Author Topic: Today at 4:30: G2G Amps and Speakers  (Read 25262 times)

Offline Carlman

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Re: Today at 4:30: G2G Amps and Speakers
« Reply #45 on: September 28, 2009, 05:06:27 AM »
Thanks to everyone for making it a fun night..
We started by letting everyone get acquainted with the upgraded Piega's playing on Steve's reference system:
AR Ref 3 preamp
2 Butler 2250 amps in mono block mode
Raysonic 168 CDP
JPS IC's and SC's
Black Sand Cable PC's
Equi=Tech 1.5R power conditioner

We also connected my audio PC/DAC to the preamp to access other music because Steve left some of his reference discs at home...  :duh

I was familiar with the speakers so I got familiar with Steve's gear.  All I can say is Steve really knows how to put together a good system.  Wow.  What an excellent match of synergy.  The AR was buttery smooth but elegant and detailed... Finesse with gravitas.  Very unexpected.  It was warm in a good way, in that it was infinitely listenable but all the details were there.  I immediately starting trying to figure out how I could get that kind of magic in my system's sound... without having to buy a Ref 3.  Long story short, I can't. ;)

Anyway, we swapped out the modified Piega's with the stock ones... (no small task)  Then started playing again.. no other changes were made.  To my ears, all the things that I'd come to appreciate that the upgrade fixed was now gone... The highs were thin, the dynamics were diminished.. but the sweetness was back.  The stock design has a soft, sweet presentation that is very delicate and enoyable.  I can see how I lived with it... it's a very nice sound.  But in the end, the upper mid distortion that previously drove me crazy started driving me crazy again.. I couldn't delineate differences during complex passages... when a lot is going on, the sound falls apart for me.

We swapped back in the modified Piega's and I think the differences were more apparent.  With the new speakers in place, we played the Diana Krall song, "Case of You" which on Steve's system is just divine.  I really enjoyed listening to it.. which is a first.  I can't listen to the words (because I find them ridiculous) but it sounds so real and personal.  There is an intimate sound with Steve's system that shined through with the upgraded speakers that I didn't get with the non-upgraded system.  The lack of distortion just made everything better to me.

I wanted to see how much magic was in the AR Ref3 so we plugged in my preamp, the Belles 21a.  Hm.  It wasn't a bad sound but the 'magic' wasn't happening in comparison.  However, it was plenty good enough to compare power cords.  So, next we had the long-awaited power cord comparison.

First up was Paul Kaplan's latest cord, the big and stiff one.  We listened then compared it to the JPS Kaptavator.. then swapped back.  Then listened to Black Sand Cable's Chromium, Kaplan's Copper, BSC Silver Ref, (new) Statement and old Statement... then JPS Aluminata... not necessarily in that exact order.  It was getting late and I was doing the comparisons for the attending group moreso than for a written review.  Everything was connected to Steve's system and we used a test track on his CDP.  RichardS will have to let us know who that Portuguese singer was.  The piece had some nice variety so we got a good impression of what the cables were doing in a short time.

Bottom line for me is that the new Statement is the best match for my system and tastes.  I liked it more than any of the others we tried, which is saying something... because all of them were good.  One thing I'd forgotten and really enjoyed about BSC's cables is the transparency and accuracy.  Starting with the Chromium and going up, you don't feel like you're missing anything until you go up a step.. and it's just levels of refinement.. So, you get what you paid for.. but you always get something. :)  

One cable I wish we'd had on hand to try (conveniently) was the JPS AC+.  I know it is a good synergistic match for my preamp.  It was connected to my DAC and in my late night stuper I forgot we weren't using it.. I could've robbed it easily..  :duh  I may do a quick comparison to the S1 soon if I get a few minutes.

The fancy Kaplan cable wasn't a good match for me.  It made a studio recording sound like it was live at Carnegie Hall (to quote Rich)... It threw a big soundstage and had a 'wow you are there' effect... but I didn't care for that... The JPS cables did something similar to that as well, but differently.. They had a 'look at me' effect that didn't draw me into the music like the BSC cables did.

We did finally try the copper cable from Kaplan.. I thought it was a bit laid back and overall pleasant.  I didn't think it was better than anything else we heard.. It had a little more color in it than the BSC Chromium or Silver Ref...

After this, we packed up Steve.. and RichardS left.. and I shared my latest vinyl 'finds' with Rich.. man I love the sound of vinyl.  Thanks for listening with me, Rich.  I decided my next meet will be a listening-only and social session... and there will be a heavy emphasis on the analog source. ;)

Thanks again to everyone who made it.

-Carl
« Last Edit: September 28, 2009, 05:11:31 AM by Carlman »
I really enjoy listening to music.

