AudioNervosa
Group Therapy => NC Triangulation => Topic started by: Carlman on September 14, 2009, 11:47:10 AM
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Come to think of it, that's a great idea for a get together as it's just down the street and easy to transport them that short distance... Carl? :)
I'm already planning a speaker comparison between my upgraded C8's and Steve's stock ones.. why not make it about speakers? I have no issue with that.
We may need a pre-meeting to get the right amp for the comparison.. or at least try the 402 on the Harbeth's to see if that's a good combo... I'd be willing to help get it all setup and such. I'd like to hear the Belles amps at some point too, though. I don't have an exact date on when I'll have my speakers back in and playing.. but should be within 2 weeks. You're welcome to bring the Harbeth's over and hear them here sometime.. just need to plan it. Right now I'm using rear channel speakers for fronts and it's a bit wimpy in there. I miss my speakers. :(
-C
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Ooh, ooh... Can I bring mine too?? (http://www.audiocircle.com/Smileys/audiocircle/sm_hyper.gif)
A couple different amps on hand would be nice. Carl can organize the comparison like N. Korean military parade so a few more variables won't dilute the results or the fun. I think Steve's AR 100W tube amp is one of the best tube amps ever made, should make a nice match to Harbeth and the new sensitive side of Piega. Although the stock C8s will protest furiously. But that's the kind of thing we want to hear, no?
What I am most interested to know about the next G2G is what kind of dessert will Vera Askew make for us? Did everybody have her poundcake? I also hope that Steve doesn't think that just because he brings 300 pounds of speakers from 100 miles away that he is excused from baking the official "G2G cookies." [-X
I just love that we are meeting every month now instead of every 3 or 4 or 6 months. I'm gonna have to stick my leg in the door to get on the schedule again. I know, I know.... not until my acoustics are finished. :x
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OK, so let's figure out what we have in this new thread and plan it. How many amps and speakers are coming?
Speakers:
Harbeth's -HTDoc
C8 LTD's (upgraded) -Carlman
C8 LTD's (stock) -Stereofool
Timepiece 2.1's -BigFish
Amps:
MC-402 -Carlman
AR 100 -Richidoo/Stereofool
Belles/LSD -HTDoc
Butler 2250's -Stereofool
TacT 2150 (Maui mod'ed) - RichardS
Cables:
I want to do a power cord rematch, on the preamp only. We didn't include the copper Kaplans last time.. and I've gotten some new cables from Black Sand Cable that I think are stellar. I'd like to do the following:
BSC Statement One (latest version)
Kaplan Copper and Rhodium versions
JPS AC+ and Kaptivator (if HTDoc has available)
Military parade style may be required with that much stuff. It's 3 meets worth of comparisons... between the amps, speakers, and cables. With big speakers we will be limited to time and space... but I'll do my best. This will definitely require a couple of weeks to put together.. Getting the gear here, figuring out what works/doesn't, etc.
I like the idea that there be no G2G at Rich's until the panels are finished and in place. :twisted: He had how many G2G's already? Payback! hahaha
Let me know what you guys think. I have no problem having 2 or 3 smaller meets to compare all of the above.
-C
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Sure it will be a challenge, but I will happily bring my C8's (huff-puff) :shock:.
I can bring over the 2250's for more power :twisted:.
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I was kidding. (http://www.audiocircle.com/Smileys/audiocircle/sm_hyper.gif) Ushers are just to big to move across the room much less across town.
But I will bring more vegetables, and Steve's amp and whatever else.
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Carl
If you're up for it (and because I'm interested in possibly upgrading my Piegas too) -- mind if I also bring my Maui-modded Tact amp, so I can see how the differences pan out (just on the Piegas)?
If you want a couple other cords, I can bring a Verastarr Grand Illusion and a Fusion Audio (I have the Enchanter and the Impulse)....
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Carl:
I don't know if it would be appropriate or even if there would be any interst but I could bring the SP Tech Timepieces! Just let me know!
Ken
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For cable comparisons, I want to keep it to power only.. so as long as you're bringing power cords, that's fine. I'd love to hear the 2150 w/ the mods! I've been very interested to hear that for a long time. :)
Ken, the Timepieces would be nice to hear again. It's been too long.. and would provide the other end of the spectrum to what the Harbeth's do. I'm curious as to how they'd do in my room... might rock it.. I don't know. They sound different every time I hear them.
The more I think about it, the more I think we'll have to do a 2-day event... Still figuring it out but I don't see how else at the moment.
