Neutral or colored Whats your Gig?

[bpape]

Then the entire recording chain (especially all the messing around that the engineers do) is inherently distorted unfortunately. 

Bryan

[steve]

Unfortunately, one cannot control the recording. But I am surprised how good many sound on a good system. TT is also very good, but like all mediums, some recordings are not so good.

     A suggestion, one can do is listen to live instruments as much as possible. I personally find neutral and accurate, live to sound nice and rich. I really don't care for sterile or syrupy that much, but some love it.

When something sounds real, I find that everything falls into place, it gels. The soundstaging, imaging, dynamics, timbre, it is all unified like one performance. One can really get into it.

But one can easily adjust the richness of any system to their desired level. So if one likes it a little richer than neutral/accurate, no problem.

[richidoo]

Then the entire recording chain (especially all the messing around that the engineers do) is inherently distorted unfortunately. 
Bryan

Yes, it most certainly is. There is a lot of ignorance on the recording and production side, and most pros think audiophiles are nuts for looking so much closer into the physics of sound reproduction than they do. We pursue perfection, they pursue good enough for the customer's needs. But some labels make the effort and think like an audiophile, so those are worth tweaking the system to hear in their full glory.  

I don't put much faith in pro-audio endorsements of hifi products, they have a totally different motivation. They think audiophiles are crazy, maybe because they know that they have destroyed the details audiphiles pay thousands to hear. haha Audiophiles seem to worship pros' opinions, I don't know why.
Thanks Bryan
Rich

[bpape]

Yup.  I had a conversation recently with someone who does recording.  He was explaining to me how he had to chop off the bass drum so that he could then reexpand it to make is sound the way he wanted to.  My question was "why not just mic it so it sounds like what it does live?"  His answer was "If I did that, your system wouldn't handle it.  My response was "I'm a big boy, let me try it - it's my system."

Bryan

[rollo]

Scotty,
           Let me define colored to me. Its not syrupy or mushy its real. Colored sound to me captures the real live experience. Rich, dynamic and not overly detailed. I like to sit mid hall at a live event. So when the drummer strikes the cymbals I can here the shimmer but not the metallic hit. If I was on stage or in the first 7 rows I would here the metallic hit and then the shimmer. Accurate, no distortion but from a different perspective. If were talking first order distortion I'll agree 100%, if were talking second order I'll disagree. Second order distortion is not perceived a bad thing to our ears. Actually its blessing in disquise. Bringing the natural warmth and richness to the reproduction of the recording.
        If it was just distortion we can all go out and buy some Sansui gear .000017 total harmonic distortion. Cheap shot, sorry but seriously all sound has to have the color of live music.  Halcro went to great lengths to eliminate distortion.  Innovative resonance control, cutting edge interior circuit board architecture and high quality parts. To me it sounds threadbare and bright. They eliminated all the distortion but left out the color of the sound. The part that gives you goosebumps and that hit in the heart. Neutral to the source at this point in time is not a reality, so IMO we need to add something somewhere to achieve that. A graphic EQ is a start, bring back tone controls as well.
      Just color me purple. I hope the newbies to our Nervosa read all opinions presented here as this is a learning experience for all. Not which camp is right. Its all so subjective. But its fun.


rollo  
        So, colored for me neutral for you.  

[rollo]

Let me say it another way - truly transparent, as in an absolute portal to the recording venue, would be ideal.  However, that is not reality with any gear.  The way I think most folks use "neutral" and "transparent" describes sound that I don't generally care for.  To me, "colored" gear has better harmonic density and creates a better illusion of reality, i.e. more transparent.

   


Mikey, Mikey, Mikey. Your good, very good You got a talent. HE,He,He.

rollo

[richidoo]

I did not care for my first Halcro audition in Denver, but I tend to doubt the problem was the low distortion - although it certainly could have been, and I stay open minded to that possibility, if only because it came from you, rollo. haha   As soon as I can audition d88/dm10 at home where I am familiar with everything else, I'll let you know..... 

I understand the pro mentality, they are constantly focused on fixing problems and making it work for radio, marketing, making it sound like pop (like all the other crap) which is what the customers think they want. They work to a budget because it is their job, investing in 3000 power cables means raising prices and losing future rap star kids as customers.