Offline RichardS

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Re: Today at 4:30: G2G Amps and Speakers
« Reply #46 on: September 28, 2009, 08:15:50 AM »
Thanks to Carl and Christine, and kudos to Steve for literally trucking his whole system to Carl's.
I was really looking forward to hearing the crossover mods on the Piegas (I have the C-10s).

Basically, I had a similar experience to Carl's. I thought the new X/O improved an already good speaker considerably. The first thing I noticed was improved dynamics and sense of ease. Then the increased bass extension and detail. The mids opened up and everything felt less held back, less restrained. There was less hardness in the highs when the piano hit hard. I'll be talking to Rick at some point about the upgrade.
BTW, the piece we listened to (over and over and over again) was Ana Caram's 'Sem Voce' (Chesky). Also, Ray Brown Trio's 'Bluesology.'

The power cord shootout was fun, too. One component (Belles preamp) plugged directly to wall. Who knows if the results here would have carried over to other components. The changes were relatively quick (half song each). Like Carl, I thought the Black Sand Statements were the best match here. Smooth and balanced frequency response. Great bass. Full, luscious and natural sounding voice. Only drawback was maybe the details a little smoothed over compared to the mighty Aluminata or Kaptovator. I also thought the latest Kaplan was a little too midrange-forward on the Belles. I use a BS Statement on my sub amp at home. My other one was replaced by a Verastarr Grand Illusion 2 on my Tact amp, but I may try it on the preamp where a Fusion Impulse now resides.

I was also really impressed with Steve's ARC preamp, and 1300-watt mono amps. I've always thought that my speakers were being held back by the inefficient impedance of the Piegas. The mods w/ 4th order X/O should help here considerably. Listening to my system when I got home, I felt like I was putting on an old pair of shoes, very comfortable but maybe missing something. My main disappointment was in the cymbals on the Ray Brown disc, and the lack of midrange bloom that the tubes provide. I'm pretty committed to my Tact set-up for what it does to the bass, but I'm also frustrated I can't get the delicate brush strokes out of my system that the ARC Ref 3 provided. Trade-offs, trade-offs....

Offline richidoo

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Re: Today at 4:30: G2G Amps and Speakers
« Reply #47 on: September 28, 2009, 11:03:10 AM »
It made a studio recording sound like it was live at Carnegie Hall (to quote Rich)...

Not "sounded like Carnegie Hall," but had the feeling of an important venue, with excitement and specialness feeling happening, like seeing dizzy's trumpet resting on the stand before the show, you know what you're in for. I really liked the newest Kaplan Rhodium or whatever it is called. The reason that I liked it was that it lights up the midrange in a magical way that enhances the enjoyment of the music very strongly, as if instead of listening to a studio recording, you were at a historic concert at Carnegie Hall with the excitement and anticipation of great music in the air. The ARC preamp does this too, and feastrex drivers, something very few components can do.  It made the music seem bigger than reality. The colors are richer, but a little too vivid sometimes. Soprano sax on the intro of this song was "Amperexed" with the Kaplan. Very beautiful, but less easy to tell it was a soprano, a notoriously difficult tone to reproduce accurately. The singers boobs were bigger, her hair darker, a little taller and sassier. I liked this chick. I think this wire will be very popular.

Black Sands Statement 1 was more refined and tonally accurate than the Kaplan, but not as emotionally stimulating which for Carl and Richard was a good thing. The music stands on it's own, with a light gloss applied,  pretty, clean, sensuous, but still serious and extended. I think Richard noticed the Kaplan seemed a little less authoritative in the bass than Statement One, but I didn't concentrate on that so I didn't notice. I was captivated by the singer's voice. The Statement 1 more equally highlighted the transient sounds. The singer was more natural sounding, less puffed up, normal boobs on an swimmer's build, and she was more serious about her singing than on seducing me.

All these wires are extended and neutral enough to be serious players. Only the older Kaplan copper was not really in the same league. But the surprise at the low price end was the bright red BSA chrome. Clear and clean, no editorializing, no bigger boobs or powdered nose, but the music was alive and touchable. What a nice surprise. Silver was a notch more refined, on it's way toward Statement 1, all having very similar competent sound, with varying degrees of suave. Most of us in the NC clique own some Black Sands PCs because they are neutral but "friendly" sounding. (I know, Iknow... "friendly..." but you know what I mean when you start comparing the sounds of others that are less friendly, more horny or more IRS... it's crazy these stupid audio descriptors.) Always good value and service from BSA makes any of his PCs an easy choice.