Oh, and gee, Rich.. thanks.. got my hopes up.. I figured by the end of the meet you'd be hoping for a speaker trade. ;)
-C
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Oh, and gee, Rich.. thanks.. got my hopes up.. I figured by the end of the meet you'd be hoping for a speaker trade. ;)
After hauling them over there I would only be hoping for a hernia operation. :duh
I can bring the Feastrex horns if there is interest, but I don't want to embarrass all the other speakers. 8)
2 days? :wtf: Run it like your cable comparo and we'll be done by 9:30. :lol:
One thing to consider, any unused speakers must be removed from the room or they will mess with the playing speakers. :lmc:
There, now I have used all of my fav emotees in one post. Good night. :yay2:
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I've got several Power AC+ and Kaptovator cords here.... at least I have a couple that aren't already out on demo with folks... I can bring them along... When is that comparison happening? It might be beneficial to have sooner rather than later..............
You're welcome to try any and all gear that I have here to match up to the speakers, including DACs and preamps I have here... the VT-01 is getting more hours on it as we speak and so is the modded DAC...
Personally, I like the way you run things.. being organized isn't necessarily a bad thing... you at least get a brief glimpse of all the stuff on hand rather than just floundering around and being more social.... not that there is anything wrong with that :)... that can be a really great time as well.......
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Thanks for the offer, Shane.. I'll take you up on any help you can give at this point.. I'll need to get this event setup and organized fairly soon.. Could do a warmup/pre-meet this weekend.. I had a trip planned that may be falling through...
-C
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Dang Carl,
All these soirees and I never get invited.... (quite difficult as I live in the Nasty Apple)
If you're interested, I could possibly send along a couple of my new power cords, the H.S., in both rhodium and copper. These are a substantial step up, in both price and performance, from my $299 H.E. power cords. Even so, I feel they are a price/performance leader. YMMV Have you settled on a date? It might be difficult to get the cables to you prior to RMAF.
Regards,
Paul
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Paul, everyone here is invited... not sure why you're not feeling the love... especially since part of the reason is to compare YOUR cords.. ;)
I'm planning on doing the cord comparison soon.. like within the next weekend or the one following. I'm OK with how many power cords we have now.. unless what I have is not representative. On the cord review I'll put the price as part of the details. I'm just now getting the agenda put together.
-C
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forget Carl... *I* want to hear the latest and greatest :)... if we're going to listen to an expensive JPS Labs cord and Black Sands pricier models, I'd like to see how your best compares to it. Plus, if its better than all the rest in Carl's system, it should generate some interest online and locally to get you a few sales...
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OK, fine.. basically if it's a power cord, amp or speaker, and it gets here in the next 5-10 days, we'll put it on the agenda to be heard.
-C
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OK, now I see why you will need 2 days. :rofl:
The more the merrier - imo
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Hey Carl,
As of 9:28am today, Sat. Sept. 19th, the powercord arrived at your post office. Hopefully, it will be delivered today. :D
-Paul
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Our mail already came... so I won't get it till tomorrow. :(
edit: wrong! I guess we didn't get yesterday's mail.. the cord is here! :) :)
You forgot to put an address and a date for where it needs to be in the box.. I'll get some ear time on it shortly... and have a couple of mini-meets in the coming days.
Tomorrow afternoon works for me after 4 or so... if anyone's interested in hearing some comparisons.
-C
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I'll be there 7ish. Looking forward to hearing the Kaplan cords in comparison to some of our favorites.
BTW what speakers are you using tomorrow? :drool:
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Shane is here now setting up the Harbeths, his DAC, Butler Monads, all JPS cabling, etc... At 6 I should be picking up my Piega's with Rick's upgraded crossovers..
We'll probably compare the SN DAC to the Buffalo at some point... the Monads to the MC402, the Harbeth's to the Piegas, and then come up with a good system for comparing power cords at some point between today and tomorrow. I have some work to do tomorrow so I'm not sure how far I'll get... so, tomorrow's meet may be loose and unorganized... just a casual g2g with maybe 1 or 2 real comparisons of gear.
-C
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Thanks to Shane, Steve and Rich for stopping by tonight.. Had a good time listening to the various gear and such.. nice, laid back time... We had no agenda... The Piega's are still moving in 1-foot increments.. but are much closer to their final resting place. Every inch counts for how they image and how they gel with the room.