On the other hand, when we first started in this hobby, there was a lot of crazy shit to have to digest, like cables, tubes/ss amps, shakti stones, system matching, etc. After a lot of time and money we worked through it all to find a peaceful state of mind - knowing enough to be happy for our own needs. The pro has no desire, time or money to make that journey into amateur Wonderland. But being open minded to the possiblities is free. Admitting that a wacko audiophile hobbyist knows more about audio fidelity than the pro does is asking a lot. We know jack about their task processes or how to master a recording, but we know a lot about what happens to a signal after 100 opamps, slider resistors, DADADADADAC and miles of rubber and vinyl clad cables, stuff about which most engineers seem pretty clueless. Thank goodness there are exceptions! Guess what, those few are also audiophiles ... hhehehe

[_Scotty_]

rollo, we may have a semantic problem here. I hear live music as not having any color at all. It just is. Whole and complete.
I hear it get altered in the recording /replay process and I would at least like to hear everything on the recording. On the best recordings much of the that which makes a live performance a real event is present waiting to be recovered. I have never heard Halcro equipment but I it wouldn't be the first time something went wrong and the life went out of the music. I agree with the threadbare assessment of most of the gear  for sale, I would also add dynamically lifeless to the list of problems. I am once again reminded of Sturgeon's Revelation.
  In the absence of an alternative to equipment which strips the life and "color" out of your music I can hardly fault you for seeking to add a substitute for the missing information.
In the end you have to do what works for you.
Scotty

[AcidJazz]

Guess I favor 'colored'...been to enough concerts at Avery Fisher and cringed at the sound...Carnegie Hall I just love.
I like my sound slightly warm.

[wet weasel]

Ancient Klingon proverb: "Resolution is a dish best served cold."
cheers ww

[steve]

"rollo, we may have a semantic problem here. I hear live music as not having any color at all. It just is. Whole and complete.
I hear it get altered in the recording /replay process and I would at least like to hear everything on the recording. On the best recordings much of the that which makes a live performance a real event is present waiting to be recovered."

Nicely stated Scotty. I also think at least part of the problem is recovering what is on the recorded medium, whether LP or CD. Artificially adding harmonics does not recover true inner detail and nuisances as you mention. There is something(s) missing that degrades the realism.

"In the absence of an alternative to equipment which strips the life and "color" out of your music I can hardly fault you for seeking to add a substitute for the missing information.
In the end you have to do what works for you.
Scotty"

Well stated again Scotty.

[rollo]

rollo, we may have a semantic problem here. I hear live music as not having any color at all. It just is. Whole and complete.
I hear it get altered in the recording /replay process and I would at least like to hear everything on the recording. On the best recordings much of the that which makes a live performance a real event is present waiting to be recovered. I have never heard Halcro equipment but I it wouldn't be the first time something went wrong and the life went out of the music. I agree with the threadbare assessment of most of the gear  for sale, I would also add dynamically lifeless to the list of problems. I am once again reminded of Sturgeon's Revelation.
  In the absence of an alternative to equipment which strips the life and "color" out of your music I can hardly fault you for seeking to add a substitute for the missing information.
In the end you have to do what works for you.
Scotty

 That is the point. What works for you. The purpose of the post was to get everyones opinion of what floats their boat. There is no right and wrong here. However netral to the csource reprodution of the live event is impossible with todays equip. Close Say about 80% on the best systems. Since we cannot achieve netrality IMO a little added color does the trick. From the first note struck into the mike the reproduction process is being hampered.
   So in the end for the user its subjective as to what we hear. Again if you sit at a live event in the first row,mid hall and back of hall you will hear a different presentation of the event. First row loud, dynamic and detailed. Mid hall a bit less volume and less detail. Back row a dull,laid back sound with no detail, exception being bells and that piccolo or flute.
    It would be Nirvana to have a completely neutral reproduction of the live event. Close yes but still no cigar. I am NOT saying one presentaion is better than the other. Just different.
    Another problem is that unless you playback something recorded in your listening room there is no way you can say its neutral to the event. We have no clue what the engineer did to the sound to make the recording sound the way he wants it to.
    Know someone who plays an instrument say Guitar or piano? Record it on a Minidisc and on Analog tape. Then play it back on your system. See how close you get.

rollo

[_Scotty_]

rollo, I like your last idea about listening to someone live in your room and then listening to a recording made of them playing in your room. The only problem is you get to hear your room acoustics twice. Once when they are playing live and twice when you record them in your room and play it back in your room. You have recorded the reverberation field they created while playing and then energized the field again when you listen to the recording. The way to avoid this is to record them in a studio as dryly as possible so that you are listening to the reverberation characteristics your room has added to playback only one time instead of twice.
Scotty

[miklorsmith]

To really do it right, I think you have to combine both - have them play in your room but record them in the "dead space".  Otherwise, there is no "zero point" of reference.

[Carlman]

The character of your room is a major form of coloration.
A neutral room is an anechoic chamber.  It's not dead, it's just not adding anything back to the sound being produced. 

If you like room interaction, you like color, plain and simple.  (Unless you are listening to recordings setup in an anechoic chamber, the same size space as your living room with similar speaker/microphone placement.)  It should sound as if they are playing in your room when played back.

Seems like a lot of trouble to me.  I don't mind the colorations even if they aren't true to the source... If I find them 'true enough' and can take myself to audio-fantasy-land while listening, I'm pleased.

-C