For me I still like the JPS buttoned down authoritative precision. It is a house sound, but it is the sound of deliberate nothingness. You can feel it as a difference from other wire, but when you try to listen for it all you hear is "more."  If you think about the JPS house sound in contrast to less controlled and more natural "flavors of copper" wires it is a little bit of a letdown. Why can't be as exciting as Kaplan? or as approachable and friendly sounding at Black Sand? Why is less more? Why is more better? Shit, am I really talking about power cords?  I guess I'm in the right place at AN...

I think Kaptivator is similar to Aluminata without the thick aluminum particulate shield. And just like with the SC3 speaker cables similar to Aluminata without the particulate shield, I usually prefer the unshielded version to the Aluminata which puffs up the bass each time I've heard it (except as ICs.) Aluminata SC and PC is rich and warm, which will appeal to many, but I rather have the lithe bass detail than the comforting warmth.  But Richard and Carl liked a lot about it.

JPS Kaptivator was my favorite of all. It fleshed out the singers bosom almost as well as Kaplan, but also gave her vulnerability, nerves, and tangible tonal detail and microdynamics that made her seem very real. I could fly into the music easiest with the Kaptivator.  In last night's system, though, in direct comparison to the smoother sounding BSA and Kaplan, the Kaptivator sometimes seemed to put too much into the speakers. The added information was difficult to keep up with and created anxiety in comparison to the easy to swallow flavors of the others. If I wasn't already in heat for this girl because of the Kaplan experience I would not have enjoyed looking in her navel as much with the JPS. I think this was not fault of the Kaptivator, but of two other issues. The speakers aren't fully baked yet and didn't handle the extreme dynamic detail of Kaptivator with grace, and tempo of swappage was too fast to really get adjusted to each wire and absorb the more subtle aspects. Both circumstances were unavoidable, the night is only so long and comparing speakers was the main goal, leaving a shorter time for PCs. The speaker crossovers are expecting more subtle tweaks, this is only the first draft.  Maybe the JPS Power AC+ would have been just right for those speakers and my mood at that moment in time, JPS clarity without the intensity of Kaptivator.

I think the treble on the Selah C8 is still a tad hot, but it was expected that there will be some fine tuning after parts burn in and Carl has some ear time with them. So in last night's context the new BSA Statement 1 and new Kaplan Rhodium had the best synergy. For my own system I would probably want to choose Kaptivator, but I might have the same issues and find a more relaxed wire better suited. Only extended listening can say for sure. These quick swaps are fun and give a basic DNA, but a lot goes undiscovered in fast swaps on one song.

Thanks to Paul and John for sending the wires down our way. What a blast it was to compare them all together on a such a revealling system.
Rich

Offline bpape

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Re: Today at 4:30: G2G Amps and Speakers
« Reply #48 on: September 28, 2009, 01:26:47 PM »
I like bigger boobs as a rule...  :yay2:

Bryan
I am serious... and don't call me Shirley

Offline hometheaterdoc

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Re: Today at 4:30: G2G Amps and Speakers
« Reply #49 on: September 28, 2009, 01:45:56 PM »
Sorry I missed this... I  was stuck in the heat....  the view isn't bad from my room, though:



I really wish I could have heard the comparison... would have been very interesting...

I'd be curious to see how much Carl's preamp changes with a few tube changes.  I ordered a bunch of tubes for my unit and I'll be curious to hear whether any of them change how things balance in Carl's setup....
Shane Sangster
Used to be Night & Day Audio.......

Offline stereofool

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Re: Today at 4:30: G2G Amps and Speakers
« Reply #50 on: September 28, 2009, 02:07:53 PM »
Sorry I missed this... I  was stuck in the heat....  the view isn't bad from my room, though:



I really wish I could have heard the comparison... would have been very interesting...

I'd be curious to see how much Carl's preamp changes with a few tube changes.  I ordered a bunch of tubes for my unit and I'll be curious to hear whether any of them change how things balance in Carl's setup....


Oh yeah! We feel really sorry for you, being down in Aruba...and having to 'suffer' so  :roll:!

Steve
Have you ever noticed.... Anyone going slower than you is an idiot...and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?

Offline mdconnelly

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Re: Today at 4:30: G2G Amps and Speakers
« Reply #51 on: September 28, 2009, 02:31:50 PM »
Rich, I do believe you've given us a whole new scale by which to measure the resulting sound from any component, wire or environment change  :rofl:   Let's call it seductivity!

Offline richidoo

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Re: Today at 4:30: G2G Amps and Speakers
« Reply #52 on: September 28, 2009, 02:47:55 PM »
haha! Well whatever the scale Paul's wire is toward the top.  Makes those whiny conceited modern audiophile sing-alike divas sound almost tolerable!