I'm still amazed at the amount of grunge-removal there is in the upgraded speakers. I can hear the full sound of each instrument so much better... which is very important to me.. because I listen to a lot of layered/textured stuff. I also realized it's important to match your gear to your music tastes. I think my tastes are for wild and emotional music with a mix of of electronics.. with big powerful bass as well. These speaker deliver everything but the lowest octave for that... while still being capable of handling a mix of other stuff too... including folk and bluegrassy music.
-C
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Sounds good Carl. I liked the all tubes electronics best, but for your kind of music, the Mac was obviously the best sound, enough power and clarity. Even after the upgrades you still have excellent synergy.
After Shane left we moved the speakers about a foot to where they were before this g2g, and everything clicked. Before that things sounded OK, but not great.
Thanks for the invite
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What do you all think of this coming Saturday, Sept. 26th for the C8 vs C8 showdown? Followed by power cord comparisons.. and then amp comparisons?
To Rich's post..
The Piega's require themselves to be in a very specific spot.. I know all speakers are like this but mine seem to be particularly sensitive to placement. I've still got to move them in and out now and see what happens.. it'll probably take most of an afternoon and they'll get another 10-25% better than what you heard.
I initially liked the all tube sound but on the speed metal and electronica the mids and highs blurred in a way that was distracting. I really like being able to hear deep into complexity while be bombarded emotionally. Once I get a pair of subs, I think they system will be supermega-awesome and satisfy my inner child and grown up exterior. ;)
The Piega sound is not for everyone. They've got weight and life, with a sweetness that is delicate. Like with anything, it's a compromise... and suited to my tastes... with the SN Tube DAC and Mac amp... I could probably go with a different kind of SS amp but I will stick with SS... I like having tubes everywhere else, though.
-C
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The mids and highs are hot enough for delicate music like those hifi singers. But with the volume and bass of metal, there is not enough power in 100W tube amp to keep the uppers in control while delivering current to bass. You would need very high power tubes, like Manley or AR. The metal edge would cut you in half.
In experimenting with Master Set placement I heard clearly what a big difference an 1/8" makes in bass smoothness. It is hard to believe, but it's true. Speaker (and chair) placement is very important to getting max value from this expensive hardware. I'd like to hear the piegas out very far from front wall sometime.
Next weekend is OK for me.
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Carl:
I would love to come to your G2G this weekend but unfortunately I have to be away! I hope you guys have fun and I look forward to reading your comments.
Ken
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The Official Amp and Speaker Meet will be this Saturday at 6:30 PM
We'll miss you, Ken... there will be more, though! :)
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I can't wait to hear) what Rick has done for the Piegas.
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Have fun without me :( I'll be sweating profusely in Aruba to keep someone happy... At least I'll get a couple good Argentine steaks out of it... but for someone that prefers it to be 40 degrees, 104+ everyday on the heat index is pretty miserable...
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Rough life Shane - but somebody has to do it. :duh
Bryan
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Shane, stay in the water with drink in hand and you should be fine :beer:
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You'll be missed, Shane.. but come on by tonight if you can... the earlier the better... Christine's going to kick you out by 8 or 9 to watch 'Dexter', though.
I too am looking forward to the comparison.. I have heard a little break-in happening with the caps.. they started sounding a little bright and forward yesterday.. typical of break-in oscillations in my experience... they'll swing back but it'll be a while. Some would argue it's all in my head... but I would argue there is so much in my head already, I can't make up anything new. ;)
I'm still doing the position-dance with them.. moving them away from the back wall makes them thin and flat.. moving towards the back wall gives a thicker, richer sound with a higher image.. which works out well since that works better in the room functionally.
-C
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Having looked at the weather.. where we have a 90% chance of getting an inch+ of rain throughout the day, I think it's asking a lot to have Steve load up his truck (on his own) with all of his gear, and speakers in the back, dealing with a tarp... etc.. then unloading in the rain once here...
I understand determination but it's just a bunch of guys listening to music at the end of the day.. I'm willing to swap days and do this Sunday (only if the weather report looks better).. or we can do it a different weekend.
I know it's an indoor event but there is a lot of gear to be toted in and out.. and for a pretty good distance... I leave it to Steve since he's bringing it... We could also just get together and hang out, listen to some tunes and not do a lot of gear swapping...
Anything's fine with me.. just wanted to offer some other options due to the weather.
-C
PS.. I spoke with Steve.. I will update this thread with any changes/cancellations by 1:00 PM Saturday.
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Good idea.
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I hate to be a WIMP, but I'd prefer not to haul a bunch of electronics around in the rain.
SO...I chatted with Carl, and we'll wait for a more weather friendly day :roll:!
