is that they, so far, haven't been the right set of compromises for me.

All done now :D

-- Jim

Offline richidoo

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Re: Single driver full range speakers
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2007, 03:14:34 PM »
Sorry I 've been quiet on this topic, but gobbling it up and thinking about all the great points of view. There's lots to digest here. I got quote back from feastrex distributor for D5nf, 2400/pair drivers alone. permanent magnet drivers, not field coils which go up into 12k range. He will have the field coil models at RMAF, I asked him about the D5nf as used in Olsher OB review, he was unsure if they will bring that one.

So it will be interesting to see what it sounds like. That's a mighty big tweeter flailing around at 20k! Hard to imagine it sounding smooth and powerful, but maybe that's why it's so expensive, since you ALWAYS get what you pay for in this hobby right?   :?
Rich

Offline bpape

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Re: Single driver full range speakers
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2007, 07:00:52 AM »
Has anybody played with the FAL drivers that Bent offers?  They look like a very nice solution.

Bryan
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Offline richidoo

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Re: Single driver full range speakers
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2007, 01:46:06 PM »

Offline bpape

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Re: Single driver full range speakers
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2007, 01:48:49 PM »
I heard an early version of them a few years ago.  They were very nice but still had some bugs.  Looks like they've been worked out.  I'd love to see what a FAL and one of their AMT's would do.  Maybe just a simple block on the tweeter bottom end and run the FAL full range. 

Bryan
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WEEZ

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Re: Single driver full range speakers
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2007, 02:13:10 PM »
Anybody heard these?

www.brentworth.com

WEEZ

Offline richidoo

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Re: Single driver full range speakers
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2007, 05:53:22 PM »
I read that website with great interest Don. Thanks. I submitted the online form for more info and to try to listen to them. If they call me I'll try to find out more.
Rich

Offline rollo

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Re: Single driver full range speakers
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2007, 07:01:02 AM »
Anybody heard these?

www.brentworth.com

WEEZ
   


Weez,
            Great find. The type 3 goes down to 20Hz wow!. This could be the one. If it dosn't beam at you it could be nirvana. Thes are worth a listen. This is the first speaker to catch my interest since I bought the Pipedreams. Very exciting. This calls for a full investigation. Lets check these babies out. Richadoo is on the case so I feel confident that we will become well informed quite soon. Good job man


rollo
« Last Edit: September 07, 2007, 07:33:23 AM by rollo »
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Offline richidoo

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Re: Single driver full range speakers
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2007, 07:17:49 AM »
I stayed up too late (again) looking into Don's mystery speakers, but it was fun. I finally caught up on some sleep this morning.

Someone needs to buy these demo models being unloaded from dealer in OH. He says no tube lovers in Columbus. Uh-huh... He's not looking very hard, there's tubers EVERYWHERE!!! But they hide well until a single driver 100dB full range speaker lures them out. haha

Here is the dealers website, maybe a little more info there:
http://www.genesisaudio.com/html/frameset_specials.htm

Brentworth makes single, double and quad driver models, with increasing low freq response and linearity I assume. Sensitivity rises slightly and impedence drops slightly with larger models. They are made out of non resonant kitchen counter corian type material, so color choices can be wilder than Wilson. Prices are what they are, but most would probably consider them a little high compared to standard boxes, but maybe proportional to the sonic improvements? One can hope. Type 3 lists around 7500, type 1 is about 5500, I think. This used one on EBay for 1500 with warrantee might be worth looking into, but ONLY if you will send it out on demo tour!! haha

I am close enough to go get it, but they say they will deliver it up to 400 miles in their van for $100. That's almost to my house, I think??? That's a bargain deal for making that trip through WV mountains! 7 day money back guarantee if it arrives back to them undamaged.

Some stuff on google to check out too, but info is scarce. No formals reviews that I could find. Just a few mentions.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=brentworth+SOund+labs+&btnG=Search



jrebman

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Re: Single driver full range speakers
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2007, 08:17:31 AM »
Just read Rich's post which answered the two major questions I had -- price, and what the hell are they made of that a cabinet of those dimensions weighs that much.

I don't think I'm within the 400 mile limit :-).  I have to say they at least *look* interesting on paper, but yu just can never tell how they're going to sound until you give them a listen.

But... between this, the FAL, the other Japanese drivers, at least it's good to know there more players than fostex, Lowther, and AER.  Ok, I know there are a lot more than that, but these are all interesting finds.
If I still had my Abbys, I'd probably try the Hemp Acoustics FR6.5 -- basically the same parameters as the Fostex it replaces, except with a higher Qts -- a good thing for the TQWT loading of the Abbys.  I've talked to Jason at Lovecraft design about this and I do believe he will be trying this when he can get his hands on a pair of the drivers.

-- Jim