But I gotta agree with Carl about Krall's Kase of Yew. I connected to it with that system last night. The Butlers never sounded better. I think maybe that one that I borrowed from you Steve needed some wake up break in time which I did not provide. Back then I beleived a component only needed to be broken in once and subsequently only needed  a  30 minute warmup. Now I know break in needs to be repeated after extended downtime. Oh the joy!

Offline Carlman

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Re: Today at 4:30: G2G Amps and Speakers
« Reply #53 on: September 28, 2009, 04:22:55 PM »
My system's been running 24/7.. I like it in the 'ready mode' and don't mind paying the few extra cents to keep it all going... Plus (I like to think) it makes the gear last longer.

It was a really nice meet.. there was a lot to like and not much to 'not like'.  I like the original C8's and the upgraded ones.. I liked all the power cords..

BTW, Paul will have to chime in on what his cables are called.  'The copper' was his cheapest one.  'The Rhodium' we didn't hear this time... we'd heard it before.. We compared his new one: 'The new stiff/thick one that costs like 7 or 800'  Not a catchy name... but that's how I know them.

I'm looking forward to hearing those tubes as well, Shane.. Hope you're having fun, looks great!

Overall, the more I think about it, we were grading on levels of seductivity last night.  We definitely need more women at these meets. ;)

-C
I really enjoy listening to music.

Bigfish8

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Re: Today at 4:30: G2G Amps and Speakers
« Reply #54 on: September 28, 2009, 04:36:29 PM »
It sounds like you guys had a busy meet but a lot of fun.  I was sad to miss it but when I got home from the Eastern Shore I was just too tired to do audio justice. 

Shane:

Our hearts are really bleeding for you!  I just have one question, Why are you spending time on a computer?  You are alone in a beautiful spot with a beautiful woman!  Enjoy!

Ken

mgalusha

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Re: Today at 4:30: G2G Amps and Speakers
« Reply #55 on: September 28, 2009, 06:49:48 PM »
I *think* the standard model is the HE with either the copper or rhodium plugs and the new stiff/thick one is going to be the HS. I can't say for sure but I've been playing with the new speaker cables and he mentioned something about the new power cord and I think it was the HS.

I'm sure Paul will correct this if I'm wrong. :)

mike

BTW, Paul will have to chime in on what his cables are called.  'The copper' was his cheapest one.  'The Rhodium' we didn't hear this time... we'd heard it before.. We compared his new one: 'The new stiff/thick one that costs like 7 or 800'  Not a catchy name... but that's how I know them.

pmkap

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Re: Today at 4:30: G2G Amps and Speakers
« Reply #56 on: September 28, 2009, 07:16:39 PM »
Well dang! I've never heard my new power cords described as zaftig, but I'll take it as a compliment. Actually, with the proper applications of isolation/damping devices on the components, my new cables could also meet Spinal Tap's definition of 'big bottom'.  8) It all depends on the system. I've had a close encounter with Black Diamond Racing Cones, on the external power supply for my CAT SL-! preamp, for pity's sake, and it made the midrange less forward, and the bass deeper, yet more controlled. As a purveyor of snake oil, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that other flavors of snake oil are also effective.
I don't doubt that in Carl's system the new Black Sands were preferable, and appreciate the chance to demo my cables to you Southerners.
Those new, ungainly powercords were formerly nicknamed the H.S. (Holy Sh**!), but in the interest of nomenclature consistency, the cords are the GS (Gobsmacked) PCs, and the new speaker cables, GS SCs.
The GS PC I sent had 15amp NEMA copper connectors, also available in rhodium, and can be provided with a 20 amp IEC, or the new Powercon 32 amp connectors.

Many thanks,
Paul
 

Offline richidoo

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Re: Today at 4:30: G2G Amps and Speakers
« Reply #57 on: September 28, 2009, 07:55:35 PM »

mgalusha

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Re: Today at 4:30: G2G Amps and Speakers
« Reply #58 on: September 28, 2009, 08:00:52 PM »
...my new cables could also meet Spinal Tap's definition of 'big bottom'. 

Big bottom, big bottom
Talk about bum cakes, my girl's got 'em
Big bottom drive me out of my mind
How could I leave this behind?

sorry, just couldn't resist.

Offline bpape

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Re: Today at 4:30: G2G Amps and Speakers
« Reply #59 on: September 28, 2009, 08:18:15 PM »
Wow.  If you didn't hear the new (GS?) rev Rhodiums, you're missing something.  I have several on loan in my system for burn in/RMAF use.  Serious improvement over both of the older ones and the coppers.  They're not leaving...

Bryan
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