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OK Steve, that's smart.
Now I get to go to "Game Night" with Julie's work friends. I just hope it's not kareoke again. :roll:
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It's cool.. not wimpy to me. I'm not sure who would be willing to pack their speakers on day like this into an open pickup and drive an hour on the highway.. no way.
There's a chance we'll meet tomorrow but we'll be playing it by ear (so to speak). ;) Sorry we couldn't meet today.
Pray for sunshine! :)
-C
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Bummer, but I completely understand. I knew it was risky renting 'The Tudors' for my wife tonight....
So Carl, any more comments on the 'new' Piegas for those of us chomping at the bit?
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At least it wasn't a Jane Austin movie.. ;)
New Piega's are finally getting close to their final home... I've got them farther into the room... and a little wider than before... i.e. the speakers are closer to the sidewalls than I've had them in the past.
Every fraction of an inch makes a substantial difference to the sound now... so I think I could correct just about any problem anyone has with a nudge. ;) The speakers are more revealing of the source now also. I'd be interested to try some other DAC's now. Shane's Bufalo dac does a great job on bass definition and flushes out the vocals more than my SN DAC.. I'm not sure the difference would've been as clear before.
I'm still VERY happy with them.. and now more than ever. For fun last night.. I decided to put the HT sub into the mix and hear what that would do.. and WOW.. I am going to have do subs... no question. Only problem is my pre doesn't have 2 sets of pre-outs... kind of odd for this nice of a preamp. Rick was right about it being easier to integrate a sub, though... The sub in the rear platform would do with some tweaking.. but a pair of subs in the front will probably sound more 'right'... and of course, cost more money! hahaha. the neverending hobby.
I'm hoping we can get together tomorrow afternoon.. like 3 or 4-ish. Keeping an eye on the weather..
-C
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I was thinking that would be a good position for them Carl. The ideal is to place the woofers at different distances from the surrounding surfaces so reflections cancel at different frequencies. Then you also want them far away from front wall for depth illusion. Distance to floor is fixed, so that makes the distance to sidewall shorter. That works well for the screen angle too. Since you're already killing reflections on the sidewall, so it's a good potential spot. Can't wait to hear that. It's nice when the theory lines up with the reality.
I was thinking that we should mark it so both C8s can go to the same spot for comparison.
I can come tomorrow around 6:30. I guess you'll be mostly done by then tho?
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I was thinking that we should mark it so both C8s can go to the same spot for comparison.
YES...I'm planning on bringing some masking tape to outline speaker position ;)!
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I can come tomorrow around 6:30. I guess you'll be mostly done by then tho?
You know how these things go... we'll probably just be getting started with the 'real comparisons' by then. ;)
-C
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Weather is looking a bit more promising today...it's supposed to stop raining around noon. If so, then I will call Carl, and see if we can GO :D!
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It is a GO! :) :) :)
Steve will get here early to help me setup... and do some initial listening.. then we'll have an official start time of 4:30... Trying to keep it early-ish because I know tomorrow is a 'school day'. ;)
-C
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Fun meet tonight guys. Only 4 people, but we had a blast. Thanks to Carl and Christine for having us over, and special thanks to Steve for hauling up his whole system so he could compare his Piegas with the Selah modded Piegas.
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Yes...thanks to Carl and Christine for their hospitality, once again :clap:!
I did make it home safely, last night and was going to post, but my internet service was lost-in-space. Got the speakers and the screen unloaded , but crashed after that :roll:.
Carl's modded Piega's do sound different, and for the most part give a smoother more relaxed presentation. To me it seemed as though some high end details were lost, but that may have been some of the distortion/extra 'bite' that you get with the stock crossovers.
An additional perk was that I got confirmation that my own system sounds pretty darn good, especially in a nicely designed acoustic space :D. Read that as I need to get off of my butt and get my listening space repaired and treated with my new panels...that are yet to be put together :duh.
As always, it was great to spend time with fellow audiophools :rofl:.
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Thanks to everyone for making it a fun night..
