Toe In - Crossing In Front of the Listening Position

[chrisa]

The other day I tried a tweak which drove me to another tweak and a discovery.

I followed the thread on AudioAsylum where some folks were getting benefit from wrapping teflon thread tape around the prongs of their AC cables. I tried it and it definitely changed things. It darkened the balance a bit, but it also closed down much of the image which had always extended well beyond the speakers in my room.
In messing with it trying to recover the imaging (and before reversing the change I'd made), I tried something new, increasing speaker toe-in to cross in front of the listening position. I was rather amazed that immediately the imaging was back, but instruments and their general "density" increased beyond what I had before. I'm very pleased, but I'll need to spin a few more discs before I think I understand it fully.
Anyone else tried this?

Chris

[shep]

I've done this more than once. The effect is very room and speaker dependent and how far away you sit.
It does tend to lock your head in a sweet spot vice I found, and when you shift left or right, the images jump as well. I usually take a cd with a well recorded voice; neither too close miked or too distant, to determine the toe-in. When the voice stays put and I have a wide-ish sweet spot, I leave it.

[richidoo]

Chris, do you cover the prong with teflon, and then it gets pushed back by the socket contacts? Thin teflon will insulate 120VAC so I assume it is being pushed away or you are wrapping it in some way that is not clear.
Thanks

[chrisa]

I wrapped 3-4 turns around the base of each prong and pushed it back, partly with my fingernail and partly with the insertion action. The prongs still make good electrical contact with the outlet. The idea is to reduce resonance at this point. Check out the post on AA for additional guidance and other audiophile's experience. Mine mirrors the others that I read, except for the affect on the soundstage.

[richidoo]

Link?
Thanks

[Carlman]

I wonder if a dab of hot glue would work just as well?

[chrisa]

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/16/165450.html

[rollo]

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMM Tape on the ol contacts eh. I'm game. When I made powercords for a while we would stuff the interior of the plug with wool or mortite, now Epoxy. We will take this a step further and cover the pins inside the plug. Yes I have too much time on my hands and a Doctorate in Nervosa. Admit it you do as well. 



charles

[chrisa]

The name of this site not withstanding, I typically think of Nervosa as a bad thing that I try hard to avoid, but I guess there can be good Nervosa in moderation.

I am quite tuned to my system and since taping the prongs my system also sounds a bit veiled. The only time I had noticed this in the past was when connected to a borrowed Blue Circle Music Ring power conditioner. I suspected at the time that I was hearing the impact of (or lack of) artificial frequency extension and ambience from noise, and this adds more evidence.

I think I'm understanding too that getting true extension and openness (minus the noise) is probably fairly difficult to achieve.

After listening more last night to the agressive toe-in, I still like it, though it does sound different. Also like Shep said small movements in the position of my ears make a large difference to the image. Cool stuff.

Chris

[rollo]

Hey Chris the extreme toe in goes with nearfield listening. The ol equilateral triangle thing. Try the speakers about 5 to 6 feet apart and radically toe in the speakers so that they cross 3 feet in front of you. My speakers [ Pipedreams] were designed to be set up that way. Unfortunately for me the desired distance to the rear wall required for proper setup cannot be achieved in my room. They need at least 10 to 15 feet. So for me it did not work. 
    The speakers are 6 feet apart 7 feet from rear wall with 8 feet to the side walls. I sit about 9 feet away. The speakers are toed in about 30 degrees. So far so good. Have fun.



charles

[poloman]

How do you get the exact same toe in from each speaker?   Some people use a tape measure from the back and side wall.  I've found an easier way, once the speakers are positioned, I use a pointer laser and follow the beam to the back wall or the listening position.  Just look for the dot.  My laser has a flat bottom so I just hold against the outside edge of the speaker and aim.  Easy with the B&W 's only the top head moves on a swivel, the bass cabinet points strait ahead.  Try it,  Its dead on accuracy.

[Bob in St. Louis]

Interesting you mention the laser.
I've thought about building my speakers with a small hole in them that one of those cheap $5 lasers would fit into. That way I could have true laser, pin-point accuracy with speaker alignment.
It's a sickness I tell you. Jezz..... 

Bob

[Carlman]

I laser align frequently to hear various amounts/types of toe.

The first thing I do is find the ceter of the room.. not as easy as it sounds if you want to get it to within a millimeter.  'Right about here' does't cut it.  Then I have to line up the primary listening position into that spot... and center that to the room... using a dummy head/stick/etc.  Once that's done you have a place to point lasers.

If your speakers are perfect boxes, you are in good shape since you could then secure lasers to the inside and outside edges... but even then, how would you know how far away each speaker was from the focusing spot?  You could get the angles right but not the distance.

Since you have now found only 1 spot in your room, you'll still have to find a way to put the speakers in the same plane... I do this by finding a 2nd center spot in the room, between the speakers.  I then measure out from the center the same distance from each side... never use the walls... they lie!

If you were to then attach lasers to the edges of a perfect box-shaped speaker, very carefully so that they are all positioned exactly the same, THEN you could achieve a really good alignment.

I do all of this with 1 measuring laser.. I use a combination of speaker placement methods and some of my own to achieve what I like.. I should really write it all down sometime.  It's fairly predictable and sounds great which I like.

-C

[poloman]

My room has a sliding glass door with heavy drapes in the center, on the back wall.  so its easy to aim  and the B&W802 matrix have a flat side on the midrange and it swivels so very fast and easy

[richidoo]

I should really write it all down sometime.  It's fairly predictable and sounds great which I like.

Carl aligned my speakers before my last meet, they sound best ever. I have tried to improve it, but I keep coming back. Nice job!  Write down your recipe.