We started by letting everyone get acquainted with the upgraded Piega's playing on Steve's reference system:
AR Ref 3 preamp
2 Butler 2250 amps in mono block mode
Raysonic 168 CDP
JPS IC's and SC's
Black Sand Cable PC's
Equi=Tech 1.5R power conditioner
We also connected my audio PC/DAC to the preamp to access other music because Steve left some of his reference discs at home... :duh
I was familiar with the speakers so I got familiar with Steve's gear. All I can say is Steve really knows how to put together a good system. Wow. What an excellent match of synergy. The AR was buttery smooth but elegant and detailed... Finesse with gravitas. Very unexpected. It was warm in a good way, in that it was infinitely listenable but all the details were there. I immediately starting trying to figure out how I could get that kind of magic in my system's sound... without having to buy a Ref 3. Long story short, I can't. ;)
Anyway, we swapped out the modified Piega's with the stock ones... (no small task) Then started playing again.. no other changes were made. To my ears, all the things that I'd come to appreciate that the upgrade fixed was now gone... The highs were thin, the dynamics were diminished.. but the sweetness was back. The stock design has a soft, sweet presentation that is very delicate and enoyable. I can see how I lived with it... it's a very nice sound. But in the end, the upper mid distortion that previously drove me crazy started driving me crazy again.. I couldn't delineate differences during complex passages... when a lot is going on, the sound falls apart for me.
We swapped back in the modified Piega's and I think the differences were more apparent. With the new speakers in place, we played the Diana Krall song, "Case of You" which on Steve's system is just divine. I really enjoyed listening to it.. which is a first. I can't listen to the words (because I find them ridiculous) but it sounds so real and personal. There is an intimate sound with Steve's system that shined through with the upgraded speakers that I didn't get with the non-upgraded system. The lack of distortion just made everything better to me.
I wanted to see how much magic was in the AR Ref3 so we plugged in my preamp, the Belles 21a. Hm. It wasn't a bad sound but the 'magic' wasn't happening in comparison. However, it was plenty good enough to compare power cords. So, next we had the long-awaited power cord comparison.
First up was Paul Kaplan's latest cord, the big and stiff one. We listened then compared it to the JPS Kaptavator.. then swapped back. Then listened to Black Sand Cable's Chromium, Kaplan's Copper, BSC Silver Ref, (new) Statement and old Statement... then JPS Aluminata... not necessarily in that exact order. It was getting late and I was doing the comparisons for the attending group moreso than for a written review. Everything was connected to Steve's system and we used a test track on his CDP. RichardS will have to let us know who that Portuguese singer was. The piece had some nice variety so we got a good impression of what the cables were doing in a short time.
Bottom line for me is that the new Statement is the best match for my system and tastes. I liked it more than any of the others we tried, which is saying something... because all of them were good. One thing I'd forgotten and really enjoyed about BSC's cables is the transparency and accuracy. Starting with the Chromium and going up, you don't feel like you're missing anything until you go up a step.. and it's just levels of refinement.. So, you get what you paid for.. but you always get something. :)
One cable I wish we'd had on hand to try (conveniently) was the JPS AC+. I know it is a good synergistic match for my preamp. It was connected to my DAC and in my late night stuper I forgot we weren't using it.. I could've robbed it easily.. :duh I may do a quick comparison to the S1 soon if I get a few minutes.
The fancy Kaplan cable wasn't a good match for me. It made a studio recording sound like it was live at Carnegie Hall (to quote Rich)... It threw a big soundstage and had a 'wow you are there' effect... but I didn't care for that... The JPS cables did something similar to that as well, but differently.. They had a 'look at me' effect that didn't draw me into the music like the BSC cables did.
We did finally try the copper cable from Kaplan.. I thought it was a bit laid back and overall pleasant. I didn't think it was better than anything else we heard.. It had a little more color in it than the BSC Chromium or Silver Ref...
After this, we packed up Steve.. and RichardS left.. and I shared my latest vinyl 'finds' with Rich.. man I love the sound of vinyl. Thanks for listening with me, Rich. I decided my next meet will be a listening-only and social session... and there will be a heavy emphasis on the analog source. ;)
Thanks again to everyone who made it.
-Carl
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Thanks to Carl and Christine, and kudos to Steve for literally trucking his whole system to Carl's.
I was really looking forward to hearing the crossover mods on the Piegas (I have the C-10s).
Basically, I had a similar experience to Carl's. I thought the new X/O improved an already good speaker considerably. The first thing I noticed was improved dynamics and sense of ease. Then the increased bass extension and detail. The mids opened up and everything felt less held back, less restrained. There was less hardness in the highs when the piano hit hard. I'll be talking to Rick at some point about the upgrade.
BTW, the piece we listened to (over and over and over again) was Ana Caram's 'Sem Voce' (Chesky). Also, Ray Brown Trio's 'Bluesology.'
The power cord shootout was fun, too. One component (Belles preamp) plugged directly to wall. Who knows if the results here would have carried over to other components. The changes were relatively quick (half song each). Like Carl, I thought the Black Sand Statements were the best match here. Smooth and balanced frequency response. Great bass. Full, luscious and natural sounding voice. Only drawback was maybe the details a little smoothed over compared to the mighty Aluminata or Kaptovator. I also thought the latest Kaplan was a little too midrange-forward on the Belles. I use a BS Statement on my sub amp at home. My other one was replaced by a Verastarr Grand Illusion 2 on my Tact amp, but I may try it on the preamp where a Fusion Impulse now resides.
I was also really impressed with Steve's ARC preamp, and 1300-watt mono amps. I've always thought that my speakers were being held back by the inefficient impedance of the Piegas. The mods w/ 4th order X/O should help here considerably. Listening to my system when I got home, I felt like I was putting on an old pair of shoes, very comfortable but maybe missing something. My main disappointment was in the cymbals on the Ray Brown disc, and the lack of midrange bloom that the tubes provide. I'm pretty committed to my Tact set-up for what it does to the bass, but I'm also frustrated I can't get the delicate brush strokes out of my system that the ARC Ref 3 provided. Trade-offs, trade-offs....
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It made a studio recording sound like it was live at Carnegie Hall (to quote Rich)...
Not "sounded like Carnegie Hall," but had the feeling of an important venue, with excitement and specialness feeling happening, like seeing dizzy's trumpet resting on the stand before the show, you know what you're in for. I really liked the newest Kaplan Rhodium or whatever it is called. The reason that I liked it was that it lights up the midrange in a magical way that enhances the enjoyment of the music very strongly, as if instead of listening to a studio recording, you were at a historic concert at Carnegie Hall with the excitement and anticipation of great music in the air. The ARC preamp does this too, and feastrex drivers, something very few components can do. It made the music seem bigger than reality. The colors are richer, but a little too vivid sometimes. Soprano sax on the intro of this song was "Amperexed" with the Kaplan. Very beautiful, but less easy to tell it was a soprano, a notoriously difficult tone to reproduce accurately. The singers boobs were bigger, her hair darker, a little taller and sassier. I liked this chick. I think this wire will be very popular.
Black Sands Statement 1 was more refined and tonally accurate than the Kaplan, but not as emotionally stimulating which for Carl and Richard was a good thing. The music stands on it's own, with a light gloss applied, pretty, clean, sensuous, but still serious and extended. I think Richard noticed the Kaplan seemed a little less authoritative in the bass than Statement One, but I didn't concentrate on that so I didn't notice. I was captivated by the singer's voice. The Statement 1 more equally highlighted the transient sounds. The singer was more natural sounding, less puffed up, normal boobs on an swimmer's build, and she was more serious about her singing than on seducing me.
All these wires are extended and neutral enough to be serious players. Only the older Kaplan copper was not really in the same league. But the surprise at the low price end was the bright red BSA chrome. Clear and clean, no editorializing, no bigger boobs or powdered nose, but the music was alive and touchable. What a nice surprise. Silver was a notch more refined, on it's way toward Statement 1, all having very similar competent sound, with varying degrees of suave. Most of us in the NC clique own some Black Sands PCs because they are neutral but "friendly" sounding. (I know, Iknow... "friendly..." but you know what I mean when you start comparing the sounds of others that are less friendly, more horny or more IRS... it's crazy these stupid audio descriptors.) Always good value and service from BSA makes any of his PCs an easy choice.
For me I still like the JPS buttoned down authoritative precision. It is a house sound, but it is the sound of deliberate nothingness. You can feel it as a difference from other wire, but when you try to listen for it all you hear is "more." If you think about the JPS house sound in contrast to less controlled and more natural "flavors of copper" wires it is a little bit of a letdown. Why can't be as exciting as Kaplan? or as approachable and friendly sounding at Black Sand? Why is less more? Why is more better? Shit, am I really talking about power cords? I guess I'm in the right place at AN...
I think Kaptivator is similar to Aluminata without the thick aluminum particulate shield. And just like with the SC3 speaker cables similar to Aluminata without the particulate shield, I usually prefer the unshielded version to the Aluminata which puffs up the bass each time I've heard it (except as ICs.) Aluminata SC and PC is rich and warm, which will appeal to many, but I rather have the lithe bass detail than the comforting warmth. But Richard and Carl liked a lot about it.
JPS Kaptivator was my favorite of all. It fleshed out the singers bosom almost as well as Kaplan, but also gave her vulnerability, nerves, and tangible tonal detail and microdynamics that made her seem very real. I could fly into the music easiest with the Kaptivator. In last night's system, though, in direct comparison to the smoother sounding BSA and Kaplan, the Kaptivator sometimes seemed to put too much into the speakers. The added information was difficult to keep up with and created anxiety in comparison to the easy to swallow flavors of the others. If I wasn't already in heat for this girl because of the Kaplan experience I would not have enjoyed looking in her navel as much with the JPS. I think this was not fault of the Kaptivator, but of two other issues. The speakers aren't fully baked yet and didn't handle the extreme dynamic detail of Kaptivator with grace, and tempo of swappage was too fast to really get adjusted to each wire and absorb the more subtle aspects. Both circumstances were unavoidable, the night is only so long and comparing speakers was the main goal, leaving a shorter time for PCs. The speaker crossovers are expecting more subtle tweaks, this is only the first draft. Maybe the JPS Power AC+ would have been just right for those speakers and my mood at that moment in time, JPS clarity without the intensity of Kaptivator.
I think the treble on the Selah C8 is still a tad hot, but it was expected that there will be some fine tuning after parts burn in and Carl has some ear time with them. So in last night's context the new BSA Statement 1 and new Kaplan Rhodium had the best synergy. For my own system I would probably want to choose Kaptivator, but I might have the same issues and find a more relaxed wire better suited. Only extended listening can say for sure. These quick swaps are fun and give a basic DNA, but a lot goes undiscovered in fast swaps on one song.
Thanks to Paul and John for sending the wires down our way. What a blast it was to compare them all together on a such a revealling system.
Rich
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I like bigger boobs as a rule... :yay2:
Bryan
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Sorry I missed this... I was stuck in the heat.... the view isn't bad from my room, though:
(http://www.audionervosa.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=163)
I really wish I could have heard the comparison... would have been very interesting...
I'd be curious to see how much Carl's preamp changes with a few tube changes. I ordered a bunch of tubes for my unit and I'll be curious to hear whether any of them change how things balance in Carl's setup....
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Sorry I missed this... I was stuck in the heat.... the view isn't bad from my room, though:
(http://www.audionervosa.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=163)
I really wish I could have heard the comparison... would have been very interesting...
I'd be curious to see how much Carl's preamp changes with a few tube changes. I ordered a bunch of tubes for my unit and I'll be curious to hear whether any of them change how things balance in Carl's setup....
Oh yeah! We feel really sorry for you, being down in Aruba...and having to 'suffer' so :roll:!
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Rich, I do believe you've given us a whole new scale by which to measure the resulting sound from any component, wire or environment change :rofl: Let's call it seductivity!
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haha! Well whatever the scale Paul's wire is toward the top. Makes those whiny conceited modern audiophile sing-alike divas sound almost tolerable!
But I gotta agree with Carl about Krall's Kase of Yew. I connected to it with that system last night. The Butlers never sounded better. I think maybe that one that I borrowed from you Steve needed some wake up break in time which I did not provide. Back then I beleived a component only needed to be broken in once and subsequently only needed a 30 minute warmup. Now I know break in needs to be repeated after extended downtime. Oh the joy!
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My system's been running 24/7.. I like it in the 'ready mode' and don't mind paying the few extra cents to keep it all going... Plus (I like to think) it makes the gear last longer.
It was a really nice meet.. there was a lot to like and not much to 'not like'. I like the original C8's and the upgraded ones.. I liked all the power cords..
BTW, Paul will have to chime in on what his cables are called. 'The copper' was his cheapest one. 'The Rhodium' we didn't hear this time... we'd heard it before.. We compared his new one: 'The new stiff/thick one that costs like 7 or 800' Not a catchy name... but that's how I know them.
I'm looking forward to hearing those tubes as well, Shane.. Hope you're having fun, looks great!
Overall, the more I think about it, we were grading on levels of seductivity last night. We definitely need more women at these meets. ;)
-C
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It sounds like you guys had a busy meet but a lot of fun. I was sad to miss it but when I got home from the Eastern Shore I was just too tired to do audio justice.
Shane:
Our hearts are really bleeding for you! I just have one question, Why are you spending time on a computer? You are alone in a beautiful spot with a beautiful woman! Enjoy!
Ken
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I *think* the standard model is the HE with either the copper or rhodium plugs and the new stiff/thick one is going to be the HS. I can't say for sure but I've been playing with the new speaker cables and he mentioned something about the new power cord and I think it was the HS.
I'm sure Paul will correct this if I'm wrong. :)
mike
BTW, Paul will have to chime in on what his cables are called. 'The copper' was his cheapest one. 'The Rhodium' we didn't hear this time... we'd heard it before.. We compared his new one: 'The new stiff/thick one that costs like 7 or 800' Not a catchy name... but that's how I know them.
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Well dang! I've never heard my new power cords described as zaftig, but I'll take it as a compliment. Actually, with the proper applications of isolation/damping devices on the components, my new cables could also meet Spinal Tap's definition of 'big bottom'. 8) It all depends on the system. I've had a close encounter with Black Diamond Racing Cones, on the external power supply for my CAT SL-! preamp, for pity's sake, and it made the midrange less forward, and the bass deeper, yet more controlled. As a purveyor of snake oil, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that other flavors of snake oil are also effective.
I don't doubt that in Carl's system the new Black Sands were preferable, and appreciate the chance to demo my cables to you Southerners.
Those new, ungainly powercords were formerly nicknamed the H.S. (Holy Sh**!), but in the interest of nomenclature consistency, the cords are the GS (Gobsmacked) PCs, and the new speaker cables, GS SCs.
The GS PC I sent had 15amp NEMA copper connectors, also available in rhodium, and can be provided with a 20 amp IEC, or the new Powercon 32 amp connectors.
Many thanks,
Paul
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Many thanks,
Paul
And to you, sir!
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...my new cables could also meet Spinal Tap's definition of 'big bottom'.
Big bottom, big bottom
Talk about bum cakes, my girl's got 'em
Big bottom drive me out of my mind
How could I leave this behind?
sorry, just couldn't resist.
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Wow. If you didn't hear the new (GS?) rev Rhodiums, you're missing something. I have several on loan in my system for burn in/RMAF use. Serious improvement over both of the older ones and the coppers. They're not leaving...
Bryan
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Wow. If you didn't hear the new (GS?) rev Rhodiums, you're missing something. I have several on loan in my system for burn in/RMAF use. Serious improvement over both of the older ones and the coppers. They're not leaving...
Bryan
On both ....preamp and amp Bryan?
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So I guess we heard HE (High Efficacy) PC last night? And there's still another upscale version called GS (GobSmacked) which we haven't heard yet. That's something to look forward to. "Copper" and "Rhodium" models are obsolete. I think I got it now.
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Wow. If you didn't hear the new (GS?) rev Rhodiums, you're missing something. I have several on loan in my system for burn in/RMAF use. Serious improvement over both of the older ones and the coppers. They're not leaving...
Bryan
I have the rhodium GS-PC on my bass amp which really seem to provide a sharper kick vs. the copper. Previously I had it on my pre and it gave a very different sound than what I was accustomed to, can't really say if it was better or worse, just different.
By the way, I noticed it took about 3 days or 15 hours continuous for the new cable(GS-PC) to break the barrier.
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Rich,
I believe you heard 2 different KaplanCable power cords at Carl's GTG, both terminated in copper connectors.
The first, flexible ones, are the standard H.E. cords, and the second, one of my GS PCs which is the stiff bulky power cord, that Carl described as favoring neither tweeters, or woofers, but rather, hooters. 8)
Bryan,
Ummm..... I made another 2 GS PCs for your use at RMAF, but only one of them has Rhodium terminations. :duh I keep forgetting not everybody's system is voiced the same, or have the same subjective preferences. I naturally assume that like me, everyone would want a single rhodium cord for the amp, and coppers for everything else, in order to get the most balanced system. I've been wrong so many times, I really should quit even trying to guess......
Regards,
Paul
PS: AcidJazz???? - Martin, that's gotta be you.....
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We'll get there Paul. I have 2 of the Rhodium GS and 1 of the older Rhodiums as well as 2 older coppers and now, 3 new coppers. We'll get things balanced out.
See you Thursday.
Bryan
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We used the copper GS on the preamp.. at the time we were using Black Sand's on the amps. I know Steve's amps can show power cord differences as well... If we had 2 more GS's to do the full test, it would've been a nice representation of the 'Kaplan sound'. It's also nice to keep everything the same and swap one thing at a time to see what it does.... Since we had 1 cable of each of these types, that was pretty much all we could do.
-C
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Thanks for spelling it out guys.
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Understood. Gotta do what you can to level the field. I've been running the Rhodium GS on the amps and a copper on the preamp. I've not had the chance to hear the JPS nor the new BSC so my comments are purely from the standpoint of my system and in comparison of the new Kaplan to the older Kaplans.
Bryan